Article

2004-04-05 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tipper 2004-04-05 9:27:39 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 It won't matter if they do exactly as told. The next demand will be for money, or "religous tolerance" or some other nonsense.

Posted by flash91 2004-04-05 10:26:17 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:26:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Shame we don't currently have a Spanish commentator posting at Rantburg. Some inside info on political developments in Spain would be most welcome. Any Iberian lurkers out there?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-04-05 10:55:50 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:55:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 So, Zappy, how's the truce with the terrorists holding up?

Posted by GK 2004-04-05 11:00:35 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:00:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Wow. AlQ is more emboldened than ever, since Spain showed they are afraid. Wonder how they're feeling now.

Posted by PlanetDan 2004-04-05 11:11:27 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:11:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 SEE! Appeasement does work!

Oh...wait......

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-04-05 11:56:23 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:56:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Bulldog

I grew in Spain and speak fluent spanish, I will post about it later.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-05 12:02:49 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:02:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Thanks, JFM. Would be much appreciated.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-04-05 12:10:15 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:10:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I am from Portugal to tell the true i dont follow Spanish inside politics closely but i can say Zapatero rethoric is going down, the Afeghanistan up troops card is one of the signs.
Here in Postugal even in some Socialists circles is a low level talk that Spanish election results were the worst possible.

Posted by Anonymous3991 2004-04-05 12:27:57 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:27:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Anonymous3991, your contribution's very welcome! Please keep posting.

When you say Zapatero's rhetoric is going down, you mean decreasing, right? How's he responding to demands the Spain pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan, now? I think he pledged more troops to Afghan before these new demands, didn't he?

The best way to try to regain a perception of the Spanish possessing cojones, and take the fight back to the Islamists (the only way to deal with this sort of thing, and the way Zapatero has very publicly and very consistently rejected), would seem to me, be to go back on his pledge to pull out if Iraq. How do you think public opinion might react to that?

Of course, now, he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, do pretty much anything...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-04-05 12:40:08 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:40:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 3991 - pulling out 1300 troops, only putting 250 into Afghanistan.

----

Bulldog - he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, --

Now Mr. Bean will know what it feels like to be an American......

Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-04-05 12:57:24 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:57:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 JFM, A3991. Way to go. Your nationwide now. (thats ZZ Top for being on top of things)

Posted by Lucky 2004-04-05 12:58:27 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:58:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Anonymous3991
Muito Obrigado!

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-04-05 1:20:53 PM|| 2004-04-05 1:20:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Looks like its not long until Euro children (the few there are these days) will become Janissaries.

Posted by Spot 2004-04-05 1:31:24 PM|| 2004-04-05 1:31:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Looks like you might have to fight them after all, Zappy.
Like it or not.

Posted by tu3031 2004-04-05 3:24:53 PM|| 2004-04-05 3:24:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Well, tu3031, he could adopt Yemen's "answer" and pay tribute. The only subsequent question is whether he could convince the Spanish to follow him into dhimmitude...

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 3:33:17 PM|| 2004-04-05 3:33:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I'm confused. I thought Dante was Italian.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-04-05 3:38:57 PM|| 2004-04-05 3:38:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Bulldog

I will give a background on Spanish mindset.

1) After Spain simmered into decadence the Spanish Army suffered defeat after defeat with the basic Spanish soldier finding not only that he was hoplessly outgunned (in 1898, Spain fielded wooden ships against the US navy), outequipped and outled but that going in the army meant to be badly fed and be abused by officers (think in an Ouzbek conscript in the Soviet Army). End result has been very low prestige for an army who collected defeats and little enthousiasm for going into wars.

2) For all of the XIXth century the favourite past-time of Spanish generals has been staging coups and fighting civil wars. Compound this with repression of strikes and of course Franco's dictatorship and the fact Spain hasn't been under danger of invasion since 1815 (and it was the guerillas not the Army who fought Napoleon) and you get vast sectors of the society, specially in the left who see the army more as a repressive corps and a danger as a genuine instrument of defence and of projection of Spain's power.

3) While Franco's propaganda exalted Spanish war heroes and spanish army it also insisted strongly on the untold length of time where Spain had been at peace and created what I call franquist pacifism. I remember when Franco died, a woman (who looked poor working class) interviewed and saying he hoped "much peace and much order". In addition when democracy arrived there was little in the right who was untinted of associating with Franco so the left had a field day for imposing its values like multiculturalism and pacifism (from the kind who didn't target the Red Army only ours). Combine this leftist pacifism with the indoctrination under Franco about peace and you get a spirit who would have made Chamberlain look blood thirty. I remember a teenager interviewed in 1986 telling: "If there is a war, we just have to not go, so no war". That is why when I heard about the bombings in Madrid and that the Socialist Party was trying to exploit I thought of that girl and I knew the Socialist would win: the Spanish who valued courage above everything, who resisted two hundred years to Rome, who set Don Quijote as an ideal, who told "Spain prefers honor without ships to ships without honor" and who resisted to Napoleon are no more. What remains is a bunch of "flower power" people who don't even want to go through the sacrifice involved in having children. Natural appeasers.

4) The USA are not popular in Spain: rencors about the 1898 war (the Spaniards DIDN't blow the "Maine"), about bad American behaviour in South America, about Spain being treated as a pariah after WWII (in right wing circles), about aid to Franco after 195x (in left wing circles) and of course europeism who sees America as the enemy, the fact that even the non-communist left is permeable to the "revolutionary" rhetoric from Cuba and similar places made for many people hostile to America and few people who felt they owed something to America: Spain didn't owe it a libertaion from the Germans and its geographical position made the danger from Soviet Union look a distant one so no gratitude for Cold War.

Now there are people (look at
http://iberiannotes.blogspot.com for a summary in English of what happens in Spain) who understand that Islamic terrorism threatens all of us but they are minority, probably even between right wing people.

However there is an interresting development: Spanish people have ever had a BIG inferiority complex toward France. EVERYTHING in France was deemed infinitely superior to its Spanish counterpart. So it was a big surprise that the other day in http://libertaddigital.com I found an article questionning what Spain could learn from France and scorning French economy and its leadership in Europe and the interest for Spain to back a country who had ver backstabbed her at every step.. Having Spaniards lose their admiration for France says many things about Chirac's performance.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-05 3:56:51 PM|| 2004-04-05 3:56:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 JFM - super summary! Thanks a lot.

Anonymous3991 mentioned that in Portugal even some left-wingers are expressing shock at the consequences of the Spanish election - do you think that feeling might be being mirrored in Spain itself?

You mentioned the Spanish questioning their following of France - is this perhaps a generational thing? Or are today's youngsters cut from the same political cloth as their parents? I can only hope that the continuation of terror attacks has opened some more Spanish eyes to the true nature of their enemy.

Thanks again for the analysis!

Posted by Bulldog 2004-04-05 4:37:19 PM|| 2004-04-05 4:37:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Yeah, Zappy, how's that appeasement thing working out for ya'? Have you laid in a supply of brown underwear yet?

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-04-05 5:09:32 PM|| 2004-04-05 5:09:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 franquist pacifism

Damn fine, JFM. Weird but true.

Posted by Shipman 2004-04-05 5:20:07 PM|| 2004-04-05 5:20:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 I only see the reactions in Spanish blogs and for now I see many LLL posts so I think most people still oppose war (don't forget however that only a minority of Spaniards have net access and most of them don't have the kind of cheap connectivity, read ADSL, needed to wander in blogs). But I also think that a number of Spaniards are now repenting of voting the Socialists not about the war but about economy and concessions to separatists (I am really, really afraid Zapatero will allow the implosion of Spain in order to gain the support ofbthe separatists).

The questionning of following France is not so much a generational thing that a political thing: the people who want Spain following its own path, against the "let's go to the UN, let's Europe rule Spain, let's the independentists have their way" people.

For Spaniards opening their eyes to terrorism, my generatin grew during the sixties, reading the adventures of Captain Thunder (a mix of crusader and Arthurian hero) so I think they could open the eyes. I am more pessimistic about the ones who grew during the late 70s and the 80s who had thir teachers and every TV star brainwash them into "piss, piss, piss, err I men peace" pacifism and edonism. Another problem is that the left controls the media and uses stalinist tactics to smear the right by accusing of fascism and of aspiring to dictatorship.

Now everything who goes one way, ends going the other way at a point, specially when Spaniards will begin to taste the bitter fruits riped by the Socialist Party.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-05 5:32:08 PM|| 2004-04-05 5:32:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 JFM,
Excellent summary. I just add that the Spanish army did in fact fight very hard against Napoleon -just not very well. Unlike other European armies that lost to the French, and then signed apeace treaty, the Spanish army just kept resurrecting itself after each defeat and coming back for a rematch - which they almost always lost. This is not common knowledge, the guerillas always got most of the press. The Spanish army does remember it though.

Posted by buwaya 2004-04-05 5:58:46 PM|| 2004-04-05 5:58:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I guess the left will never learn.

The vow to light up Span wasn't part of the deal. If Spain leaves Iraq and Afghanistan, Spain becomes a peaceful leftist little dhimmified country, and Al Qaeda leaves them alone. That was the deal.

Unfortunately, now they have no one to complain to. AQ sure as heck won't listen, and until the day Spain reverses its decision to bug out, the US won't either.

Posted by badanov 2004-04-05 6:50:26 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-04-05 6:50:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 JFM,
Another problem is that the left controls the media and uses stalinist tactics to smear the right by accusing of fascism and of aspiring to dictatorship.
Sure you aren't talking about the US?

Posted by CrazyFool 2004-04-05 7:30:36 PM|| 2004-04-05 7:30:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Bombersâ vow: Spain will be inferno

Great way to persuade other potential targets that they'll get off the hook by cooperating. This sort of counterproductive game plan is right up there with the fatwa against moderate clerics.

The beast is devouring its young and simultaneously biting the hands that feed it. Always a winning strategy.

Posted by Zenster 2004-04-05 9:54:54 PM|| 2004-04-05 9:54:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 JFM, I speculate that these next several months may be a watershed for the Spanish public. My guess is that June date for turnover is a set-up by Bush to force all the bad actors to lay their cards on the table before they can effectively plan attacks - 9/11 took years to plan. We will now go through a rapid period of rack-em and stack-em. I think that Spain is now a hard target and most of the cells are cleared out. What happens if Spain stands by bravely and Bush appears in Madrid to thank the Spanish people for their blood and steadfast support? Is that a step in changing the culture? I see the standoff in Korea being similarly cathartic for the Japanese. Maybe I'm just a sap who watched Miracle on Ice on too many times.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-04-05 9:59:44 PM|| 2004-04-05 9:59:44 PM|| Front Page Top

23:57 Zenster
23:57 Zenster
23:54 Zenster
23:54 Zenster
23:30 Zenster
23:30 Zenster
01:24 Frank
01:24 Frank
01:22 James TROLL
01:11 Baker TROLL
09:08 rkb
04:55 Super Hose
03:48 Pete Stanley
03:17 Super Hose
02:54 Murat
01:15 .com
01:06 .com
00:52 Alaska Paul on the Road
00:39 cingold
00:24 WhiteHouseDetox
00:18 ex-lib
00:17 Zenster
00:13 phil_b
00:04 Alaska Paul on the Road