Article

2004-04-08 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tipper 2004-04-08 11:56:32 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Cut these people loose from the Arabs.

Freedom. They get it and they obviously know what to do with it. The difference between the Kurds and the Iraqi Arabs defines stark.

As a whole, the Arabs are perverse freaks of nature. They manage to combine a wide range of self-defeating and dead-end traits into a confabulation of blame and chronic self-cuckoldry -- a singular regression of the human condition -- and this they call their society.

The Iraqi Arabs, again as a whole, sadly meet the Arab "standard" as defined. The exceptions, and we know there are, indeed, outstanding examples - should leave. Go North, young man, go North!

As for the rest, just recall the picture of their outstanding "moderate" "leader" Sistani. He lives in the Caliphate of his mind. He defines insane. Chalabi? He's one of the more successful schemers of our age - and defines untrustworthy and duplicitous. The rest of the GC? Others, such as the Tribal Leaders? Is there a Jefferson or Washington in the lot? Is there a Saddam or ten?

Partition.

Forcing the Kurds to wait for the Iraqi Arabs to get a clue, much less change, is akin to shackling them to mankind's lepers.

Cut them loose.

Posted by .com 2004-04-08 1:06:59 PM|| 2004-04-08 1:06:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 I wonder if Murat or Aris would welcome an independent Kurdish state?
What would the argument against a Kurdish state be?

Posted by Les Nessman 2004-04-08 1:39:33 PM|| 2004-04-08 1:39:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Great post, tipper.

Right on, .com. I've always liked the Kurds, generally speaking. They will do a lot better if they're self-governed--but then, wouldn' t the Arab whackos just get jealous and accuse them of stealing Iraqi "wealth" and prosperity?

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-08 2:13:48 PM|| 2004-04-08 2:13:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 It is gratifying to see what the Kurds have done, even when they were only getting protection from the no-fly zones in the 90s. I have real problems with people who give their kids scalp wounds that cause bleeding all over (the Shiites). In most of the world, this is child abuse and the law would be all over you for doing it. That is only one symptom of that sick society.

My intuition says that we are giving Iraq our best effort at having representative constitutional government (democracy is the wrong word and is misused). It is an uphill battle. But if the Sunnis and Shiites cannot get their sh-t together, partition will take place. GW is not going to walk away from the Kurds. They are achieving what we are setting out to do in all of Iraq. If the Iraqis want a better life, they better starting choosing sides and run the Riff-Raff Rat Club out of town.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-04-08 2:22:14 PM|| 2004-04-08 2:22:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 This ppl deserve there own country,we should really give them one.

Posted by djohn66 2004-04-08 2:23:52 PM|| 2004-04-08 2:23:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 ex-lib - You bet they would, a perfect "Arab" response, in fact.

AP - I hope you're right about Dubya, but first we have to get him re-elected. Prez Skeery would echo the Arab response ex-lib points out, and prolly propose a "busing" type of policy: drag everyone down to the Lowest Common Denominator, rather than make the Arabs clean up their own mess. Just opinion based upon Donk history.

Posted by .com 2004-04-08 2:26:57 PM|| 2004-04-08 2:26:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Be it ethnically or linguistically the Kurds aren't emparented with Arabs or Turks so why should they live under Arab or Turkish domination?

Posted by JFM 2004-04-08 2:48:22 PM|| 2004-04-08 2:48:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 .com---that thing with Kerry and the dems is EXACTLY what I fear most. They do that with everything. Like in civil engineering with cut and fill, you take off the hill and put it in the hole and everything is average. The LLL takes off the top down to the level of the hole and then walks away. /analogy

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-04-08 3:11:58 PM|| 2004-04-08 3:11:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Les

arguments against a Kurdish state
1. Breaking up Iraq, will be seen across the arab world as against their interests, and will confirm what the antiamericans are saying, that this was an invasion to break up an arab country. IF you think that we need to worry about arab hearts and minds, this is a big consideration. If not, not.
2. Pulling the Kurds, the most democratic and secular element, out of Iraq, substantially increases the odds that the rest of Iraq will end up as neither secular nor democratic. IF you still think the project of establishing Iraqi democracy is viable, this is a big issue. If not, not.
3. What borders for kurdistan??? Kurdistan with only the 3 governorates that were under Kurdish control prior to Op Iraqi Freedom is A. Weak economically and B. Unable to protect the interests of fellow Kurds in Kirkuk. OTOH an independent Kurdistan that included Kirkuk is A. Subject to an ongoing intifidah by non-Kurds (Turkmen, Sunni Arabs, and Assyrian Christians) in Kirkuk. B. Reliant on US protection from a. Turkey b. Rest of Iraq

All in all, from the US POV, its a big mess, and worth going for only as a last resort, and questionable even then.

The best answer is to have the Kurds INSIDE Iraq, remaking Iraq in their image.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-08 3:22:25 PM|| 2004-04-08 3:22:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Agreed with LH. BTW when was the last non-voluntary, 3rd party controlled partition? I would guess it was someplace in Africa in the early 60's.

Posted by Shipman 2004-04-08 4:02:19 PM|| 2004-04-08 4:02:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 . OTOH an independent Kurdistan that included Kirkuk is A. Subject to an ongoing intifidah by non-Kurds (Turkmen, Sunni Arabs, and Assyrian Christians) in Kirkuk. B. Reliant on US protection from a. Turkey b. Rest of Iraq

Though I suspect Kirkuk would get pacified rather quickly and brutally, I have to agree with the rest, especially wrt Turkey. Talk about reviving 'Byzantine'! I'd also add Iran to the mix.

Posted by Pappy 2004-04-08 8:50:58 PM|| 2004-04-08 8:50:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Continue to let the Kurds amass monetary wealth and political influence. While Shiite and Sunni insurgents decimate their own populations, cities and internal economies, the Kurds will merely gain even greater preeminence. All the better for whatever pluralistic government rises from Iraq's ashes.

Posted by Zenster 2004-04-08 9:13:24 PM|| 2004-04-08 9:13:24 PM|| Front Page Top

12:13 Mr. Davis
12:05 Anonymous5060
11:57 Anonymous5059
11:45 Anonymous5056
11:38 Anonymous5055
10:41 Dar
08:45 badanov
07:41 B
07:41 B
07:33 B
07:29 B
07:27 B
07:23 B
04:54 Super Hose
04:48 Super Hose
04:41 Super Hose
02:50 Zenster
02:31 Jen
02:28 Jen
01:43 Not Mike Moore
01:27 Not Mike Moore
01:18 Not Mike Moore
01:11 CobraCommander
01:07 CobraCommander