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2004-03-22 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-03-22 1:43:11 PM|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Time to send out the new F22's - we'll see who bounces whom...

Posted by mojo 2004-3-22 2:00:04 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:00:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 The F-15's design is over 30 years old, just to be clear on the age difference. I'd like to see a Eurofighter/F-22 matchup.

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-3-22 2:05:19 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:05:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Sam -
Normally, I accept with little or no rservation anything from StrategyPage - its founder, Jim Dunnigan, is one of the absolute best at what he does (though damned poitically incorrect, which is why he didn't show up much during OIF), but this says nothing that proves to me that the F-15 has lost its crown.
First of all, the F-15s from the 48th were E-model StrikeEagles, the air-to-ground version of the Eagle. Although the Strike Eagle is just as capable at air-to-air as the standard C and D model Eagles, its pilots are not trained to the same extent in air -to-air - their job is to put weapons on target. A good comparison would be if you had a great deal of experience driving high-performance sports cars on a highway, then you were told that for a couple of years, you'd be driving the NASCAR version in races. You could do it, probably quite easily, but the little things would be different - you'd be practicing and learning things differently every day. All of our pilots right now have slightly rusty skills because we are just now coming out of the 'No-Fly-Zone' mentality. They are not as good as they should be. With that in mind, remember that the Typhoon drivers were probably some of the best pilots the RAF has in service right now. Had they bounced guys from our 33rd FW, or my old friends at the 1st FW at Langley - who live, eat and breathe air-to-air - I think it would have been a different story.
Second, the Eagleis not the 'best' dogfighter in the world and has never claimed to be. It is superbly maneuberable, but its design philosophy (just like that of the F-22) is to use missiles to kill the enemy, and then take on what's left - if necessary - with the gun. I have sat in the God Room at Nellis AFB during Red Flag exercises(think the briefing room in the movie 'Top Gun', only with three huge screens) and watched F-15s getting whacked on a regular basis by F-5s (a fifty year old design), F-16s (a 25 year old design), F-14s ( a 30 year old designs), and F-18s (a 25 year old design) and several others. The best jet powered dogfighter is quite probably the Northrop F-20 TigerShark, armed with AIM-120 AAMRAM missiles...and we didn't build that one. But the primary purpose of the F-15 is to do what Indiana Jones did to the Arab swordsman in 'Raiders of The Lost Ark'...and if we came up against a Typhoon -equipped opponent in real life, that is exactly what we would do.
The article does have one very valid point, but doesn't state it as such: the first contact between an established combat aircraft and a new, state-of-the-art threat usually ends up with the newer system victorious...at first. The USAF has an extremely steep learning curve, and in combat it would,'t take long to figure out how to handle it - and more than likely, we'd just stand off and throw missiles at them.
I intend for NONE of this to take away from the RAF and its skills and abilities. They should rightfully feel a great deal of pride in being able to take on 2 F-15 and win. The Typhoon is and will remain a formidable opponent for many years. But any story like this taken at face value leaves a lot out, and this story leaves out a great deal.

Best regards,
Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2004-3-22 2:19:26 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:19:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 it wasn't as clear cut as the above report makes out though,do some looking into it and you find that the 2 F-15's, both E models incidently, were returning from a bombing range (practice) and were bounced by a couple of Eurofighters from the 7'oclock. Give the Alaskan Based F-15s with thier AESA radars and watch them mince the Euros,still loads of life in her yet.

Posted by Shep UK 2004-3-22 2:19:27 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:19:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Still, with all the good press, I imagine the French will be able to sell quite a few of them to China.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-3-22 2:28:30 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-3-22 2:28:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 The French are not part of Eurofighter. They wanted lead, didn't get it, and instead designed Rafale.

Posted by ed 2004-3-22 2:34:26 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:34:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 When the Typhoons actually shoot down a plane, give me a call.

Posted by Shipman 2004-3-22 2:35:58 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:35:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Mike - GREAT post!

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-3-22 2:37:10 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:37:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Agreee. Weight and Balance and configuration on the E model is considerably different than the C/D. "Considerably" here means different enough to affect the outcome.

In any case an F16 can turn inside of an F15C/D/E.

Posted by anymouse 2004-3-22 2:39:47 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:39:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Not quite an Article 15 but a Letter of Reprimand. Extra duty.

BTW, I got one of those Letters. Missed two Comanders Call (in a row!), Ouch, it was my day off, I was sleeping, nobody told me, I worked late the night before. Piss'n and moan'n.

Posted by Lucky 2004-3-22 2:41:32 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:41:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 this is why I read Rantburg

Posted by Frank G 2004-3-22 2:54:27 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:54:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 thanks for summing it up way better then i could have mike.I tried :) .You must have been posting earlier when i was so i didn't see your post before mine went up if ya get what i mean.Thanks for a better summing up anyway.

Posted by Shep UK 2004-3-22 2:59:59 PM|| 2004-3-22 2:59:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 The French are not part of Eurofighter. They wanted lead, didn't get it, and instead designed Rafale.

I stand corrected.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-3-22 3:05:28 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-3-22 3:05:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Frank, you mean, you think Mike actually knows something about weapons systems? He didn't even include color-coded cutaway diagrams of the two planes with his post.

(Mike, just kidding. Diagrams not necessary. I'm truly impressed.)

You never see this kind of thing on the DU site.

Posted by Matt 2004-3-22 3:56:36 PM|| 2004-3-22 3:56:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 MIG-31, anyone? Not to put a fly in the ointment, or the last SU ?

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-3-22 4:02:32 PM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-3-22 4:02:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I thought the F-15 lost its title when the Independence Day aliens showed up.

But seriously, great posts, guys. I should get course credit at Rantburg.

Posted by Scott 2004-3-22 5:21:48 PM|| 2004-3-22 5:21:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Its all part of the deal Bush made with Blair:

1. Release the 5 British bozolamists from Gitmo
2. Take off the steel import duty
3. Get Sarah Ferguson a job with Weight-Watchers
4. Give them light duty in Basra
5. Let the Eurofighter win one
6. Put Gibraltar firmly in the UK camp by having the Spainards elect a real bozoidiot

Posted by Jack is Back! 2004-3-22 6:11:20 PM|| 2004-3-22 6:11:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Did anyone notice that this was from Strategypage's hot discussion topics section and not actually an article put out by Dunnigan. Any moron could have posted this including someone who is trying to make sure the f-22 is not scrapped. How accurate is this report? I have no idea, but I would like to see something with a bit more authority than this. Take a look at some of the other hot topics. You cannot tell me that "T-95: the end of M1A2 Superiority" and "China: EVIL AMERICANS" were not written by Russian and Chinese trolls respectively just looking to get a good rise out of people.

Posted by matt 2004-3-22 8:15:32 PM|| 2004-3-22 8:15:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 An advanced jet fighter with a coward european flying it...is just a plane.

It ain't the size of the dog in the fight,
It's the size of the fight in the dog.
There ain't no fight in a european dog.

Posted by Texan 2004-3-22 11:38:55 PM|| 2004-3-22 11:38:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Kind of tough for the RAF to be 'comfortably gunning the trailing one'when the RAF version has no cannons...

Posted by CAG Hotshot 2004-10-17 7:14:25 PM|| 2004-10-17 7:14:25 PM|| Front Page Top

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