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2003-09-19 Europe

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Posted by Tokyo Taro 2003-09-19 7:21:46 AM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I feeling pretty shocked at the moment..

Posted by Dcreeper 2003-9-19 9:48:28 AM|| 2003-9-19 9:48:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 While I'm willing to bury the hatchet, I'm somewhat skeptical: Liberals and trolls have a habit of pre-buttering their outrageous demands with statements like this, giving themselves an out of "I tried to be statesmanlike and was rebuffed."

Deeds, not words.

Posted by Ptah 2003-9-19 10:01:21 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-9-19 10:01:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 NO offense to TGA, of course: He, and many other sensible Germans, are the reasons why I WANT to bury the hatchet with Germany.

Posted by Ptah 2003-9-19 10:04:55 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-9-19 10:04:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Actions speak louder than words, but I do like the sound of these words. I'll be convinced when the first German deployment orders are issued.

Posted by Dar 2003-9-19 11:11:41 AM|| 2003-9-19 11:11:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Aye, aye, Matey, burying the hatchet.

In phrawnce....

Posted by Anonymous 2003-9-19 11:29:42 AM|| 2003-9-19 11:29:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Something weird is going on. When I saw "By GERHARD SCHR$B%h(BDER" I started laughing until I realized that there's no joke there. Using a different character set, yes? :)

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2003-9-19 12:52:55 PM|| 2003-9-19 12:52:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Ha! Take that Chirac! No sweeter sound than that of France being marginalized...

Posted by mjh 2003-9-19 1:13:48 PM|| 2003-9-19 1:13:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Interesting opinion piece obviously meant to sway the American readers.

TGA, what are the German press saying about this?

Itâs true that rhetoric does not always match deeds. For example, while Schroeder and Fischer were decrying the invasion of Iraq, the Wehrmacht was supporting the effort. Anti-chemical warfare teams called the Fuchs Panzers were stationed in Kuwait as part of Enduring Freedom (wink,wink). I believe in a least one case the Fuchs Panzers were deployed into Iraq to support our troops during an investigation, exploitation, of a suspicious chemical dump or factory.

Posted by Gasse Katze 2003-9-19 2:56:28 PM|| 2003-9-19 2:56:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Reading this carefully,I get 2 impressions.
1)We want in on the rebuilding contracts in Iraq.We have done you a lot of favors so it's payback time.
2)Like it or not,Germany is committed to a United Europe.Since Germany's future is in a United Europe,we will have to do things the US might not like,but it's business,nothing personal.

Posted by Stephen 2003-9-19 5:36:05 PM|| 2003-9-19 5:36:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 Thanks for the flowers. I could have written some lines of this but certainly not all.

Anyway, this is no surprise. It's certainly true that the serious German press has pointed out the irresponsability of the French stance and the necessity for Germany to do something. German media has been quite blunt about the lofty European statements about Iraq as well. Europe has no Iraq plan, so it shouldn't go about demanding things which are not only impossible, but downright absurd. German media also don't believe that the U.N. can replace the U.S. in Iraq.
So the question just boils down to this: Can we just sit quietly and watch the U.S. or should we help. It's true that every help will come with a price tag but I think the U.S. knows best about the fact that there are no free rides. Poland, Denmark or Spain don't provide their help for free either. But it comes with the sense of a common responsibility. And that's something Chirac doesn't share.
As for the "sweetheart oil contracts": Germany (to my knowledge) didn't barely have any. Germany certainly was involved economically in Iraq but more on a point to point basis: contracts with Iraqi firms rather than with the Saddam government. ( No claim of innocence here, but selling a machine to a Iraqi company is not quite on the same level as getting oilfields from Saddam at bargain prices.)
When I said yesterday that Bush should put the last 12 months behind, it did refer to the wrong and stupid tunes that came from Germany, but which were sometimes matched by shrill replies from Washington. The Bush-SchrÃ¶der meeting in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel still is very low in protocol (not Camp David, the White House or even the Ranch), but it's a starter. I think SchrÃ¶der is ready for compromises he can sell, let's see what Bush can do.
Btw on Sunday Bavaria goes to the polls. The conservative CSU is poised to pull about 60% of the votes, the SPD a mere 20%, the Greens 8%.
Don't writer Stoiber off as the next chancellor just yet.
So the New York Times declares war on France and SchrÃ¶der gets to write there a day later. Honi soit qui mal y pense...

Posted by True German Ally 2003-9-19 9:22:01 PM|| 2003-9-19 9:22:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Sorry to rain on your parade TGA but wasn't Germany the country building Osirak that the Israelis destroyed--Germany acts as much in its economic self-interest as France does--so don't be dis-ingenuous on that point

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-9-19 10:52:15 PM|| 2003-9-19 10:52:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Osirak was a French reactor, that Jacques Chirac, then French Prime Minister, personally sold to Saddam in the late 70s. German companies did trade with Iraq in the 80s (like everybody else including the U.S.) and did sell quite a bit of "dual use" technology (machinery for the chemical industry). Also weapons of joint French/German production were sold, via France because Germany's regulations about exporting to no NATO countries were (and still are) very restrictive. Nobody covered himself with glory in the 80s. Remember Iraq was then see as a bulwark against fundamentalist Iran.

NMM, show me one country that does NOT act in its economic self-interest. I'm just saying that the Germans weren't nearly as much in bed with SAddam as France was. The trade Germany made with Iraq was mainly machinery and technology (water pumps, electricity plants, medical equipment etc) that still is in high demand for the reconstruction of Iraq. Actually I believe that going with the U.S. would have served Germany's economic interests much better while France couldn't expect to keep its very lucrative oil fields obtained under a most preferential treatment from Saddam.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-9-19 11:13:07 PM|| 2003-9-19 11:13:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Yes TGA, Ve knew nothing, nothing--it vuss those damn French

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-9-19 11:31:33 PM|| 2003-9-19 11:31:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I seems that you verify your sources just the way the real Mike Moore does. Just don't let real facts stand in your way. And if you re-read my statement you'll find that I'm not excusing my country. You mentioned Osirak as German built and it was French. Sorry if that doesn't meet your requirements.

Posted by True German Ally 2003-9-20 12:11:25 AM|| 2003-9-20 12:11:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 OK TGA, I stand corrected--but Germany looks out for its national interests just as much as "phwrance" does--only they are excoriated for it by the Rantbourgeoisie

Posted by Not Mike Moore 2003-9-20 2:02:25 AM|| 2003-9-20 2:02:25 AM|| Front Page Top

18:36 Anonymous
11:33 whitecollar redneck
09:52 Aris Katsaris
08:03 raptor
06:22 Ptah
03:37 SteveS
02:11 Not Mike Moore
02:09 Not Mike Moore
02:07 Not Mike Moore
02:02 Not Mike Moore
01:57 Not Mike Moore
00:11 True German Ally
00:08 Charles
23:44 True German Ally
23:42 whitecollar redneck
23:34 Aris Katsaris
23:31 Not Mike Moore
23:26 Pappy
23:13 Not Mike Moore
23:13 True German Ally
22:59 Aris Katsaris
22:52 Aris Katsaris
22:52 Not Mike Moore
22:45 Not Mike Moore