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2004-12-28 Southeast Asia

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Posted by Zenster 2004-12-28 3:27:33 AM|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I am not criticizing your analysis. I am criticizing your timing. Do you really think people carrying bodies to the morgue are going to listen to the Great White Hope telling them it was all their fault?

A more effective approach, in my opinion, would be to provide disaster relief and while providing it, get the affected peoples used to the idea that this is preventable, and gosh here are some things you can do to prevent it, and we'll help you implement them.

Most of the people in the area have never thought of holding their governement accountable. And many people in the area believe on a religious and not logistical level, that while things like earthquakes are punishments from God, what we in the west would consider simple precautions, i.e. earthquake/tsunami detections, will also call God's wrath upon them for trying to predict the future.

In some places, you don't even ask a farmer what he thinks his crop output for the year is going to be, even if he has farmed the same plot of land all his life, because to ask him to predict the future means 1)you are mocking him or 2) you are insane and not worth talking to.

So do you want to be right or do you want to be effective? If you want to be right, go ye' forth therefore and rub everyone's nose in it for all you're worth. You have the facts.

For myself, I would prefer in the face of 55 000 dead and still climbing, wounded still in the hospital, and bodies still washing ashore, to be kind and hope those acting on my behalf in the area will be effective.

If you would like to bring up the idea of linking foreign aid with transparancy and freedom ratings after the screaming stops, I will also be happy to join you in that effort as well. I have long wondered why Mexico gets so much money when they barely make the "free economy" list. Why not demand they implement measures to liberalize their economy and then help them do it. If you want to file a lawsuit against the UN as a "Friend of All the Tsunami Dead who Could have Been Saved if You Weren't such an Inept Bunch of Weasels", I'd be happy to join you in that too.

But withholding disaster/emergency relief in the face of over 55 000 dead? I am sorry to disagree so violently, as I do respect your opinion on many other matters you have written about here, but that is just not right.

Posted by Adriane 2004-12-28 3:36:01 PM|| 2004-12-28 3:36:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 Do you really think people carrying bodies to the morgue are going to listen to the Great White Hope telling them it was all their fault?

The point is, to a huge extent, it's not their fault. It is the fault of misappropriating and corrupt governments.

For myself, I would prefer in the face of 55 000 dead and still climbing, wounded still in the hospital, and bodies still washing ashore, to be kind and hope those acting on my behalf in the area will be effective.

America has tried being "kind" for a long, long time now. The sand is running out for us to continue being so "kind" in the face of those who seek to slaughter our citizens wholesale. We can be a little unkind now and force some productive change upon those who are most resistant to it, or be confronted with loss of American life in some extremely unkind fighting with these same cultures when they really begin flooding the world with terrorist operatives.

If you would like to bring up the idea of linking foreign aid with transparancy and freedom ratings after the screaming stops, I will also be happy to join you in that effort as well. I have long wondered why Mexico gets so much money when they barely make the "free economy" list. Why not demand they implement measures to liberalize their economy and then help them do it. If you want to file a lawsuit against the UN as a "Friend of All the Tsunami Dead who Could have Been Saved if You Weren't such an Inept Bunch of Weasels", I'd be happy to join you in that too.

We are in total agreement. I can only suppose you may have missed where I concur that water, medicine and food should be shipped in immediately, but how infrastructure rebuild should be contingent upon, and directly linked to, improved compliance in the fight against terrorism and corruption.

Adriane, you make some superb points about the cultural disparities involved. In many high context Asian societies you never even think of openly declaring how glad you are a friend narrowly missed having a fatal accident, because that is seen as tempting fate. Yet, spending a few million to install tsunami detectors is a no-brainer. Who cares if it is regarded by the adults of more superstitious cultures as tempting fate? Considering that some 33% of the death toll consists of children who never had a chance to even become superstitious, maybe we need to place higher priority on saving those innocent lives than appeasing primitive mentalities.

At some point we also have to realistically assess the cost benefit ratio of continuing to support governments that leave their entire populations exposed to natural disasters and the gigantic expense of always having to go in and mop up after them.

America is seeing this on the Atlantic coast's "hurricane alley." Constantly funding the rebuilding of homes that will only be washed away or blown down a few seasons later is foolish. Better to relocate those property owners than help them reconstruct one more time.

So it is with these despotic governments. Either we bring them into line or face an endless parade of rescue missions to, effectively, save these people from their own corrupt leadership. We have neither the time or money to mollycoddle these noncompliant governments. I realize that many here think we actually do.

I feel that our time is much shorter and that immediate action, however unpopular others may find it, is required for America to avert some more very nasty terrorist attacks upon its own soil. Iran is a sterling example of this, as is the containment of so many other Islamist nations. If not holding these now-vulnerable disaster stricken countries' governments over a barrel comes at the cost of 1,000s more American lives lost, then the price is simply too high.

We've already lost 1,000 American lives quelling Iraq's terrorist infrastructure. How many more are acceptable in thwarting terrorism with convention military force? I'd rather halt overt support for corrupt governments and thereby ensure that they no longer breed up flock after flock of terrorists.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-28 4:31:37 PM|| 2004-12-28 4:31:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 I am sorry to disagree so violently, as I do respect your opinion on many other matters you have written about here, but that is just not right.

How many times would you be willing to have your hand snapped at by a varied collection of dogs before you begin to question the wisdom of feeding them?

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-12-28 4:44:42 PM|| 2004-12-28 4:44:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 people thought it was fine to criticse America litterally minuetes after the world trade centres were smashed down, infact the world went wild with screeming idiots proclaiming America's intel agencies and military utterly useless for not stopping it, hell stupid people round the world mocked America for its 'failure' to not stop 9/11 and continue to do so constantly at every oppertuinity! Now we have lots of poor people with shit goverments up to their neck in water all because of mother nature, the fact they could have for-warned thier people of impending doom is irrelevent,irrelevent not beacause of the stupid clowns running these countrys who don't really give a fck about thier people and dont feel the need to even set up a warning system that would have given thier people time to escape to high ground, no thier immune from all blame because of one simple fact, they are not America, its that simple.Imagine America suffers a tidal wave ,a warning system gives people hours to escape,they do but 50 people drown,10 million survive but 50,no wait make that 5 die, now what do you think the press would do, would they comment on how millions escaped in time thanks to the goverment warning system or would the focus for weeks remain on the 5 people who died, the headlines would read 'bush murdered 5', 'America fails again', bush lied people died, etc etc. The dicks behind the news desks then start saying why such little money is given to these relif funds from America whilst forgetting thier huge funding of the fraudulent UN. I dont wanna not give aid to these countrys but unfortuantly if the world continues in its pathetic anti American mood i say tough sht no more money for you and roll the D-9 dozers into the UN hq with great haste. Double standards all the way, as always.

Posted by Shep UK 2004-12-28 4:48:59 PM|| 2004-12-28 4:48:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Zenster's right. The greatest contributors to the misery of third world nations are those nations' incompetent, kleptocratic governments. The record of their corruption and failure to govern properly is massive, and at the heart of every tragedy brought on by natural disaster. Failure to invest in basic seismic shock warning systems. Failure to enforce basic building code standards, usually because of kickbacks from builders to government officials. etc etc

Posted by lex 2004-12-28 4:57:39 PM|| 2004-12-28 4:57:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Ah, Mr. Zen, the King of the non sequitur

At some point we also have to realistically assess the cost benefit ratio of continuing to support governments that leave their entire populations exposed to natural disasters and the gigantic expense of always having to go in and mop up after them. * * * we bring them into line or face an endless parade of rescue missions to, effectively, save these people from their own corrupt leadership. * * * We've already lost 1,000 American lives quelling Iraq's terrorist infrastructure. How many more are acceptable in thwarting terrorism with convention military force? I'd rather halt overt support for corrupt governments and thereby ensure that they no longer breed up flock after flock of terrorists.

Is it just me, or is this an awfully colonialist attitude? I thought we were trying to export freedom and democracy.

Like, what, youâre saying Thailand, India, and Sri Lanka are breeding grounds for âflock after flock of terroristsâ? Or, are you saying we give aid to Thailand, India, and Sri Lanka (even if corruption is a problem in those countries) and withhold it from Malaysia and Indonesia (because a lot, but not all, of the population has Muslim roots)? How about the Red Cross society of Indonesia, is that OK to give to? Or do we just annex the world and turn each country into a new state? If weâre annexing countries, shouldnât we start with Haiti? Is Haiti, with all of its poverty and corruption, a breeding ground for terrorism? Say, if we stop giving aid to needy countries, will our boys and girls stop dying in Iraq? Do our boys and girls die in Iraq because Iraq is corrupt? How, exactly, does a natural disaster relate to islamofascism and corruption?

Phef. Why donât you spout your c7*p to this poor fellow?

Charity, not REMF critiques are needed at this point.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 5:10:28 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:10:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Here's the link, if you really want to gloat.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 5:12:51 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:12:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 I really appreciate your support on this, lex (you too, Shep). America no longer has the luxury of pretending that it can play "nice cop" all the time and simultaneously put an end to tyranny. We did so before and our reward was 9-11.

I absolutely refuse to accept even a single repeat of 9-11. If preventing another similar atrocity on American soil requires that all we display to the world is a mailed fist, then so be it. Like Bar said, how long do you insist upon feeding dogs that keep on snapping and snarling at you before you turn the animals out or simply put them down?

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-28 5:14:46 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:14:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Cingold-no one is gloating over suffering. I bet everyone on this page feels horrible seeing photos of people who have been hurt, like the person in your link.

Neither should we be careless with donating help. It matters who gets it, how it's spent-otherwise, we are fine with others, as agents of our charity, to cause more people, like the one in this photo, to suffer. There are people there, just like people here, who with someone else's money in their hands, find it especially easy to spend on what it wasn't intended for.

Posted by Jules 187 2004-12-28 5:18:36 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:18:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 cingold: Here's the link, if you really want to gloat.

In the wake of 9/11 and the reactions to it around the world, I now believe that no American blood or treasure should be spent on the problems of foreign countries. If they want help from us, they can work for it. The gravy train's at an end. After 9/11, the rest of the world tried to frighten us with the specter of an angry Muslim street. I think they should be more worried about an angry American street.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-12-28 5:26:13 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-12-28 5:26:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 I used to support a kid in Indonesia, through Compassion International. Compassion International (during a routine audit) found corruption, and shut down the entire program, because they couldnât find an alternate way to help the people who needed it. That was the right thing to do, but it was sad that a lot of people suffered.

The problem here is the non sequitur.

Corruption is being confabulated with islamofascist terrorism poised to strike our own shores. Call me old-fashioned, but I think not throwing the baby out with the bathwater is just as important as calling a spade a spade. Further, Zensterâs timing is more than just a bit off. This is not the time to play âhold the world hostage,â unless you really want to promote some hard feelings.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 5:26:18 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:26:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 I now believe that no American blood or treasure should be spent on the problems of foreign countries

So, get legislation passed to make the US isolationistic, again. See how well that works. Oh, and while youâre at it, youâll have to get laws passed to shut down all the private quarter (read âChristianâ) charity giving, because that is how most relief aid is given to the third world. Of course, thereâs that pesky First Amendment thingy, but someone like you should be able to find a way around that . . .

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 5:31:29 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:31:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 The simple, harsh fact is that there is no greater source of misery on this planet than third-world corruption and kleptocracy. Whether you're talking about Mexican narco-politicians like Los Hermanos Salinas, or Brazilian mega-corruption as with Collor and his successors and the majority of Brazil's legislators and judges and cops, or Russian and Ukrainian alliances between "oligarchs" and security service thugs that have stolen nearly half of each country's GDP and more importantly, robbed at least one generation of a shot at living in a normal, prosperous country, you can very easily specify the causal links from kleptocracy => economic incompetence => foregone growth and increased living and health-educational-welfare standards for many millions of citizens.

For decades we ignored the evidence that democracies are more peaceful and advance our foreign policy interests more than tyrannies do. Now it's time to put the same kind of strategic focus on promoting rule of law and good governance as we now do on democracy promotion.

Kleptocracy kills, and kills millions.

Posted by lex 2004-12-28 5:34:15 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:34:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 The point is to shine a flashlight on kleptocracy and tie foreign aid to governance reforms.

Posted by lex 2004-12-28 5:35:30 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:35:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Oh, and just to keep things straight, how does Indonesia think about 9/11? Hereâs a link to statements by the then President of Indonesia. I believe she was one of the first to express outrage at what happened, and support of the US. Hereâs an excerpt:

PRESIDENT MEGAWATI: After I heard and witnessed and saw what happened, the tragic events in New York and Washington, I immediately issued a statement which strongly condemned these attacks, which were very inhumane. And afterwards I sent a letter to President Bush, expressing my condolences. So this is the position of my government on this issue. So it's very clear.

After, that, Indonesia stepped up efforts to wipe out islamofascism in the country. And, please remember, Megawati would be considered âsoftâ on islamofascism by comparison with the current President of Indonesia, SBY.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 5:40:54 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:40:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 The point is to shine a flashlight on kleptocracy and tie foreign aid to governance reforms.

Precisely why President Bush is to be commended. He, of course, is not so STUPID as to try to make that linkage immediately following a devastating natural disaster, but (clearly) his goal is to create a climate of change toward sustainable democratic governments. Even those of Muslim heritage bleed and die and hope daily for a better life. Yes, it is true that the gentrification of entitlement, without personal responsibility and true democratic voice, always leads to thuggery, but we donât have to be isolationists to avoid those kinds of problems. If we follow the policies of President Bush, there is much reason to hope millions more can be set free to pursue life, liberty and happiness. We have the sword for the warring, and our right hand of friendship and assistance for the peaceful, oppressed, or suffering.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 5:46:56 PM|| 2004-12-28 5:46:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 cingold: After, that, Indonesia stepped up efforts to wipe out islamofascism in the country. And, please remember, Megawati would be considered âsoftâ on islamofascism by comparison with the current President of Indonesia, SBY.

Right - by acquitting terror bombing suspects and almost releasing a few terror cell members until the State Department made it clear to them that these actions would have severely negative consequences for their ties with the US.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-12-28 5:57:58 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-12-28 5:57:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Note also that Indonesia made a big stink about the US campaign in Afghanistan, never mind Iraq. Muslims are as adept at crocodile tears as anyone else. Someone who has had any experience with Indonesians should know that.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-12-28 5:59:15 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-12-28 5:59:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Zhang Fei, show me any other country (apart from the US) that has captured, convicted and/or killed more islamofascist terrorists since 9/11 than Indonesia (remember the Aceh campaign?). THERE ISNâT ANY.

Do your homework and see how many convictions Indonesia got out of the Bali Bombing and the Marriot Bombing, and how many death sentences were handed out. Even you should be surprised because -- guess what -- despite the fact that we know for a fact that the 9/11 terrorists had help here in the USA to do what they did here in the USA, we canât match the Indonesia rate of conviction. Donât pretend that Indonesia can ignore the separation of the judiciary, the legislative branch and the executive branch any more than we can. Still, they are getting the job done.

So what if Indonesia made a big stink about the US campaign in Afghanistan? So did more than half of Europe, and almost half of this country, Australia and Japan. And sure, Muslims are as adept at crocodile tears as anyone else, but that doesnât mean this is the time to hold humanitarian aid hostage to some ill conceived, juvenile concept of foreign policy.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 6:41:24 PM|| 2004-12-28 6:41:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 cingold: And sure, Muslims are as adept at crocodile tears as anyone else, but that doesnât mean this is the time to hold humanitarian aid hostage to some ill conceived, juvenile concept of foreign policy.

Ill-conceived and juvenile? I would say that applies to the Indonesian objections to the Afghanistan campaign and attempts to get the terrorists freed. Denying aid to these fellas would be a way of showing them that there are consequences to opposing American interests. No more and no less than the Chinese have done with regard to their territorial interests. Unless you think Chinese policies are ill-conceived and juvenile, as well.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-12-28 6:46:28 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2004-12-28 6:46:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Again,

Zhang Fei, show me any other country (apart from the US) that has captured, convicted and/or killed more islamofascist terrorists since 9/11 than Indonesia (remember the Aceh campaign?). THERE ISNâT ANY.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 7:02:11 PM|| 2004-12-28 7:02:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Then, thereâs always the problem with the USA government allowing aid groups to give aid and comfort to known islamofascist groups in Aceh. Doesnât the USA know how bad that looks? Donât Americans care about 9/11, and didnât they learn a lesson from 9/11? How can the USA allow those kinds of groups to operate and to undermine all the efforts of the Indonesian government to suppress the islamofascist activity in Aceh?

Why arenât there simple solutions to complex issues of foreign relations?

At this time of crisis, is not the time to withhold humanitarian aid. Doing so would be ill conceived and juvenile. Not even the âruthlessâ Indonesian government, that has waged war against the Aceh rebels, is doing that.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 7:21:10 PM|| 2004-12-28 7:21:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 At this time of crisis, is not the time to withhold humanitarian aid.

cingold, I do not think that anybody here is demanding that supplies intended to relieve human suffering should be held hostage. Please stop clinging to such a misguided notion. Perhaps you didn't read the part I wrote earlier:

I concur that water, medicine and food should be shipped in immediately

I happen to have big problems with rebuilding the infrastructure of countries that continue to economically rape their populations. Yes, it's all well and fine that Indonesia is fighting terrorism, however debatable their enthusiasm for the task may be. None of this changes how Indonesia remains one of the most corrupt nations on earth.

All of their work towards fighting terrorism amounts to little if ingrained cronyism or entrenched special interests are allowed to create huge disparities in wealth and quality of life. While poverty itself may not be a prime mover in creating terrorism, discrimination, disenfranchisement and preferential treatment most certainly are.

Again, here are Transparency International's indicies for the top ranking countries accompanied by selected nations within the afflicted region. Indonesia is more corrupt than the morally bankrupt Palestinian Authority. What does this say about their ability to truly overcome the roots of terrorism within their own borders?

Indonesia is the 133rd most corrupt country, less than ten places removed from the absolute worst countries, Bangladesh and Haiti respectively, in 145th place.

--------------------------

Finland 9,7 (9.5 - 9.8)

New Zealand 9,6 (9.4 - 9.6)

Denmark 9,5 (9.3 - 9.7)

USA 7.5 (6.9 - 8.0) [for reference]

Jordan 5,3 (4.6 - 5.9)

Malaysia 5,0 (4.5 - 5.6)

Thailand 3,6 (3.3 - 3.9)

Sri Lanka 3,5 (3.1 - 3.9)

Syria 3,4 (2.8 - 4.1)

Saudi Arabia 3,4 (2.7 - 4.0)

Egypt 3,2 (2.7 - 3.8)

Iran 2,9 (2.2 - 3.4)

Russia 2,8 (2.5 - 3.1)

India 2,8 (2.6 - 3.0)

Lebanon 2,7 (2.1 - 3.2)

Vietnam 2,6 (2.3 - 2.9)

Philippines 2,6 - (2.4 - 2.9)

Libya 2,5 (1.9 - 3.0)

Palestinian Authority 2,5 (2.0 - 2.7)

Yemen 2,4 (1.9 - 2.9)

Sudan 2,2 (2.0 - 2.3)

Iraq 2,1 (1.3 - 2.8)

Pakistan 2,1 - (1.6 - 2.6)

Indonesia 2,0 (1.7 - 2.2)

Myanmar 1,7 (1.5 - 2.0)

Bangladesh 1,5 (1.1 - 1.9)

--------------------------

Examine the list and you will see a distinct correlation. cingold, you claim that:

"Corruption is being confabulated with islamofascist terrorism poised to strike our own shores."

A close look at the above chart reveals just how many terrorist sponsoring nations have pretty closely grouped and rather unflattering corruption statistics. I'm not conflating terrorism and corruption, I'm claiming that there is a direct link between the two.

Iran's graft riddled construction industry erected substandard buildings in Bam. They collapsed in a moderate earthquake that might have killed less than 100 people in Europe, but ended up killing some 30,000 people. That number is nearly as many as this huge disaster has killed across the entire Southeast Asian region. What does that say?

Meanwhile, Iran diverts billions of badly needed dollars that could finance reconstruction into their nuclear weapons program. An effort that most certainly will result in massive destruction for their nation, either through preemptive strikes or nuclear war. Here is a terrorist sponsoring country using corruptly gained wealth to destabilize the entire Middle East and specifically kill American soldiers in Iraq.

Corruption and terrorism go hand in hand. If we are to fight one, we must fight the other. Rebuilding the infrastructure of parasitic governments will only serve the ends of America's enemies.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-28 10:07:32 PM|| 2004-12-28 10:07:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 None of this changes how Indonesia remains one of the most corrupt nations on earth.

Do you include in your calculus that the country has only just moved into being a true democracy since 1998, and that this Fall (2004) was the countryâs first free and democratic Presidential election? And what did the people of Indonesia do with that freedom? They elected SBY, who is much more aggressive than Megawati was toward islamofascism. Both major candidates campaigned on an anti-corruption platform, and SBY will likely implement it.

Given that they are only six year into a true democracy, donât you think you might cut them a little slack? I think theyâre headed in the right direction.

Rebuilding the infrastructure of parasitic governments will only serve the ends of America's enemies.

Do you really think rebuilding the infrastructure of parasitic governments is what the US is doing by helping out a bunch of dead and dying tsunami victims? Or, by giving aid, do we (instead) build good will and good memories? By giving aid, do people begin to question which tradition met them in their time of need and built them up? This is the time to strike while the iron is hot -- not with some self aggrandizing moralistic critique of peopleâs governments, but with true compassion that cuts through all racial and religious divides to the true human ties that bind us all to one another.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 10:26:43 PM|| 2004-12-28 10:26:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Do you really think rebuilding the infrastructure of parasitic governments is what the US is doing by helping out a bunch of dead and dying tsunami victims?

I've already covered the importance of assisting the casualties of this disaster. You're beating a dead horse.

I'm talking about when these governments come to us for help in rebuilding their countries. What use is it if huge chunks of the foreign aid simply disappear into the usual black hole of graft?

You keep responding about Indonesia but fail to address the larger pattern of how corruption and Islamofascism coexist in so many of the nations that sponsor terrorism.

Posted by Zenster 2004-12-28 10:56:59 PM|| 2004-12-28 10:56:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Adriane and cingold are sane. Thanks for your comments (and Adriane--please don't apologize).

As Zenster has said many times, he hates President Bush for doing anything from his moral base, and rejects any and all of Bush's initiatives that have anything even remotely to do with faith because "homosexuality has been around longer than the Bible or Christianity." Zenster also routinely says he wants to nuke Mecca and Medina, for example, to "eliminate terrorism" without regard for greater consequences. He is politically naive and his pseudo-intellectualism is dangerously arrogant. He has the audacity to call me a Nazi and has suggested that many good Americans died to eliminate people like me--just because I questioned his deconstructionist notions. I firmly believe Zenster is on this site in order to gain personal support--a "following" to promote his private political agenda(s) and "vision" for the world. And let's not forget that Aris is his web buddy. So what's to say . . . Rantburg is slowly becoming the haunts of strange totalitarianesque birds . . .

Sending relief aid and helping to rebuild these nations and making it contingent on some vague policy or promise against sponsoring terrorism might be applicable to Saudi Arabia or Iran, but it is out of place in this instance and is a dishonorable stance for the United States to take. Posters referring to other forms of aid given over the years without question or monitoring, are basing their arguments on a different topic than the tsunami disaster. It's typical of short-sighted and opportunistic Zenster, though--cuz he wants to run the world his way and his way only.

God forbid.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-12-28 11:45:31 PM|| 2004-12-28 11:45:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 You . . . fail to address the larger pattern of how corruption and Islamofascism coexist in so many of the nations that sponsor terrorism.

Zenster, youâve self-professed yourself to be a research scientist. Donât you know that correlations cannot imply causation? That is why your conflations are true delusional confabulations. I mean, if you want to get the proper data set and run some hierarchal linear models, maybe youâll persuade me--but what youâre showing me isnât cutting it. Letâs try out this hypothesis: Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and islamofascism is all about absolute power, and so leads to corruption. From this it does not follow that India, Sri Lanka and Thailand are about to launch jihadi islamofascists against our shores because of the graft evident in those countries. Nor should the same be feared of Indonesia, that only six years ago threw off the yoke of bondage that promoted the corruption you (rightly) revile. But, hating corruption doesnât give us license to hold aid hostage--now, or ever.

Posted by cingold 2004-12-28 11:57:16 PM|| 2004-12-28 11:57:16 PM|| Front Page Top

22:46 Aris Katsaris
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