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2003-08-22 Middle East

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Posted by Slim 2003-08-22 2:56:46 PM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Im not sure that the assumption that arabs respect power implies that they scorn attempts at reason - merely that reasoning must start from a base of power, and not from real or apparent weakness.

Also I would say that there is a real misunderstanding of American policy. Certainly there seems to be very little realization of the pressure the US has put on Israel to refrain from action in the face of provocation. There are certainly a wide range of misconceptions in the region - look at the large number of people who expected Israel to expel the Palestinians during the Iraq war, or who think that 9/11 was a US and/or Israeli conspiracy. In that context its not unreasonable to think that there is also misunderstanding of more subtle aspects of American policy. Itt is also true that there is great deal of incitement in the region - often from sources like the Egyptian press and Saudi clerics that are effectively under govt control.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-22 3:03:02 PM|| 2003-8-22 3:03:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 I DO NOT THINK THAT YOU ARE CORRECT. THERE IS NOT MISUNDERSTANDING IN THE PART OF THE ARAB WORLD. THEY WANT WORLD DOMINATION AND IT IS IN THE OPEN IN THE ARAB PRESS. THEIR LIES ABOUT BEEN VICTIMS BY THE AMERICANS AND THE ISRAELIS. IS FOR US, STUPID INFIDELS.

Posted by Anonymous 2003-8-22 3:26:08 PM|| 2003-8-22 3:26:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Slim, what is there to "misunderstand"? Islamic radicals blow things up (and the people unfortunate enough to be near-by). Islamic radicals preach that Americans and other "infidels" must either be converted or killed. Islamic radicals openly speak of one day dominating the globe and enforcing their beliefs upon others.

There isn't any room or need for dialogue with those blind enough to think that way.

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-22 3:47:48 PM|| 2003-8-22 3:47:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 what is there to "misunderstand"? ...

See liberalhawk's comment above.

Islamic radicals blow things up..

What percentage of the population are Islamic radicals? 1%, 5%, 10%? We have proven, and rightly so, we can kill that 10%.

That leaves 90% of the Muslim world that are not interested in violence and, I would venture, are eager to have a good relationship with us. I think that the ultimate success of our efforts lies in strengthening that population. Why fight the radicals when we can a moderate, US friendly population would eagerly do it instead.

To bring that state of affairs about, we must engage the moderates. They need a political vision of their own success. Brow beating them will not cause them to accept a vision friendly to us. Only leadership and listening, which require pride swallowing, will bring them to our vision. Beating the moderates up in forums like this does not help.

Murat is telling us something in his distrust and frustration. Ask yourself, would it not be better to have him as an ally instead of an enemy. Someone who could take our case to the Muslim world in its own language. In your desire to score points, are we instead turning away potential allies like Murat?

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 4:29:09 PM|| 2003-8-22 4:29:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Murat has expressed that his distrust is based heavily on a sense that Turkish troops were betrayed during the Korean war. Whatever the truth of that, i doubt that most of whats going on in Turkey is explained by that, and certainly none of whats going on the rest of the world. Murat may be a nice guy, but I dont think hes real representative of the muslim world. I could be wrong of course/

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-22 4:34:22 PM|| 2003-8-22 4:34:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Slim - but the question is how to reach out to the moderates? What is nature of the dialogue and with whom? Far too often we hear that its not the US "they" hate, its the US policies? Which policies? supporting Musharaff? Supporting change in Iran? Almost every such policy is appealing to some in the muslim world but not to others. The policy that people who make that case most often bring forward is US policy toward Israel. All our problems in the muslim world are attributed to that. So when someone says that explaining our policies better wont help, the implication seems to be that we must change our policies - IE press Israel to do things dangerous to its security, in order to avoid losing the 90% (though i fear the number is lower) of moderates in the muslim world. Many of us have a lot of problems with that. Aside from being a deep injustice, it would show - well - weakness - and would therefore NOT advance our cause.

Should we engage in dialogue - YES. Should we better explain our policies - YES. Should we especially emphasize nationbuilding in Afghanistan and elsewhere - YES. Should we dump our allies in a vain bid to influence opinion - NO.

Posted by liberalhawk 2003-8-22 4:42:04 PM|| 2003-8-22 4:42:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Well - this is Rantburg, so ...
I don't give a f&*k what they think or want anymore. Any culture that devalues themselves so much as the Paleo death cults, the Paki jihadis, the Syrian islamonazis, the corrupt Soddy "princes", the honor killings, the march back to the 7th century, the subjugation of women and girls, the efforts at keeping the population ignorant and obediant to half-educated clerics has NOTHING to teach me and absolutely NOTHING that I owe it. F**k their cultural sensitivity. If Israel and the U.S. were as bad as they fantasize (to justify their stupid jihads and fatwas) we'd have dropped MOABs on Faluja and Tikrit and Gaza and the West Bank. Riyadh would be a smoking hole and Americans would be telling the Soddys where and how much to drill and tip them a nickel for the effort.

thank you, but I prefer a superior culture, and I'm not apologizing for it. Carrot time's over...Cluestick is out of the holster....

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 4:53:29 PM|| 2003-8-22 4:53:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 btw - thank you Fred for letting me vent - $25 in the tipjar

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 5:06:39 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:06:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Frank, I feel better just having read that rant.

Posted by Matt 2003-8-22 5:09:50 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:09:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 "Moderates" my ass, Slim! TRULY "moderate" people speak out in DISGUST when radicals blow things up and kill people. Yet all one hears is the endless echo of SILENCE from the Mosques in this country and abroad whenever these whack-jobs strike.

There is NOTHING "moderate" about cowardice (if THAT is what causes them to refrain from rebuking the radicals). Screw them, screw any culture that is so f*cked up that it behaves in such a manner, and screw wasting valuable time and energy on a culture that has proven to be backwards in every measurable respect (human rights, human expression, science, technology, academics etc).

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-22 5:29:08 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:29:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Cluestick is out of the holster....

And then what? Cluestick has been out of the holster and it is not working. Frankly Frank, we are failing.

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 5:34:25 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:34:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 "Cluestick is out of the holster.... And then what? Cluestick has been out of the holster and it is not working. Frankly Frank, we are failing."
Posted by: Slim 2003-8-22 5:34:25 PM

Yeah, sure Slim. Its a quagmire I tell ya! (Take another look. And stop pretending that your supposed "enlightened" approach to dealing with these thugs has any merit--for all of your bluster about "understanding", you overlook the fact that YOU are just another INFIDEL to them and that they'd just as soon kill you as they would any of the rest of us.)

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-22 5:40:14 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:40:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 think so? Ask Saddam? OBL? Mullah Omar? Iran? Assad? Bandar? Having 130,000 armed troops on their borders is starting to sink in...
"not working" sounds like ver 2.0 of the Quagmire complaint.

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 5:40:49 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:40:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Slim:

Pursuing Flaming's point: Please give examples of "moderate" forces in the Islamic world that are actively speaking/doing something to oppose the Islamofascists ? And, then explain how those examples represent "90%" of the population, not simply a brave handful of individuals you can count on your fingers.

Frank G.: Thanks dude, you made my day too !

Posted by Carl in NH 2003-8-22 5:41:10 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:41:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Flaming Swords - some kinda deja vu, huh?

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 5:41:48 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:41:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 No doubt Frank! Slim probably thinks the UN could solve all of this by simply holding a conference on the matter where every country could share their "feelings" on the matter!

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-22 5:51:58 PM|| 2003-8-22 5:51:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 the conclusion about 'opening a direct dialogue' is basically psychobabble. There is more than one 'arab' viewpoint and more than one 'american' viewpoint. This makes a dialogue fundamentally impossible or irrelevent.

Posted by mhw 2003-8-22 6:04:18 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:04:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 You are making my point for me. The diatribes do little good beyond short-term emotional gratification while they alienate any one who dares to think differently. Is our current policy going to get the results you desire?

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 6:08:07 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:08:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 "Is our current policy going to get the results you desire?"
Posted by: Slim 2003-8-22 6:08:07 PM

Let's see:
Iraq--moving towards democratic society
Saddam--in hiding or dead
Iran--destabilized
OBL--dead or cowering in a cave without electricity, running water, and the ability to coordinate attacks

Yeah, current policy seems to be working just fine!

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-22 6:13:04 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:13:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 The diatribes do little good beyond short-term emotional gratification while they alienate any one who dares to think differently.

Muslim diatribes and lies are something they really need to think long and hard about. Just as it was impossible to meet the Soviets halfway - it is also impossible to meet "moderate" Islam halfway - this so-called Muslim moderation is the product of wishful thinking in the West. We accept their lies and they become friendly with us. I don't think so. Like that other discredited system, Communism, they should accept our truths, and we'll become friendly towards them.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-22 6:15:05 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:15:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 The Arabs want respect but as an American I find it hard to provide respect to anyone who calls me an imperialist. It insuslts my intelligence. If I wanted to build an empire, I certainly wouldn't start with Afghanistan. Half way across the world seems kind of far to go to annex a contry whose greatest naterual resource is an abundance of landmines. If America wanted an empire, we would grabe the Bahamas or something else in teh Carribean, a place with nice beaches. You know a good vacation place with a Callypso atpmosphere. Bahrain might seem like the playboy mansion to a Saudi, but frankly I prefer Brazil for a vacation.

Posted by Steve D 2003-8-22 6:15:17 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:15:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 it was impossible to meet the Soviets halfway...

We never invaded the USSR and we worked very hard at building a coalition called NATO. To alienate our allies with "Axis of Weasels" cracks was unthinkable then (even when the French caused us fits). How does such behavior help our cause now?

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 6:39:25 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:39:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 they should accept our truths...

And if they don't? How do you convince them of our truths?

give examples of "moderate" forces in the Islamic world

Every joe on the street who spends most of his time watching the news and wondering instead of bombing us. They are the audience we need to win.

Let's see: Iraq--moving towards democratic society

I hope. And I wish luck to every soldier and worker trying to establish it. I suspect they spend most their time trying to build productive relationships. I wish their were 10 more divisions like them interacting every day with the arab world. They are our best ambassadors.

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 6:54:17 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:54:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Finally we agree--we BOTH wish there were MORE well-armed and well-trained American military personnel "interacting" with the arab world!

Posted by Flaming Sword 2003-8-22 6:56:55 PM|| 2003-8-22 6:56:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Our military's professional actions and attitude are something the Arabs should want as role models, instead we hear they "seethe" and the arab street "boils with anger". When you treat a child who throws tantrums without reason, is it wise, Slim, to give him exactly what he wants at every turn? Or to use discipline and fairness to demonstrate that there are rules, actions/consequences? Cuz I see the arab world as children, throwing tantrums, welcoming a strongman as Daddy, and needing a real adult to model themselves after. Just as with children, this "quagmire" won't be a 4 month model, and giving in is a recipe for failure. I reject your theory, sorry

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 7:06:11 PM|| 2003-8-22 7:06:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 We never invaded the USSR and we worked very hard at building a coalition called NATO.

We never invaded the USSR, but we never ceased to confront them in every proxy war they launched against non-Communist states. Reagan pioneered the concept of rollback to reverse some of the losses incurred during detente. The so-called NATO "alliance" was a mechanism for us to insert ourselves into any Soviet invasion of Europe, that was in no way reciprocal except in theory.

To alienate our allies with "Axis of Weasels" cracks was unthinkable then (even when the French caused us fits). How does such behavior help our cause now?

Allies? What allies? They're neutrals, not allies. Allies are people who actually contribute front-line forces. These guys are contributing token forces, hoping that we'll remember them if they ever run into trouble. And the morons that we are, we still have mutual defense pacts with these fair weather friends.

Way before the New York Post coined the term the Axis of Weasels, Europeans were calling Americans arrogant, imperialist and oil-obsessed. Bush was called simplistic, Hitler, a moron and a bastard by senior "allied" officials. By comparison, the Axis of Weasel term simply conveys the idea of disloyalty, and it was put forth by a tabloid paper. Compared to the filth spilled forth by European papers, the New York Post tweak is such a nit that only someone predisposed to anti-Americanism would see it as remotely significant.

Europeans papers and academics did not hide their contempt for the US even before 9/11. Now that our papers, which were previously oblivious to European hatred, are making some tart remarks about them, Slim wants to tell us off for saying that we feel betrayed? Maybe he should move to Europe.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-22 7:09:37 PM|| 2003-8-22 7:09:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 And if they don't? How do you convince them of our truths?

We don't - we convince them that they had better bury their hatred for us in a deep dark place rather than attack us - the alternative being their annihilation. Dialogue did not work with Japan and Germany and it won't work with Muslims, whose specialty is attacking civilians.

Every joe on the street who spends most of his time watching the news and wondering instead of bombing us. They are the audience we need to win.

We'll never win them, any more than we'll win over the KKK or the Socialist Workers Party here. If we do not overrun their countries and kill large numbers of them, the best we can manage is a cold peace. Their countries indoctrinate hatred for America from the day they start school. The only way we'll change their minds if we conquer them and rewrite their history books, the way we did with Japan and Germany. They'll reform, but only at the point of a gun.

Note that Murat, a supposedly "moderate" Muslim, still holds to the "facts" he learned in school that are incontrovertibly wrong, and Turkey is an "ally". The virulence of the filth taught in non-allied countries will have to be read to be believed.

These guys are standing aside not because of any particular goodwill towards the US. Contrary to bin Laden's assertion, Muslims do not love death as we love life. The truth is that they're a bunch of backshooters, brave when they manage to get the jump on their victims and cowardly if confronted. Millions of Japanese fought to the last man, refusing to surrender even when their commanding officers were killed in action. The Muslim will take every opportunity he can to surrender. There were 100 million Japanese, of whom millions fought to the finish. There are 1 billion Muslims, of whom maybe tens of thousands perished, most involuntarily under a hail of bombs. Whatever word anyone might associate with Muslims, courage should not be one of them.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-22 7:23:46 PM|| 2003-8-22 7:23:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Thank you for the articulate responses.

I still don't follow you. I would rather have 10 rowers in my boat instead of me alone spinning in circles.

An example of how an ally helps:

When the soviets deployed SS-20 missiles in the late 70's, the Reagan administration wanted to deploy Pershing II and cruise missiles in Europe. The European left wing mounted a camapaign to stop it.

Two of the crucial players in making it happen in the end: Francois Mitterand and Helmut Kohl. To quote from "Architects of Victory: Six Heroes of the Cold War" by Joseph Shattan:

"In 1983, Mitterand emerged unexpectedly as the chief European supporter of the American plan to deploy intermediate range missiles. Mitterand campaigned for the missiles."

Reagan's plans could have been thwarted without these allies.

I don't see how we are going to win without allies. Would we have won let alone fought without Kuwait? or Egypt? Yes Egypt, 90% of the war materials came through the Suez canal. Even Germany was a sleight of hand ally in this war. We moved beaucoup soldiers and material through Germany. With good allies all is possible, without, we are on thin ice.

Are we building allies by our actions or are we ruining possibly fruitful relatioinships?

Especially with a meager 10 divisions. An
invasion of Iraq without an invasion of Syria and Iran was not a good idea. Why is George Bush afraid to ask us to sacrifice? Why does he not expand the Army. Is there no active planning for post-war?

Maybe he should move to Europe

Been there, done that. I am an ex cold-warrior like my pa before me. I have seen ally building up close. It takes time and effort. Why are we unwilling to make the effort?

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 8:22:09 PM|| 2003-8-22 8:22:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Slim, although I understand your rowers in a boat analogy, that overdoes it. (In fact, we were 38 rowers at one point before I lost count, and our boat moved quite fast after we finally left the French limpdick standing on the shore shouting impotently at us)

In fact, as you point out, we were successful in the war due to the assistance of several nations.

So, what's your point ? Clearly, we are doing something right. We can't necessarily win over everybody all the time, and I and many other Americans have come to realize that the price required to win over everybody is not justified by the return. (referring to the UN security council vote last winter before Iraq)

Posted by Carl in NH 2003-8-22 8:37:32 PM|| 2003-8-22 8:37:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Slim >> Sorry to be the military history geek, however, the US did invade Russia.

The American "Invasion" of Russia
A little known episode in American history is the landing of American troops in Russia to fight the communists. The United States, along with Canada, Great Britain, France, and Japan became entangled in the civil war which followed the Bolshevik revolution. It was World War I and the Soviet government had negotiated a peace treaty with Germany removing them from the war. America and its allies joined with the White Russians, who promised to stay in the war, to fight the Red Army. To Americans, this campaign is a little known minor incident of World War I. But to the Russians, this was the "American invasion."

Pulled from: http://www.historywiz.com/invasionrussia.htm

If anyone has ever trained at NTC (the National
Training Center) at Ft. Irwin, you've fought against "The Polar Bears". This regiment were those "invaders". Ironically, they play as the opposing forces (OPFOR) (the Russians) for training purposes.

Frank G >>> Psssssst! This Bud's for you.

The problem with most people in the touchy feely, warm hug camp is that they simply cannot think outside of thier own box.

Tribal Arabs don't think like us.

Liberians (with those fancy wigs and canibalistic practices) don't think like us.

France, (and their people who are too stupid to drink enough water) don't think like us.

They simply don't hold the values that the western world does.

These people "moderate" or otherwise won't be happy until everyone is praising Alf-Alpha. It's kind of like a religious version of communism. Except there is no room for dissent because you're disobeying God and not merely the state. How dare you say God is wrong. Surely then you must be punished (read as killed).
Don't you find it slightly odd that it tooks all of these long years of terrorist activities before these Chief Hoopla Clerics in Saudi declare that it's "not cool" to be radical? Did the Riyadh bombing and the fear of a general uprising and government overthrow help them "discover" this?

The fact is, It's gonna be long. It's gonna be bloody, and things will happen in the future that will make the 9-11 attack look like a water ballon fight. These people only understand the power of force. Read the regions history. Those who forget it are doomed to repeat it.

Last Note: From a military standpoint, the operation is going splendidly. Even combined with the first Gulf War and the Afghan War, casualties are still extremely light. The press just need to sell papers and the Democrats will do anything to get out of the dog house with the voters. (Now that last part is truly a "chaotic quagmire of incompetance" if I've ever seen one.

Posted by Paul 2003-8-22 8:46:01 PM|| 2003-8-22 8:46:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Slim, your comments are very well put and I commend you for them. I might even be of a mind to negotiate with the Arab world if I hadn't spent most of 911 frantically trying to find out which of my friends were alive and which were dead; or if I hadn't smelled the stench in the city a few weeks later. My number's in the book -- if "moderate" Arabs want to negotiate with me they can effing call me. The great disgrace of 911 is the utter failure of Arab moderates unequivocally to condemn (and act against) the actions taken on 911, and I'm a long way from forgiving them for that.

Posted by Matt 2003-8-22 8:55:07 PM|| 2003-8-22 8:55:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Paul, Matt, Flaming Sword - thank you - I figured I'd get a flame back but what the f*&k? :-) ...we hold certain truths, right? I don't understand this "we can all get along" curriculum when the other side's not even interested in teaching it....

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 8:56:26 PM|| 2003-8-22 8:56:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 You win. I bow down before your conviction. I hope you are right.

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 9:24:36 PM|| 2003-8-22 9:24:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 *Yawns* Back on Topic. The essence of the article is a rehash of the "We Arabs are misunderstood, and it's YOUR FAULT! It is YOUR FAULT that you do not have a centralized propaganda program like us. It is YOUR FAULT that your explanations of your actions are distorted by Liberals, our Imams, and our state controlled media that edits what we see and hear from you! It is YOUR FAULT that we are constantly bombarded by our media telling us that you are telling us lies to cheat us out of our oil!"

And then Slim comes around, looks at the Arabs flailing on the floor, legs kicking, face turning red, then turns to us and says, "certainly, we are so superior that we can open up a closed mind! Certainly, we need to approach regional public diplomacy in a fundamentally new way, opening a direct dialogue with the Arab and Islamic world through its already existing and increasingly influential transnational media."

Pardon me, but the organized process of a government systematically transmitting its view of itself to people is a definition of PROPAGANDA. Isn't that EXACTLY what Osama thought our haphazard, profit-motivated, decentralized, businessman-to-customer oriented, chaotically liscentious and dangerously UNCONTROLLED communications process ALREADY IS? And this moron's solution is to turn what we, the people, not our government, say about ourselves, and which drove Osama crazy with it's insidious, blatant, unintentional honesty, into WHAT HE AND EVERY MARXIST ON THE PLANT DELUDED THEMSELVES INTO THINKING WHAT IT WASN'T?

Let me tell you this: An incredibly rich and successful man who pulled himself up out of poverty by his own efforts IS NOT OBLIGATED to obey, in any way, shape, or form, the frenzied screams of a pathetic, impoverished, unwashed, unshaven, uneducated looooooser screaming, at the top of his voice, "YOU MUST UNDERSTAND MEEEEE!"

In fact, he has every right to question the intelligence of the effete, self-pretentious, self-righteous dandy standing nearby who tells HIM, in a high pitched, snobby voice "You know, you really must! He seems so frustrated, he might resort to violence!"
-----
I won't take up Fred's bandwidth to answer slim's discussion of "allies". Let's just say that Chirac is no Mitterand, that Shroeder is no Kohl, that the USSR and the Warsaw pact were a hell of a lot closer, nastier, and with nastier stuff ACUTALLY POINTED at France and Germany than Iraq, with whom they had a nice, cozy, business relationship they could count on.

We Americans confuse allies with being friends, forgetting that the Soviets were our "allies" once. People change. Nations change. Grow up, go with the flow, and get used to it.

Posted by Ptah 2003-8-22 9:26:39 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-8-22 9:26:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 Egh. I composed the above while slim posted on 9:24, so I didn't see his concession speech.

Sorry for the rant, Fred.

Posted by Ptah 2003-8-22 9:28:45 PM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-8-22 9:28:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 ptah - first chuckle I've had PM today lol

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 9:51:22 PM|| 2003-8-22 9:51:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Sorry, ptah. I will un-conceed just for you.

When will we stop pussy-footing around with a measley 150,000 troops? We might as well get it over with and go nuclear. 150,000 doesn't cut the cheese.

By the way, I know what pretentious is, but what is self-pretentious?

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 9:53:46 PM|| 2003-8-22 9:53:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Ok - tag team! I'll jump in! Nuke wouldn't allow us to directly harvest our OOooiiillllll
(Bwahahhahahh.....)
too many roentgens..........

Posted by Frank G 2003-8-22 10:13:14 PM|| 2003-8-22 10:13:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 I just read a 13 year old article by Bernard Lewis on "The Roots of Muslim Rage" at http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/90sep/rage.htm
and I have to say that, as un-Christian as it may be, we need to just get on with the crusades and wipe out the competing culture to the extent that it will not assimilate. The raging will not be subdued with any diplomacy, democracy, or humanitarian handouts. Freedom of religion stops the minute the unruly mob emerges from the mosque, and all the suicide-prone may as well be sent on their way ASAP.

Posted by Tom 2003-8-22 10:39:40 PM|| 2003-8-22 10:39:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 When will we stop pussy-footing around with a measley 150,000 troops?

We pacified Japan with 100,000 troops. Japan had 5 times Iraq's population, was a completely alien culture (Shinto Buddhists) and was 100% yellow-skinned. We destroyed Japan's cities; most of Iraq is intact. Japan had no significant natural resources; Iraq has oil.

The occupation of Iraq so far has been easier than the occupation of Japan. Given the gutlessness of the Muslim fanatics relative to the Japanese, I just don't see how it's going to get harder for us.

People tend to look at Israel as a sign of what awaits us in Iraq. That analogy is completely wrong. The Israelis are having real problems with the Palestinians because of self-imposed restrictions on what they will do with the terrorists. Israelis are like the Byzantines - they spend more time bickering with each other than fighting the enemy. Is it any wonder that they are in a continuous state of stalemate?

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-22 10:49:43 PM|| 2003-8-22 10:49:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 The emperor essentially gave the people their marching orders to cooperate n'est-ce pas?

I always figured the Israelis did not go to town because we always told them no before anything decisive could happen.

P.S. Who is scanning my ports?

Posted by Slim 2003-8-22 10:58:14 PM|| 2003-8-22 10:58:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 The emperor essentially gave the people their marching orders to cooperate n'est-ce pas?

Made no difference. The emperor wasn't some kind of absolute dictator. He was a puppet of the Imperial Japanese Army, who gave him his marching orders. He wasn't opposed to the war, but he wasn't calling the shots - Pearl Harbor would have happened whatever the emperor's views were. No real surprise there - for hundreds of years, Japan was ruled by the Tokugawa shogunate, a hereditary dictatorship that sidelined the emperor. Japan's military caste simply picked a new figurehead. The Japanese army was on its way to abduct him when he put out the surrender proclamation. Japanese deadenders continued disappearing American soldiers caught unawares for years.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-22 11:11:03 PM|| 2003-8-22 11:11:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 I always figured the Israelis did not go to town because we always told them no before anything decisive could happen.

That's completely wrong. The Israelis are a First World nation. They can stand on their own two feet. The reason they don't stand up to us is because of their screwed-up internal politics where they feel that being true to themselves trumps preserving the lives of innocent Israelis. They don't need our money and they don't need our weapons - everything they use can be purchased through the black market - the ex-Soviet bloc countries will sell to anyone with cash.

The reason the Israelis have done this to themselves is because of bad leadership. They will not make the sacrifices needed for the country to become independent of American influence. They also have no idea how much more pull they could have if they unilaterally cut off the US financial aid that hangs like a noose around their necks. The US is not going to let Israel be overrun. Period. No matter what anyone says. What the Israelis need to do is really stretch the envelope* and really stick it to the Palestinian terrorists. When the deed is done, their leaders won't be able to vacation in Europe because of fear of persecution. But the Israeli people will no longer have to live in fear of Palestinian terror. Will it happen? Nah - Israeli pols are too worried about their own skins.

* in the way that the South Koreans are testing the strength of American commitment with the "sunshine policy"

Posted by Zhang Fei 2003-8-22 11:23:29 PM|| 2003-8-22 11:23:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Zhang, you're absolutely right. There's an analysis of the Israeli political psyche sitting on my hard drive touching on that very subject which I'm getting up the nerve to post, for fear of being falsely labelled anti-semitic.

Slim: Ah, a private term that snuck out,

Pretentious-pretending that you are better than everyone else.
self-pretentious-a description of the demographics of the people who *believe* that you are better than everyone else.

I.e. the show is so obvious, nobody is taken in except the performer,

Posted by Ptah 2003-8-23 9:05:35 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2003-8-23 9:05:35 AM|| Front Page Top

09:05 Ptah
04:02 Anon1
03:40 Anon1
23:47 Dishman
23:23 Zhang Fei
23:11 Zhang Fei
22:58 Slim
22:52 Brian
22:49 Zhang Fei
22:39 Tom
22:13 Frank G
21:53 Slim
21:51 Frank G
21:28 Ptah
21:26 Ptah
21:24 Slim
21:18 Alaska Paul in Nome
20:56 Frank G
20:55 Matt
20:54 SOG475
20:46 Paul
20:37 Carl in NH
20:34 SOG475
20:22 Slim