Article

2004-04-02 Iraq-Jordan

Fallujah Sharpshooters Baffle US Troops, Who Murder Cameraman Filming Destruction of 8 US Tanks

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-04-02 1:47:19 AM|| || Front Page|| [11139 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Oh brother, what a load. I love how ALL of the film is conveniently destroyed and the cameramen, etc. are gunned down in cold blood. Suffices in the Arab mind for the lack of proof.

This fantasy lasts precisely as long as the planning for the Falljuah Bath. Not Ba'athist, bath. Just a straight-forward cleaning out of a slimy shithole which is harboring barbarians.

When it comes, will Jihad Spunup be there? Will they breathe a word of fact? Nahhh. Not likely.

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 2:05:31 AM|| 2004-04-02 2:05:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 What a crock of shit.

Too bad - I'd like the part about the U.S. cutting off the city to be true - permanently.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-04-02 2:12:14 AM|| 2004-04-02 2:12:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 In the Arab world, one can only hope.

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-02 2:24:14 AM|| 2004-04-02 2:24:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Barbara, according to Wretchard, the Marines established a cordon immediately, and the locals are already complaining that it's too effective.

Posted by Seafarious 2004-04-02 2:36:00 AM|| 2004-04-02 2:36:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Seafarious: Good!

That's what the Arabs appear to be best at - complaining.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-04-02 2:40:41 AM|| 2004-04-02 2:40:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Let's remember those five days of 1967 where Arab media were telling how the Israeli armies were being crushed.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-02 3:46:21 AM|| 2004-04-02 3:46:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Eight tanks! C'mon, be plausible, at least. What's next, they're committing suicide rather than face us?

Posted by gromky 2004-04-02 3:58:32 AM|| 2004-04-02 3:58:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 According to Washington Post three of the four killed in Falujah last Thursday, where excellent trained ex navy seals, I wonder what took them to Falujah without much precautions, sheer stupidity almost suicidal.

Posted by Murat 2004-04-02 6:28:41 AM|| 2004-04-02 6:28:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Murat, welcome back. Are you saying that of the four US civilian contractors from North Carolina -three were former Seals? And the Washington Post wrote that?

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-02 7:35:50 AM|| 2004-04-02 7:35:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Seafarious, good article - tells me what I've had a hunch on. We're not playing their game, we're playing our game. As we say in the Corps - you eat the elephant one bite at a time. They will learn.

BTW - I like how they talk about Fallujian sharp shooters - lol. Arabic sharpshooters, kind of like Italian war heros.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-02 7:39:16 AM|| 2004-04-02 7:39:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 One was an ex Navy Seal. ONE. The other were reportedly Veterans in the commercial sector. And if you're saying delivering food, which they were doing, is wrong then we'll just let Fallujah starve to death.

Posted by Charles 2004-04-02 7:39:51 AM|| 2004-04-02 7:39:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Remember, folks, for Murat American corpses are aphrodisiacs.

(Murat himself is a coward. He still hasn't provided the evidence he claims to have about my identity.)

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-02 9:07:36 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-04-02 9:07:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Murat your one scum sucking POS

Posted by djohn66 2004-04-02 9:22:17 AM|| 2004-04-02 9:22:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Hello Jarhead
take a look at: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4651943/

The three where ex military, with too much recklesness driving into Falujah, a too dangerous stupid move. May their souls rest in peace.

Posted by Murat 2004-04-02 9:34:21 AM|| 2004-04-02 9:34:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 But how could they destroy eight tanks? I thought our tanks had disintegrator beams on them?

(And gardernit, I kenna find the old Rantburg story from the war where some nitwit Arab paper was claiming that).

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2004-04-02 9:37:44 AM|| 2004-04-02 9:37:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 FOAD, Murat.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-02 9:41:55 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-04-02 9:41:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 F you too Robert

Posted by Murat 2004-04-02 9:53:45 AM|| 2004-04-02 9:53:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 You would think that after Al Jaz and company got caught in 03 making up stuff about how the US army was being destroyed outside Baghdad that they would control their rhetoric. I guess the Arab mind just doesn't seem to grasp the concept of 'fact'.

Posted by mhw 2004-04-02 9:59:22 AM|| 2004-04-02 9:59:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Murat: The three where ex military, with too much recklesness driving into Falujah, a too dangerous stupid move. May their souls rest in peace.

For once, I agree with Murat. This was a stupid move on the part of the contractors. In addition, I suspect they may have established a routine, such that the terrorists knew when to expect them. They either forgot their training or never bothered to use it.

I'm neither military nor ex-military - but a basic lesson on small unit tactics that I've gathered from reading Dave Hackworth's books is this - in guerrilla warfare, predictability results in casualties. And the cold truth is that soldiers learn from the mistakes of their predecessors. Those who don't learn, die. You snooze, you lose - respect the enemy's capabilities, or pay with your life.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 10:03:02 AM|| 2004-04-02 10:03:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 ZF, good points, chaging routine and the predictability factor is key in becoming a "hard target". Not sure what the deal was w/these guys - let's get all the facts before we assume anything. Though I agree w/you, on the surface this does look pretty bush leaguer.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-02 10:20:56 AM|| 2004-04-02 10:20:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Another (salutary) lesson that private security contractors in Iraq will draw from this incident is this - do not expect the US military to bail you out from messes of your own creation. Operate like a private army in hostile territory, not as rent-a-cops on a joyride through Indian country. Contractors need to start operating in convoy and inserting a little unpredictability into their schedules, meaning that trips or deliveries should be announced at the last minute to the recipients or not announced at all. Routes or reception points should be varied, such that it presents an insurmountable problem, from a coverage standpoint, to bands of roving terrorists.

Another side benefit of this incident is that it brought the roaches out of the woodwork. All that camera exposure of the hundred-odd people involved in the festivities will come back to haunt them. We now know their faces. We will get to know their names. Then we'll find out where they live. Eventually, we'll take them into custody and find out who has been giving them orders and paying them. Then we kill or capture the order givers and the paymasters and confiscate their cash and weaponry. It's slow and painstaking, but their time will come.

A third benefit from this incident is this - the media, in an effort to cow American public opinion, have released gruesome photos of the victims - something they avoided doing after 9/11 to avoid showing us the nature of our enemy. This will backfire on the media - these photos are certain to enrage middle-of-the-roaders against our enemies. The media are referring to Lebanon and Somalia as precedents for American withdrawal after atrocities against US personnel. But the fact is that both Lebanon and Somalia were rescue operations. Lebanon was carried out to rescue the PLO's leadership, and Somalia was a humanitarian operation. Iraq, by contrast, is an operation designed to cow the leadership of the Muslim world into submission - the message to them is this - "what happened to Saddam could happen to you if you continue fomenting and financing terrorists, whether actively or passively by tolerating these activities". The media, in its typically myopic manner, does not see that these atrocities will strengthen American resolve* rather than weaken it. And that is all to the good. We need them to keep those photos coming.

* Hatred, rather than resolve, is a better word - for the barbarians our servicemen are fighting.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 10:27:40 AM|| 2004-04-02 10:27:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 jarhead: Are you saying that of the four US civilian contractors from North Carolina -three were former Seals? And the Washington Post wrote that?

One was a SEAL, one was ex-Green Beret and another was former Army. But all the training in the world does not insulate you from stupid tactics. Commandos are not like Swiss Army knives - they are useful only in specific contexts. And one of those contexts is not making routine runs along pre-established routes into enemy-held territory. Special Forces are effective only when they are unpredictable and stealthy. Without these elements, they are just highly-competent infantry.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 10:37:49 AM|| 2004-04-02 10:37:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 ZF, more astute commentary, Hack's the man btw. I'd chime in to some that were wondering why the Marines didn't whack and stack rag-heads at that bridge right after the attacks - basically the commander's prolly knew the media fiasco and potential ambushes that awaited a relief force, weighed the options and felt that it wasn't the time to be baited into a public display of butchery - though personally I would've lmao seeing a hundred camel jockeys getting blown off a bridge w/a hellfire or two.

Next, icy professionalism needs to replace the gut instinct of anger. Hatred is great word. Anger can lead to recklessness, hatred is cold and calculating - that is where we must go psychologically. Respect those who give respect to us, destroy those who don't methodically and with extreme prejudice.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-02 10:47:25 AM|| 2004-04-02 10:47:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 It was a really really stupid idea to invade Iraq.Now look what has happened at Fallujah.If there hadnt have been a war those people who died might still be at home with their families.

Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-02 11:02:44 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:02:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 Well, that does it for me. I'm packing up and heading home with my tail betwixt my legs. Thanx, AW, you rock! Hell, I'm even gonna vote for Skeery to make my new status official.

Posted by .com (Abu Warmongerer) 2004-04-02 11:07:37 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:07:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 Yes, and if there hadn't been a war innocent Iraqis would still be being tortured and killed and brutally repressed by Saddam. Sucks, huh?

Posted by The Doctor 2004-04-02 11:07:48 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:07:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 Right on AW, we should never got involved in that American Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, 'Nam, or the first Gulf War because people got killed and were not at home w/their families. No one likes war moron, but it's often a necessary evil when there's assholes in the world who need to get dealt with.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-02 11:23:20 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:23:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 the Resistance was able to destroy eight US tanks and six Humvees.

Good to see Baghdad Bob has a new gig!

Posted by eLarson 2004-04-02 11:30:45 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:30:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 I'M not the moron Jarhead but I CAN tell you who is right are you near a mirror well stand up and walk to the nearest one and look into it,behold there is your moron. If war is the answer its a very stupid question.

Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-02 11:46:33 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:46:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 If war is the answer its a very stupid question.

LOL! Antiwar is full of deep thoughts.

Posted by Lil Dhimmi 2004-04-02 11:50:21 AM|| 2004-04-02 11:50:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Hey AW, as the bumper sticker on my car says (hat tip Protest Warrior) "Other than salvery, facism, naziism and communism, WAR NEVER SOLVED ANYTHING". What color is the sky in your make believe world?

Posted by remote man 2004-04-02 12:09:14 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:09:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Remote man what colour are the walls of the "rest home" you live in? I'ts important to take your meds dont spit them out next time.

Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-02 12:15:46 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:15:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Antiwar: If war is the answer its a very stupid question.

Actually, war has been the answer for a lot of questions, for both just and unjust causes. One question was whether Americans would live free of British tyranny. The answer for that was in the affirmative, *after* the War of Independence. For the Chinese, the question was whether China would live under Communist rule. The Chinese Communists got the answer they wanted, *after* they destroyed the Nationalist armies. The questions weren't stupid - what is stupid is the assumption that people go to war for no important reason. These are thought-out positions, positions for which people are willing to risk their lives. Anyone who belittles them as stupid has no concept of the realities of this world.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 12:18:02 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:18:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Zhang you obviously approve of state sanctioned murder you are one sick bitch/bastard.

Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-02 12:22:58 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:22:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Pearls before swine, ZF. ;-)

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 12:27:28 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:27:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Antiwar: Zhang you obviously approve of state sanctioned murder you are one sick bitch/bastard.

Antiwar obviously approves of peacenik-sponsored suicide. That's probably wrong - she probably approves of state-sponsored killings as long as the killers are on the other side. She is one maladjusted traitor.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 12:28:26 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:28:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Atta girl AW, grab that crapet between your teeth and give it a good shake, make the spittle fly. I just love your tender liberal sympathy for the 85% of Iraqis who suffered under Saddam. Maybe we shouldn't have fought Hitler and Tojo huh? If that were the case, then you would be speaking Japanese or wouldn't even be here because your parents would have been killed. I can appreciate pacifist sentiments when they are combined with logic. You don't seem to fit that profile.

Posted by remote man 2004-04-02 12:28:29 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:28:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 This post was supposed to run yesterday, right? --as an April Fool's joke?

Antiwar says: Â Â It was a really really stupid idea to invade Iraq. Now look what has happened at Fallujah.If there hadnt have been a war those people who died might still be at home with their families.

Yeah, and if we hadn't gone in, Ouday could still be picking women off the streets at random to suck his ugly dick at gunpoint. Iraqi women even now are organzing services of mourning and protest. What we did was absolutely wrong. Additionally, all who spent a warm and fuzzy time in one of Sadaam's many torture chambers really regret our actions. Now they have to just get gone and get home! What a complete drag. And that isn't even the end of it! The young children who were taken from their families and put in prison--they are crying their eyes out now. Imagine--they'd be there to this day if it weren't for our intervention. Damn us and our war against Iraq!

NEWSFLASH: This just in: The Iraqis beating the statue of Sadaam with their shoes were guys US forces rounded up in Kuwait, who were then forced to march across the desert on foot without food or water. They were told, before cameras arrived, that if they didn't make the revelry and partying look convincing, they'd be shot later. The whole thing was nothing more than a photo op for the Marines. (Those silly guys! What will they think of next? Guess they'll just have to start a war somewhere else. Everyone's getting bored of the Iraq story. The West needs a new buzz.)

Antiwar, why is it that I just don't buy it that you're as stupid as you like to pretend you are?

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-02 12:30:34 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:30:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 AW, you're so right, I am a moron......
Moron enough to believe you could ever possibly utter one fucking logical sentence without the same old tired bullshit pansie-assed grab-asstic liberal dogma. I'd suggest putting down the bong, as well as the chomsky and che' biographies for a second and reading a history book. Your also full of shit btw - no way your of Irish descent - your obviously too fucking stupid w/out any articulation and have no stomach for fighting - got to be a belgian or parisian trying to pass yourself off as a mick. On second thought, your posts are so incoherent that it sounds like your drunk off your ass - so maybe you could be a mick. Some advice - maybe should call yourself anti-brave, anti-smart, anti-brain, or aunti-bore - take your pick.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-02 12:33:48 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:33:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 AntiWar - please you are in lala land. The invasion of Iraq has done more good than bad - at least from an American perspective. The leadership of countries that were enemies before 9-11 and our enemies after (and some that were so-called allies before 9-11) have been put on notice that the status-quo is over and America is coming. And it is working, the increase in terrorist/enemy state activity shows a level of deperation we have not seen in OUR 25 years of confrontation.

If you think that by appeasing and hoping for the best is solution to the current situation/leadership of the middle east is the answer then the western democracies are doomed. You are probably sitting back in a comfortable middle class existance totally withdrawn from the realites of the world. Decisive action is required and the events the other day in Falluja will happen again. It was not a spontaneous reaction but a cold blooded calculated event. It is the enemy we face.

I remember reading a post awhile back where it was stated you are Australian. If true remember that only decisive action in the Solomans kept Australia free from Japenese domination. If your attitude prevailed Australia would be part of the past.
And in the current situation Australia knows who their real freinds are who are just talk. Australia is in a tough niegborhood and will need support one day to deal with Indonesia.

Posted by Dan 2004-04-02 12:45:53 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:45:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 It's sad to say, but Antiwar is a committed idiotarian and trying to reason with her is wasted effort. As .com noted above, this is a case of putting pearls before swine. She's a creature of conviction, an ignorant, blinkered fool, and possibly too set to change her ways. There are people out there who are receptive to arguments like yours, but from what we've seen so far, Antiwar's not one of them.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-04-02 12:59:08 PM|| 2004-04-02 12:59:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 BD / All - So true, BD. Y'know, in her perverse unintentional way, she certainly serves at least one purpose: You get a TON of literate, cogent, and considered responses - all of which serve to sharpen the points under discussion. At best, such as this thread, I'll offer that she was a Socratic burr under the RB saddle, heh. I love to mix metaphors... This is an excellent thread - kudos all for such clear comments, I sure as hell appreciate them even if they are lost upon Dear Aunti! 8^)

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 1:07:46 PM|| 2004-04-02 1:07:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Bad tactics get people killed. The CIA guy in Afghanistan (Spahn) was got killed because he was violating everyone of the "five S's" of POW handling (search, segregate, silence, safeguard, and speed). That doesn't mean that he was a bad guy. In fact he was a Great American. He just screwed up one time. That's all it takes.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 1:16:22 PM|| 2004-04-02 1:16:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Let's not forget that these guys weren't heading into battle -- they were going to a security job, guarding food. Criticizing their tactics makes it sound like they were headed into a battle.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-02 1:25:36 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-04-02 1:25:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 RC: With all due respect, when you are in an area infested with guerillas (or jihadis) _everything_ you do is tactical, including breathing, crapping and sleeping. You literally do not take a shit without someone pulling overwatch on you.

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 1:36:22 PM|| 2004-04-02 1:36:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 Robert Crawford: Let's not forget that these guys weren't heading into battle -- they were going to a security job, guarding food. Criticizing their tactics makes it sound like they were headed into a battle.

These are great guys, and their mistakes do not detract from that. But they weren't glorified rent-a-cops, not with the $1000 a day pay they were reputedly getting and the fact that seasoned pros like them were hired instead of four out of the masses of unemployed Iraqis. The terrorists had shown their willingness to kill random Iraqi bystanders, American civilians, UN staff, non-American civilians - you name it - it was a target. It was silly for them to assume that they were somehow safe from attack - again, they were hired for their combat expertise, not for their good looks.

Why do a post-mortem, since they're already dead? So that their sucessors will not repeat the mistakes of the past. If our attempt at pacification of the Muslim world fails, and a really big bomb detonates in an American city, killing hundreds of thousands, we may find ourselves personally responsible for holding down a stretch of turf in one of a bunch godforsaken Muslim countries, this time (hopefully) after significant battlefield preparation (i.e. hundreds of thousands of artillery rounds and of aerial bombs).

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 1:44:32 PM|| 2004-04-02 1:44:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 ZF: An excellent point and one that AW does not seem to grasp (among others). If we are not successful and the Islamofascists detonate an atomic device on US soil, there will be millions killed in our response. As RB'ers have pointed out in the past, no other response will be politically acceptable. We have to succeed in our current effort. The alternative is grim.

Posted by remote man 2004-04-02 2:01:02 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:01:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Points taken, but I just don't think any of us have all the information available to say they fucked up. Sometimes you can do everything right and everything still goes wrong.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-02 2:14:39 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-04-02 2:14:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 How the fuck old are you Anti-war?
You debate at a level slightly higher and more cognisant than a telly-tubby. I frequently pass turds that could make anti-war arguments several orders of magnitude better than your puerile dribblings. You are positively remedial, but you are serving a purpose around here. Just like a freak on Jerry Springer you can be the source of a readers immediate, powerful, irrefutable and inherent knowledge of his clear mental and linguistic superiority to yourself. In hard times it can always help "cheer you up" to compare your musings with an illiterate, cancerous polyp of the rectum of society. Keep up the good work cocksmoke.

Thought for the day:- You can't polish a turd.

Posted by General_Haggis_McFuckchops 2004-04-02 2:17:25 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:17:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 GenHMc, according to her, she's a thirtysomething aussie. Scary.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-02 2:19:56 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:19:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 The words of John Stuart Mill come to mind:

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

Replace the male gender references with female ones, and the result applies to "Antiwar" perfectly.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-04-02 2:20:57 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:20:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Jeez, how pathetic. In response to legitimate criticism founded on facts, AW pretends to be clarivoyant and a Psychologist, degrading rapdily to juvenile "so's yo' mom!" rejoinders. Hell, even Murat responds with SOME facts, rather than AW's pseudo-compassion hiding a heartless regard for the tens of thousands of Iraqis saved from Saddam's dictatorship. Nice and comfy in her snug little hole is AW, totally clueless as to what it takes to protect her. We know better. She doesn't.

Just a reminder. SHE SUPPORTED KEEPING A DICTATOR IN POWER. WE DEPOSED A DICTATOR. SHE SUPPORTED A LEECH DRAINING THE IRAQIS. WE ARE SPENDING GOOD MONEY TO GET IRAQ BACK ON ITS FEET. Given that, she's lost all moral authority, and she knows it, being able only to mouth pseudo-pieties and snarl juvenile rejoinders.

Posted by Ptah 2004-04-02 2:26:16 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-04-02 2:26:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 I just don't think any of us have all the information available to say they fucked up.

I concur. In addition, the outrage here was not that a few ex-military guys were killed, but what the savages did to the bodies afterward.

Also remember that those little shitheads we see cheering on every photo are probably used as spies and for early warning, like in Somalia. Especially in a smaller city, it doesn't matter what route you take or how many changes you make to it.

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-02 2:27:36 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:27:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Robert Crawford: Points taken, but I just don't think any of us have all the information available to say they fucked up. Sometimes you can do everything right and everything still goes wrong.

Four of them went off together in a single vehicle. Just off the top of my head, I would have used two vehicles to diffuse the number of targets. And four people is too few. Four people is fine when you're part of an A-team in the middle of nowhere. But four people in the middle of a densely-populated city of a quarter-million people?

Even active-duty US troops don't do that, and they have on-call air power and airmobile quick reaction teams. The military stopped sending lone humvees out in hostile territory after a few incidents with the locals that resembled this one, without the bridge interlude. From then on, it was convoys all the way, with air cover to provide backup firepower.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 2:30:03 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:30:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Rafael: In addition, the outrage here was not that a few ex-military guys were killed, but what the savages did to the bodies afterward.

I was enraged in the immediate aftermath, but a thought occurred to me - these guys are dead. No one can hurt them any more. These savages can put the cadavers through a meat grinder, and it still wouldn't do more damage to them than has already been done. They're gone, and we still need to finish the terrorists off. From a practical standpoint, what happened to them was no different from what happened to the four US civilians who were killed just days ago. The key is to learn from their mistakes and move on.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-04-02 2:37:48 PM|| 2004-04-02 2:37:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 cut them off so they have to drink their own urine and eat their own crap until every foreigner, every weapon, and everyone responsible is handed over.

Posted by anymouse 2004-04-02 3:09:22 PM|| 2004-04-02 3:09:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 cut them off so they have to drink their own urine and eat their own crap until every foreigner, every weapon, and everyone responsible is handed over.

Posted by anymouse 2004-04-02 3:09:27 PM|| 2004-04-02 3:09:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-04-02 3:57:04 PM|| 2004-04-02 3:57:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Anyone who would vote for Dubya has got to be a raving lunatic.

Civil, well reasoned discourse at it's finest.

Posted by Raj 2004-04-02 4:13:38 PM|| [http://angrycyclist.blogspot.com] 2004-04-02 4:13:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 I am apparently the type of calm, level-headed sort of raving lunatic that can punctuate correctly.

I am sorry that you believe that all in the world is madness, and I'm sorry that not all problems can be solved solely by talking them through during neatly packaged 30 minute episodes.

A perfect case in point: all the rational responses in this thread cannot convince you to change your position, "Antiwar". Similarly all of the civilized chat in the UN Security Council could not convince the French, the Germans, the Russians or the Chinese to change their positions. (Their positions being held, most likely, due to nothing more complicated than economic interest.)

I won't impune your sanity. That is not for me to know or to judge. All I ask is that you consider the arguments for and against war with an open mind. You do consider yourself to be open-minded. Don't you?

Posted by eLarson 2004-04-02 4:14:10 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:14:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 I'd argue with you Antiwar, but I have to go now. Pottery class starts in five minutes. Nurse Ratched says that if I play nice and don't make a mess this time, I'll be able to watch TV next week!

Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-02 4:30:45 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:30:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Antiwar - please give some substance and not this childish rubbish. the same type of people who voted for Bush (His name is Bush - have some respect. We even refer to Clinton by his name) are the same type of people who would vote Howard.

Just what type of world do you live in? Where mankind loves they neighbor? You cannot make someone like you and you cannot run and hide when they want to hurt you. Hoping that your love of peace and fratenerty will sway them. This just fuels the fires of fascism. These people are dogs and when dogs smell fear they pounce.

The more you comment the more you show yourself to be nitwit. The world is a dangerous place and you should be thankful that there are people who are willing to sacrafice so we all can live in freedom.

Post comments with merit and intelegence. You may think everyone hear is a lunatic for having strong feelings but at least they can articulate a point of view. You do not even try to appreciate another point of view , very typical left attitue, it is either your way or no way. Well if the west (in praticular the US) had the same view we would all be paying tribute to our Islamic masters. Not the world I want to live nor my children. Things do not change cause this is the same stance that my grandfathers generation took when fighting fascism earlier this century.

Posted by Dan 2004-04-02 4:38:27 PM|| 2004-04-02 4:38:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 11A5S - Do you guys have the old kick-it flywheels or the new electric kind? Everything I do turns out to be an ashtray. Sigh. ;-)

Posted by .com 2004-04-02 5:06:58 PM|| 2004-04-02 5:06:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 Better to die on your feet then live on your knees, Antiwar.
I got a feeling you're pretty familiar with the second part of that statement.

Posted by tu3031 2004-04-02 5:13:53 PM|| 2004-04-02 5:13:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 What is it this world you idiots live in?

The REAL World&trade.

Look into it sometime.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-04-02 5:26:15 PM|| 2004-04-02 5:26:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-04-02 6:27:37 PM|| 2004-04-02 6:27:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Aunty, the day you'll be "vindicated" is the day that Life for most of us will no longer be worth living.
I, for one, will do everything I can to make sure that black day never dawns for you and your ilk.

Posted by Jen 2004-04-02 6:32:30 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-02 6:32:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 [Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Antiwar TROLL 2004-04-02 6:40:05 PM|| 2004-04-02 6:40:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 It's JENNIE, like Churchill's mother, thank you.
And life under your Leftist Nanny Police State wouldn't be worth living, but that's not going to happen because President Bush is going to be reelected and Conservatives are taking this country, at least, back.
Here's hoping it will happen in Britain and Australia, too!

Posted by Jen 2004-04-02 6:46:59 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-04-02 6:46:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Holy smokes folks! Antiwar is just another toungue pierced, coffee stand, brains in butt protester who does not believe in "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of those who threaten it". Don't give it so much attention ... it wanks off to it ... spend your time instead email Anne Coutler and telling her she rocks!

Posted by Beau 2004-04-03 12:50:34 AM|| 2004-04-03 12:50:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#71 Be rest assured folks that any article from "Jihad Unspun" is loaded with a lot of wishful thinking for the
arab world. It's time the residents of falujah and their foreign fighter friends discover the power of the BLU-82 "daisycutter" shat out at them from the back of an AC-130. Kill them all!

Posted by Anonymous4100 2004-04-08 7:05:26 PM|| 2004-04-08 7:05:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-02 3:57:04 PM|| 2004-04-02 3:57:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-02 6:27:37 PM|| 2004-04-02 6:27:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]

Posted by Antiwar 2004-04-02 6:40:05 PM|| 2004-04-02 6:40:05 PM|| Front Page Top

19:05 Anonymous4100
11:40 ex-lib
10:46 Anonymous4020
22:18 .com
21:31 Anonymous3999
13:16 Valentine
13:03 Zenster
01:25 .com
00:50 Beau
00:49 Bomb-a-rama
00:34 Zenster
00:18 Zenster
23:48 Zenster
23:43 Barbara Skolaut
23:29 .com
23:17 Phil_B
23:07 Anonymous2U
23:04 Anonymous2U
23:03 RWV
22:59 True German Ally
22:56 Alaska Paul
22:51 Traveller
22:44 Jen
22:44 Edward Yee