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2005-12-20 
A note from the Rantburg moderating staff
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by Seafarious 2005-12-20 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Mom made me read the Bible.
Posted by badanov 2005-12-20 00:33|| http://www.freefirezone.org/firststrike.html]">[http://www.freefirezone.org/firststrike.html]  2005-12-20 00:33|| Front Page Top

#2 Repent now Badanov. I think she is referring to a formal shunning or excommunication. As soon as I get back to Salt Lake City I will look into the matter further with the Chief Seer and Revelator and see if there is any hope for us.
Posted by Besoeker 2005-12-20 00:42||   2005-12-20 00:42|| Front Page Top

#3 I've been missing all of the fun lately. Sniff.
Posted by 11A5S 2005-12-20 00:43||   2005-12-20 00:43|| Front Page Top

#4 because when you feed a troll it makes baby Jesus cry
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-12-20 01:13||   2005-12-20 01:13|| Front Page Top

#5 Awwww...no smiting for usin sub-mods. >:(


Posted by Spembelov 2005-12-20 01:30||   2005-12-20 01:30|| Front Page Top

#6 Lol, guyz. Well, for once, I'm pretty sure it wudn't me, lol, though I could be mistaken - as I often am regards my dealings with two-legged critters. Let me know if I've offended - I'm outta that game now, sans direct attacks, of course. Not worthy of the effort and time, wastes Fred's bandwidth, and the trolls these days, pfeh, the quality is dismal and the argumentation is aimlessly repetitive.

RC's Good News Law never fails, lol.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 05:54||   2005-12-20 05:54|| Front Page Top

#7 Agree with .com, recent trolls don't seem to understand how to construct an argument. Not worth wasting time with.
Posted by long memory 2005-12-20 06:36||   2005-12-20 06:36|| Front Page Top

#8 It's true they've been of disappointing quality of late.
Posted by lotp 2005-12-20 08:22||   2005-12-20 08:22|| Front Page Top

#9 ..all posters strive towards civil, well-reasoned discourse.

Until one sees the little image of the two "combatants" in the logo......heh heh...
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-12-20 08:45||   2005-12-20 08:45|| Front Page Top

#10 Its pretty obvious that the majority of people
that hang out in this site on a regular basis are politcally conservative republicans. It's also very obvious that these persons cannot tolerate dissenting opinions of and show outright hostility toward liberal democrats. It's also very obvious that most of these people have overly inflated ego's and opinions of themselves
and their so-called intellectual superiority.
In the eyes of these people President Bush is above the law and beyond criticism. He is not.

Fred these are the people, you need to talk to.
Your regulars. They are rude, contentious and hostile. Engaging in a civil conversation with them is almost impossible, because they think they know everything. Tell them to calm down.
They take politics way to serious.
Posted by Anonymous 2005-12-20 09:15||   2005-12-20 09:15|| Front Page Top

#11 that's "too" serious, idiot!



:-)
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-12-20 09:17||   2005-12-20 09:17|| Front Page Top

#12 Hi, Left Angle. You misspelled 'too' but the rest is a nice improvement over yesterday's attempts.

Dissent is more than welcome - you just have to be willing to back things up with facts and not try to pass off "I read it so it's probably true" as a serious argument. As we mentioned before, the national security and military issues discussed here are topics that many RB regulars have years of personal, hands-on, up-close experience with. Doesn't mean they can't be disagreed with, but you'd better come prepared to have a serious discussion backed by references and facts.

It's also the case that many here used to be liberal Democrats. Some of the anger you see is due to a deep sense that the party they (we) supported a long time has sold itself out, and the country along with it, while doing less and less for those in whose name it purports to act: women, children, those in need.

Now, that too can be discussed if you like. But again, be prepared to be challenged and to back up any assertions you make. Namecalling and gay references won't do it ... but if you're willing to get into serious issues with serious intent, have at it!
Posted by lotp 2005-12-20 09:19||   2005-12-20 09:19|| Front Page Top

#13 Actually, we've been waiting for four years for Democrats to have some ideas and discuss them reasonably rather than seething, whingeing, obstructionating, and backstabbing.

Unfortunately, that hasn't happened yet.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-12-20 09:30||   2005-12-20 09:30|| Front Page Top

#14 add blubbering too.
Posted by Red Dog 2005-12-20 09:32||   2005-12-20 09:32|| Front Page Top

#15 Points for spellin anonymous right tho.
Posted by Alpha Spemble1220 2005-12-20 10:00||   2005-12-20 10:00|| Front Page Top

#16 Some of the new talent does not pass the minimum threshold for rational discussion or entertainment value, not as good as AK, MS or even Gentle.

Don't feed the trolls.
Posted by Theper Shaiper3390 2005-12-20 10:17||   2005-12-20 10:17|| Front Page Top

#17 In the spirit of the holidays, I will only post non-contentious comments per Seafarious. I guess this means I can't comment on Left Angle's (Anonymous') fact-less statements anymore. At least until after the new year anyway.
Posted by Intrinsicpilot 2005-12-20 10:19||   2005-12-20 10:19|| Front Page Top

#18 I don't read all the posts, but I dont see any gentleman's arguments getting out of hand. I like it when a flaming liberal pipes up and tries to lay his B.S. on someone. He usually gets blasted clear out of cyberspace. It's fun and easy to do. Unless youre talking about people like me (never occured to me until just this second) and my filthy fucking mouth.
Posted by bigjim-ky 2005-12-20 10:33||   2005-12-20 10:33|| Front Page Top

#19 The more I think about it, we need trolls.
Sites like Fred's wouldn't be near as fun without howling, wild-eyed liberal alarmists. They will say anything to try to put together a semi-lucid retort to the obvious truth. How fun would it be if you only had staunch GOP'ers touting the latest sucess in Iraq? I have always had this sadistic urge to get liberals all fired up and watch them convulse in their frustration of trying to make us "understand". Seasons Greeting.
Posted by bigjim-ky 2005-12-20 10:39||   2005-12-20 10:39|| Front Page Top

#20 FWIW, I don't think LA is a troll. I think she/he is very young, inexperienced, and relies too heavily on trying to score "gotcha" points rather than developing a coherent platform to debate from.

LA: Try to put some substance in your position. Sneering that it's all about oil is pointless here; we've heard it all before and argued it to death. Move past "bumper sticker" philosophy. And learn the difference between republican and libertarian. Just because we disagree with you doesn't make us "politically conservative Republicans". For the record, I voted for Bill Clinton twice and Al Gore. The left can say that the American people have lost faith in the president, but it's a quantifiable fact that it's the Democrats who are losing followers in droves.
Posted by BH 2005-12-20 10:40||   2005-12-20 10:40|| Front Page Top

#21 It's also very obvious that these persons cannot tolerate dissenting opinions of and show outright hostility toward liberal democrats.

Oh, those "dissenting opinions" can be tolerated no problem. What you're really whining about is that they're picked apart so fast that you can't keep up, right? Well, expect that to happen when your opinions don't have a lot in common with facts.

Fred these are the people, you need to talk to.

Yeah Mr. Pruitt. You need to talk to these people, these rude, contentious, and hostile individuals. Why, it's as if dissent was being stifled! Oh, the injustice of it all!
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-12-20 10:42||   2005-12-20 10:42|| Front Page Top

#22 Its pretty obvious that the majority of people
that hang out in this site on a regular basis are politcally conservative republicans. It's also very obvious that these persons cannot tolerate dissenting opinions of and show outright hostility toward liberal democrats. It's also very obvious that most of these people have overly inflated ego's and opinions of themselves
and their so-called intellectual superiority.
In the eyes of these people President Bush is above the law and beyond criticism. He is not.

Fred these are the people, you need to talk to.
Your regulars. They are rude, contentious and hostile. Engaging in a civil conversation with them is almost impossible, because they think they know everything. Tell them to calm down.
They take politics way to serious.

Apparently you've just discovered Rantburg, but you haven't gone through the archives or even the Classix. I suggest you do both.

1. Most of us are politically conservative, and many of us are Republicans. "Conservative" has a wide range of definition, and in current parlance it also includes a goodly hunk of (small L) libertarianism. "Conservative" for our purposes runs the gamut from Paleo- to Neo-, Adam Smith to Hayek. The few liberals who are regulars are classical liberals, or liberals who take the WoT seriously.

2. Dissenting opinions are always welcome, but as has been stated in several of the threads you've participated in, they're expected to be backed up by facts. The mere fact that you have an opinion doesn't mean that it's valid. Several of us have in fact changed opinions that we've held in the face of factual arguments to the contrary. When you make a statement that's incorrect, chances are someone will correct you. Don't take it personally; it happens to all of us, me included.

3. Most of the liberal Democrat arguments have already been made here. Remember, the site's four years old, with lots of commentary every day. If you have some new opinions, feel free to present them. Talking points don't do it, though.

We have near-uniformly low opinions of Harry Reid, of Nancy Pelosi, most people named Kennedy, and the rest of the usual liberal suspects. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the staff of The Nation, Jane Fonda, and Susan Sontag make most of us want to spit. Sorry. That's just the way it is.

4. Most of the "inflated egos" you see are well-deserved. Most of our contributors are pretty well educated, though I suspect few are Liberal Artists. Most are grounded in tech fields. I'd guess the majority have military experience, so they've "been there, done that." There are lots of subject matter experts.

5. Bush is neither above the law nor beyond criticism. But at the same time, most of us see him doing the right things in response to specific situations and threats. That could be because we're mindless Republican automatons, or it could be because we've been watching events unfold and trying to guess what he's going to have to do next and at the same time trying to figure what we'd do in the same place. There's not blind support here, but there is a lot of admiration. Go to the archives and click on 9/11/2001. Read it. Put yourself in his position on that day and on the days following and try and imagine exactly what you'd have done to protect the nation.

6. One man's rudeness, contentiousness and hostility is another man's lively debate. Our friend Aris comes by regularly and argues in favor of Brussels and the EU. Not Mike Moore comes by and stirs the pot with opinions that are more liberal -- but usually better defended -- than yours. There are a few others who drop by now and then as well. I like having them around so we don't get stale. But again, they defend their opinions and they give as good as they get.

The trolls who come around are sometimes banned. We don't tolerate racial slurs or other kinds of haters -- that's a trip to the sink trap. The rest might also be jumped on, mocked, derided, and have their intellectual pants pulled down as they're knocked over backwards in the schoolyard. Most genuine trolls who aren't banned stick around for a few days and then move on to greener, more comfortable pastures. Like tends to seek like.

I like to think that occasionally someone with opinions like yours will lurk for a time and actually pay attention. They might learn something, might even change some of their opinions. This implies they've got at least a basic knowledge of the rules of cause and effect, the ability to at least try to think predictively, and a world view that extends beyond the political, perhaps all the way into reality.

7. Most of us don't take politix way too seriously. Speaking strictly for myself, I regard it as a necessary constraint on actually getting things done. If you get too wrapped up in the political trees you miss the forest.

My own interests are pretty narrow, a fact which Rantburg reflects: Page 1 is for WoT operations. It consists of enemy attacks, our operations against them, arrests, convictions, and order of battle information. Page 2 is the diplomacy and politics behind Page 1. My concern is how one affects the other. Page 3 is non-WoT related stuff, not just clowns and jugglers and Britney's bosom, but the background noise of war and revolution and posing and posturing that's the norm in the world. If your primary interests are Page 1 and Page 2 you'll have a good time at Rantburg. If you're looking for a site to discuss politics you're probably better off someplace else.
Posted by Fred 2005-12-20 11:05||   2005-12-20 11:05|| Front Page Top

#23 are pretty well educated, though I suspect few are Liberal Artists
Hey!
Posted by Oil Can Spemble1220 2005-12-20 11:13||   2005-12-20 11:13|| Front Page Top

#24 
I'm a Democrat. I just vote Republican.
Posted by Master of Obvious 2005-12-20 11:15||   2005-12-20 11:15|| Front Page Top

#25 We have near-uniformly low opinions of Harry Reid, of Nancy Pelosi, most people named Kennedy, and the rest of the usual liberal suspects. Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, the staff of The Nation, Jane Fonda, and Susan Sontag make most of us want to spit. Sorry. That's just the way it is.

While Fred's list is hardley all inclusive, there is indeed whale kak... then just below whale kak you will find the roster of socialist, pedifilic misfits, traitors, and chad-hanging scum which he mentions.
Posted by Besoeker 2005-12-20 11:16||   2005-12-20 11:16|| Front Page Top

#26 Maybe what rantburg needs is some bouncers on staff.

Are these guys available?



Posted by Phil 2005-12-20 11:33||   2005-12-20 11:33|| Front Page Top

#27 Of course, there's also some of us that think Conservatives are too warm and fuzzy for us, and so we belong to the Imperialist Warmonger Party. Once the US takes over the world, then we can fix it.

/Sarcasm off (Sort of)

The amount of intellect and practical knowledge not just of the military and intelligence communities but really, all subjects here staggers the mind. While I enjoy little green footballs and other sites, it is here that I come to not just learn the news but to enjoy comments and arguements so well pieced together that it's clear the common rantburger could run rings around most journalists.

It's inspirational as well, since it makes me seek to improve my own thoughts, beliefs and ability to argue my points. There's a high standard here when it comes to true discussion and to seek to be on it's level is a very worthy goal.

Thanks Fred and everyone else, for giving those of us coming up the goalposts to reach for. And we can all hope that Oldspook doesn't sneak in to move the goalposts further ahead too often.
Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick  2005-12-20 11:42||   2005-12-20 11:42|| Front Page Top

#28 certain disruptive conversations in the comments and whether or not their actions warrant more serious consequences than a modslap

seems to contradict:

Rantburg welcomes comments from all political stripes, and we have posters from umpteen countries. When you comment, be prepared to defend your arguments. If you can't, be prepared for mockery, derision, occasional flung fruit, or even to be ignored. Look at the logo: "Rantburg: Civil, Well-Reasoned Discourse". Look at the rest of it. Those two guys are not doing the foxtrot.

please stay consistent, mods
Posted by Creng Gleremble7784 2005-12-20 11:45||   2005-12-20 11:45|| Front Page Top

#29 Fred these are the people, you need to talk to.
Your regulars. They are rude, contentious and hostile. Engaging in a civil conversation with them is almost impossible, because they think they know everything.

If you post it, he will come.
Posted by Secret Master 2005-12-20 11:50||   2005-12-20 11:50|| Front Page Top

#30 When 9/11 happened, I had a 9-month old son. That son, now just having celebrated his 5th birthday, is growing up into what kind of a world? The mindless fools who populate the congress don't have a clue as to what the threat is. Often I take to ridicule to make my points, and yes sometimes it is a little over the top.
But the likes of Harry Reid, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, John F Kerry are such rich targets for humor.

But every person whose attention we can get to, about the threat from both within and without, is another person who will be a little more circumspect when entering the polling booth, and less likely to choose based on the promise of a better "Roman Circus". Those kinds of choices met with disaster in the 5th century, and could befall us if we are not careful.

As Hugh Hewitt likes to say, "I don't like you cause youre gonna get me killed." I think that sums it up well. And when the clueless troll in here, they should understand that most of us have no use for those policies and actions which could be the end of us all.
Posted by BigEd 2005-12-20 12:01||   2005-12-20 12:01|| Front Page Top

#31 BigEd But the likes of Harry Reid, Barbara Boxer, Nancy Pelosi, John F Kerry are such rich targets for humor.

speaking of rich targets.. *Retnia Alert*

Posted by Spembelov">Spembelov  2005-12-20 12:14||   2005-12-20 12:14|| Front Page Top

#32 We don't tolerate racial slurs or other kinds of haters

"Muzzy" haters, otoh, are welcomed with open arms!
Posted by Snutch Glaise5353 2005-12-20 12:23||   2005-12-20 12:23|| Front Page Top

#33 "If your primary interests are Page 1 and Page 2 you'll have a good time at Rantburg. If you're looking for a site to discuss politics you're probably better off someplace else."

Amen to that. There are folks on both sides who come here to discuss domestic USA politics, and who bring it in inappropriate ways to page 1 and 2 discussions. Including several regulars. Ive done my best lately to avoid such discussions, but dont think im unaware of the bias.

And whats this thing about liberal arts? I daresay, givent the kind of war we're fighting, knowledge of cultures and how they evolve seems to me as important as tech knowledge. The problem right now is that certain areas of the liberal arts are dominated by people with a distorted viewpoint - Im thinking esp of Middle East Studies.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-12-20 12:25||   2005-12-20 12:25|| Front Page Top

#34 Islam is not a race, nor is it a religion. It's a death cult bent on destroying the world. Therefore, it does not qualify for such protections. Hating Islam is like hating rabies.
Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick  2005-12-20 12:27||   2005-12-20 12:27|| Front Page Top

#35 "Bush is neither above the law nor beyond criticism. But at the same time, most of us see him doing the right things in response to specific situations and threats. That could be because we're mindless Republican automatons, or it could be because we've been watching events unfold and trying to guess what he's going to have to do next and at the same time trying to figure what we'd do in the same place. There's not blind support here, but there is a lot of admiration"

And there are some folks here who take the WOT very seriously, and have some real difficulties with lots of things Bush has said and done, both before 9/11 and since. To the point where admiration is not a good way to charecterize our feelings for him.

I admire John McCain at least as strongly as I do Bush, and McCain is no liberal, lefty or Democrat. And he is a strong supporter of firm measures in the WOT, and in Iraq. yet some folks here drool with hatred whenever his name is mentioned. Which also does not improve the atmosphere.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-12-20 12:31||   2005-12-20 12:31|| Front Page Top

#36 "Islam is not a race, nor is it a religion. It's a death cult bent on destroying the world. Therefore, it does not qualify for such protections. Hating Islam is like hating rabies. "

Res ipso loquitur.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-12-20 12:32||   2005-12-20 12:32|| Front Page Top

#37 Spembelov - You just ruined three months of work on the "see clearly" method which is supposed to wean me from my glasses... Back to square one...
;-)

Seriously I think this is a good chance to air out issues, and because my preferred section is Page 2, I know that I am indeed in the correct place...
Posted by BigEd 2005-12-20 12:40||   2005-12-20 12:40|| Front Page Top

#38 "The thing speaks for itself."

Ouch, LH.
Posted by Secret Master 2005-12-20 12:41||   2005-12-20 12:41|| Front Page Top

#39 "They are rude, contentious and hostile. Engaging in a civil conversation with them is almost impossible, because they think they know everything."

welcome to da internet. Frankly, as a neoluddite, i think the rudeness,etc are a good thing, as it forces us to have our most important discussions in real life :)

Like Fred said (kinda) , this is a good place to keep up with the more obscure news about the WOT - stuff that doesnt make the headlines. Its not a terribly good place to discuss domestic US politics (but in fairness there are few online venues that are)
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-12-20 12:45||   2005-12-20 12:45|| Front Page Top

#40 Islam is not a race, nor is it a religion. It's a death cult bent on destroying the world. Therefore, it does not qualify for such protections. Hating Islam is like hating rabies.

Funny, you would've been great pals with a certain historical figure circa the 1930/40s.

Let's see if Fred follows his own advice.
Posted by Huputing Hupeating4484 2005-12-20 12:52||   2005-12-20 12:52|| Front Page Top

#41 Spembelov, I would ban you for that if I was Fred. Posting obscene photos is in poor taste, unless of course they show gud-lookin neked wimin.
Posted by Darrell 2005-12-20 12:52||   2005-12-20 12:52|| Front Page Top

#42 They're heeeeeeeere...
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 12:57||   2005-12-20 12:57|| Front Page Top

#43 Posting obscene photos is in poor taste, unless of course they show gud-lookin neked wimin.

Mebbe he was confused by the fun-bags. ;)
Posted by BH 2005-12-20 12:58||   2005-12-20 12:58|| Front Page Top

#44 So Fred:

The democratic leadership & leftist activist you call the "ususal suspects" make you want to spit?

Then you should have absolutely no problem with the fact that many on the left feel exactly the same way about President Bush, his administration and his followers.

As far as learning something from Republican conservatives, oh yes i learn quite a bit.

The primary thing that I have learned about Repubs/cons is that they have a very odd relationship with REALITY. There is a very strong disconnect between what is actually
happening and what they see as happening.

The inflated ego's are well deserved? get real lmao

Dude this is the internet..people can represent themselves whichever way they want. I see absolutely no "super-advanced" intellects in here among the right wingers. Just a bunch of
people pretending to be. I am totally unimpressed by people that consistently echo rnc
talking points and more to the point post them
as if they are facts.

Oh and finally, your condescending, eltist and
artificially conceited tone is unwarranted. I'm just trying who youre trying to impress.

Us "people with opinions like yours"
are here to stay. And if we criticize your president and you cant deal with it thats your problem not ours. This is our country too. We are the Democrats and there are millions of us.

Or maybe you'd prefer that we just split up the country, all the repubs on their side, all the dems on theirs..lol
Posted by Anonymous 2005-12-20 13:09||   2005-12-20 13:09|| Front Page Top

#45 Some months ago, I made a pronouncement on French history here. JFM politely corrected me, and I learned something. I found further discussions with him via email to be very helpful, as I was home schooling #3 daughter at the time and we were studying Europe.

Whether you're a Christian or not, please pay attention to this statement from the Apostle James:
With the tongue we praise our Lord and father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God's likeness. Out of the same mouth comes blessing and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring? James 3:9-11

Trying to talk sense to a troll is like shoveling snow with a teaspoon. But let's not yield to the temptation to talk like trolls ourselves.

There are plenty of America haters who take the low road: "My president can drink your honor student under the table" is one such despicable jab. My grandma always used to say that people who swear and insult others do so because they haven't got the brains to saw anything better.

Leave the low road to those who haven't anything better to say.

Posted by mom">mom  2005-12-20 13:12|| http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]">[http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]  2005-12-20 13:12|| Front Page Top

#46 Manolo! Left wingers in the wire!
My blunderbuss! Quickly!
Posted by tu3031 2005-12-20 13:14||   2005-12-20 13:14|| Front Page Top

#47 And if we criticize your president and you cant deal with it thats your problem not ours. This is our country too.

What, precisely, does that have to do with how Fred and the mods run a privately-owned weblog? We aren't discussing your right to criticize the president, we are discussing your behavior here. And whether you and I are "here to stay" is solely at the discretion of the owner.
Posted by BH 2005-12-20 14:00||   2005-12-20 14:00|| Front Page Top

#48 Little troll, you are so funny! You don't have the intellect to understand that you're both being mocked and jeered at in very polite terms by people you don't have the mental capacity to do verbal battle with.

I have NEVER been either a Democrat or a Republican. I am a proud, fourth-generation Jacksonian sombi$$$. We laugh at you, and try to educate you in the folly of your verbal abuse because we have DECADES of experience in the political wackiness of Washington. I voted in my first presidential election in 1968, when you still had to be 21 and assumed to be an adult. I haven't missed one since. I've watched the actions of Democrats from LBJ through Bill Clinton in the oval office, and I've watched Congress move from being a semi-representative government to a fully-self-serving bunch of hypocrites. Most of us here have similar backgrounds, or are at least willing to listen to the voice of history.

We have some highly-educated, intelligent, THINKING people here. Your insults are pathetic. WE know each other, our varied backgrounds, and we trust the words most of us say. As for RNC talking points, you come in here and sneer at us, while preaching the DNC talking points of the day. Do you think we're really that stupid that we don't see this?

I suggest you either do some serious thinking, or find some other nest to foul.
Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot  2005-12-20 14:09|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]  2005-12-20 14:09|| Front Page Top

#49 The point mous (LA) seems to miss in his "Dude" statement about the internet, it is a private site, all are welcome that have something to add, if your not prepared to defend yourself don't comment, and repeating the same bumper stickers over and over is a waste of Fred valuable bandwidth. This is a great site, I have, and continue to learn from it. I have not been there and done that, just a poor speller thats pushing my 25th year in the Army. Folks like TW, .com, old spook, all help me learn more and expand beyond where I was. Lotp and the other more liberals on the site really add to the thought process and I find their arguments challenging and enjoyable. Fred, don't change a thing, nugs like LA will move on once they feel they have shown us, or their mother takes the computer away.
Posted by 49 pan">49 pan  2005-12-20 14:16||   2005-12-20 14:16|| Front Page Top

#50 As far as labeling myself as to what "side" I was affiliated to, I must say I formed my opinions from the MSM, and other news sources that knew/knows how to brainwash. I truly don't know what I am now, as far as to affiliation with which party. I cross over on so many issues of liberal and conservatism.
I absolutely love this site. I feel very uneducated for a college graduate, regarding many of the issues discussed here. I love the news items and especially the comments to see all of the different points of view. I especially love that alot of the posters seem to have a military background and to get their insight, with my son in the military as well. I could care less about "representing myself in any way", but more importantly getting info straight. I've found that while I've been known to harbor a strong opinion on some topics, after reading others points of view here, feeling myself swayed, or as they say, the lightbulb going on.
This site makes you think, and I love all of the input and sites that are offered. My only problem is not enough time to read them all. With having to miss days at a time.
As far as the comments that get snarley and nasty, they should in time tire of themselves and go away, I hope. Sorry, I didn't like reading the attacks either on some of the threads.
Posted by Jan 2005-12-20 14:45||   2005-12-20 14:45|| Front Page Top

#51 I feel very uneducated for a college graduate

I'm really NOT alone then?
Posted by Besoeker 2005-12-20 14:47||   2005-12-20 14:47|| Front Page Top

#52 So Fred: (That's me...)

The democratic leadership & leftist activist you call the "ususal suspects" make you want to spit?

Then you should have absolutely no problem with the fact that many on the left feel exactly the same way about President Bush, his administration and his followers.

No skin off my fore. Like I said, the mere fact that you have an opinion doesn't make it valid.

As far as learning something from Republican conservatives, oh yes i learn quite a bit.

The primary thing that I have learned about Repubs/cons is that they have a very odd relationship with REALITY. There is a very strong disconnect between what is actually
happening and what they see as happening.

Since I'm capable of taking a set of facts, analyzing them, making some tentative predictions based upon them, and seeing the prediction turn into events, my feedback loop says I have a fairly sound grasp of reality. How's yours work?

The inflated ego's are well deserved? get real lmao

Dude this is the internet..

Like, whoa, dewd! That's like, profound!

people can represent themselves whichever way they want. I see absolutely no "super-advanced" intellects in here among the right wingers. Just a bunch of
people pretending to be. I am totally unimpressed by people that consistently echo rnc
talking points and more to the point post them
as if they are facts.

Damn! Caught me out, didja? I confess: I'm actually a 14-year-old girl named Tiffany, who spends her time cruising the internet to meet policemen for sex.

I haven't seen anybody pretending to be a super-advanced intellect, though we've had several visitors, you among them, who've proven that they aren't. Whether you're impressed or not is a matter of total indifference to most, if not all, of us.

Oh and finally, your condescending, eltist and
artificially conceited tone is unwarranted. I'm just trying who youre trying to impress.

Damn again. Here I thought I was trying to be polite and reasonable. Try this: You don't like it, piss off.

Us "people with opinions like yours"
are here to stay. And if we criticize your president and you cant deal with it thats your problem not ours. This is our country too. We are the Democrats and there are millions of us.

Just not quite as many millions as there are of Republicans.

Or maybe you'd prefer that we just split up the country, all the repubs on their side, all the dems on theirs..lol

Hyuk hyuk. Don't try to be a wit. You only make it half way.
Posted by Fred 2005-12-20 14:50||   2005-12-20 14:50|| Front Page Top

#53 Ima love the Christmas Holidays.
Posted by Oil Can Spemble1220 2005-12-20 14:57||   2005-12-20 14:57|| Front Page Top

#54 Old Patriot: (the intellectual genius who none of us on the left can keep up with..lmao)

Funny thing, I just clicked on YOUR website and
guess what?

NOBODY READS IT...ROTFLMAO

Posted by Anonymous 2005-12-20 15:11||   2005-12-20 15:11|| Front Page Top

#55 Thank you, 49pan, your generosity makes me blush. You have a standing invitation to tea. ;-)

In all fairness though, Left Angle/Anonymous could sneer at me I suppose, because I never did get those degrees in mathematics and dance I had so much fun studying for (yes, one does have to study for a B.A./Dance, so y'all with serious degrees can stop snickering!), because I got distracted by other things, like the various languages I studied while living "over there" -- there is absolutely nothing that provides the amusement value of having a truly serious philosophical discussion with a professor and a beribboned "von __" using the vocabulary of the playground and the pre-school... not to mention that really horrible six months when I was an accounts payable bookkeeper, before I smartened up and went into research with a consumer products company.

My read on Left Angle is one of callow youth -- probably accustomed to being the bright one in his group. The type of which it is said, A man who isn't a liberal in his youth has no heart, but one who doesn't become conservative with age has no brain. A great many of us here have lived that progression, and it is unfortunate for LA's preconceptions that at the moment the Democratic Party is playing the part of hide-bound conservatism, while it is the Republican Party that experiments with radically changing the status quo ante. And if the trailing daughters are a fair sample of the upcoming generation, the trend is only going to accelerate over the course of the next generation, before the pendulum swings back again -- leaving you cynics and libertarians standing not-so-quietly to one side, smirking at the rest of us. ;-)

P.S. If I were feeling mean, I'd make L.A. take a private course of study with liberalhawk on the logic and methodology of Socialist arguments over time, with a side venture into the history and relationships of the various factions of the Socialist/Communist philosophy.
Posted by trailing wife 2005-12-20 15:14||   2005-12-20 15:14|| Front Page Top

#56 lol lol lol
haw, I knew you were a 14 year old girl (must be Fredette?), are you sure you're looking for a policeman or is it a police woman, heh.
no worries, hopefully folks with other agenda's will go away. I definitely like statements backed up by links.
Posted by Jan 2005-12-20 15:14||   2005-12-20 15:14|| Front Page Top

#57 The yoot argument doesn't have much sway with me. Dan D is also a callow yoot and seems to be able to grasp cause/effect with little problem. For that matter, Trailing Daughter can make the connections pretty well too. (PS tw please send me a email. I have a question for you.)

We are discussing matters of life and death here, LeftAngle. If you think Rantburg makes it hard to dissent, you should try the tender mercies of the Caliphate sometime. Which is what Dubya is working to prevent.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-12-20 15:28||   2005-12-20 15:28|| Front Page Top

#58 Nobody reads Old Patriots site. And this backs up your argument because.....?
Posted by Jim">Jim  2005-12-20 15:33|| http://Technochitlins.com]">[http://Technochitlins.com]  2005-12-20 15:33|| Front Page Top

#59 Troll, pure and simple. Emphasis on simple.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 15:38||   2005-12-20 15:38|| Front Page Top

#60 #28 certain disruptive conversations in the comments and whether or not their actions warrant more serious consequences than a modslap

seems to contradict:

Rantburg welcomes comments from all political stripes, and we have posters from umpteen countries. When you comment, be prepared to defend your arguments. If you can't, be prepared for mockery, derision, occasional flung fruit, or even to be ignored. Look at the logo: "Rantburg: Civil, Well-Reasoned Discourse". Look at the rest of it. Those two guys are not doing the foxtrot.

please stay consistent, mods

Creng Gleremble7784, I urge you to carefully examine the Rantburg logo again. If you are unable to appreciate the juxtaposition of "Civil, Well-Reasoned Discourse" and two blokes engaged in fisticuffs, you are in desperate need of a humor suppository transplant.

PS: The mods here are exceptionally consistent. Beyond that, Fred is a veritable model with respect to freedom of speech at these boards. If you bother to stick around, be prepared to have you basic understanding of global politics and mainstream journalistic reporting stood on its ear. I, myself, owe Rantburg a debt of honor for giving me much deeper insight into just how inadequately most people and politicians alike are addressing the global war on terrorism.
Posted by Zenster 2005-12-20 15:41||   2005-12-20 15:41|| Front Page Top

#61 I just love this site! I learn more here in a day than I do from the MSM in..., oh well, never mind THAT comparison.

Youngsters think they know all. Most times they do not have the self confidence to admit that their current points of view should be modified when they learn new information.

I want to take this time to thank Fred, Old Patriot, .com, TGA, Trailing Wife, the "Army of Steve", Liberalhawk, philb and all of the rest of you for the incredible breadth and depth of information you provide.
Posted by remoteman 2005-12-20 15:45||   2005-12-20 15:45|| Front Page Top

#62 Is that really, LA? I'll translate for him.
See, he's right and you're all wrong.
The smart ones are here today, LA. You won't last five minutes.
Lemme know when the Log Cabin Club comes up. I have to go do some work.
Posted by tu3031 2005-12-20 15:57||   2005-12-20 15:57|| Front Page Top

#63 Rules are made for followers of rules. RBs can be many things, but rule followers? Nope
Posted by Captain America 2005-12-20 16:20||   2005-12-20 16:20|| Front Page Top

#64 Why didn't Fred make Time's person of the year? It's gotta be rigged, I tell ya. Bono's got nuting on Fred.
Posted by Captain America 2005-12-20 16:23||   2005-12-20 16:23|| Front Page Top

#65 Back in the basement again
away from the dorm.
Mommas BroadBand keepin me warm.

Lord the food is good
the likkers free
Hide my Kools behind the TeeVee.

Got me a blog site
I like to whore
Wait for my link, they'll be more.
Posted by Buckminster Spemble1220 2005-12-20 16:26||   2005-12-20 16:26|| Front Page Top

#66 Back from the dead again I am, and its nice to see such lively discourse after my extended absence. As if anyone noticed my absence anyway.

Not that anyone here gives a shit, but:
I don't blindly support any politician, and I hope noone else who visits this site often does either, but if they do that's his/her business and they may argue whatever point they want as is their right.

That being said, I don't pretend to know enough about the law or precedent to open my mouth amongst some of the intellects present regarding the subject matter this site focuses on.

Most who disagree with the Burg's regulars are derided and made fun of and pissed on. So what, if you can't argue your points with the big dogs, stay off the fuckin porch.

I genuinely disagree with some opinions posted here, but again many of the locals have far superior knowledge than I do on issues of National Security, so I listen and learn. Dangerous huh, listening and learning.

I may think .com among others is a SOB sometimes, but he knows he is and he revels in it. Reminds me of my father in law actually, but I do respect his ability to present sound arguments, and he has convinced me to side with more than one of his opinions. Disturbing isn't it .com?

But again, it's great to see such discourse, argumentative or not as it shows people are thinking.

Fred, I immensely enjoy your sight. I may be a unique quantity in that as I am not politically aligned with most of your locals, but I realized long ago that listening is more conducive to learning than talking is.

Again, its nice to be back.

EP
Posted by ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding 2005-12-20 17:21||   2005-12-20 17:21|| Front Page Top

#67 LA, those who genuinely believe "rofl" backs up their arguments generally, in my experience, turn out not to have the intellectual capacity to type out the entire phrase. Prove me wrong, and we'll see how Rantburg works out for you.

Merry Christmas and happy Chanukah, folks.
Posted by Trailing Daughter #1 2005-12-20 17:30||   2005-12-20 17:30|| Front Page Top

#68 OilCan-
It's "Interdisciplinary Studies" now, NOT Liberal Arts, thank you very much. :)

Mike
USC '97
Interdisciplinary Studies
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-12-20 17:36||   2005-12-20 17:36|| Front Page Top

#69 Damn. Looks like a cyber car swarm over here.
Any big pieces left?
Posted by tu3031 2005-12-20 17:42||   2005-12-20 17:42|| Front Page Top

#70 Shhhhh, EP, lol! I sent the money, man, I promise - Western Onion!

BTW, I'm no run-o-the-mill SOB, I consider myself a pluperfect SOB, lol.

Y'know, it isn't, and wasn't, easy reaching any of the conclusions I have. I know some of the folks out there is IslamoWakiLands- but I also know they wouldn't hesitate for a second to bring the US down - whatever that takes. It took me about a year after leaving to begin thinking the unthinkable. And then more than another year to finally accept the fatal Us vs Them conclusion. That came when I realized they will leave us no choice, they will never stop. As long as they draw breath and have funds, they will seek our destruction.

Interestingly, or I think so, anyway, I haven't the same problem with our own seditious bastards - they can and should know better. Where the Islamonutz, both active and passive, have been indoctrinated from birth and do not see or hear enough of any other worldview to override it, our internal moonbats and Tranzis do - they've willfully chosen, with full knowledge, to become sheeple to the OWG they screech about so stridently. Willful ignorance zooms to the top of my targeting list - with a "bullet", so to speak.

Hard times ahead. And harder choices, for most.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 17:53||   2005-12-20 17:53|| Front Page Top

#71 Don't get me wrong, I concur with much of what you just said. Dhimmitude blather aside for many of my personally chosen vote recipients, but I grew up in the land of cotton and old times there are not forgotten.

However, I do believe procedure is important and see some definite lack thereof being displayed, not that others haven't or wouldn't do the same. I believe that liberty is costly, and fear for it from both sides of a political structure that seems to exist to perpetuate itself. I have a general distaste for all politicians though, but will admit I have been accused of politickin in my day as well.

NAFTA, Billy boy Clinton, god save the queen for that sell out of working class America. But this is a blog for defense issues, not politics so I'll save the diatribes for another more appropriate forum.

That being said, I seek the destruction of our enemies, hell I'm a gun totin' hick bastard who votes for total annihalation in my personal opines, but international politics is a game and I know sometimes even we mighty sons of liberty must play it.

But I'll agree to disagree and move forward with the opinion that rat bastards like yourself and others here would be welcome in my line against any enemy, foreign or domestic every day of the week.

Hoorah!

EP
Posted by ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding 2005-12-20 18:21||   2005-12-20 18:21|| Front Page Top

#72 The primary thing that I have learned about Repubs/cons is that they have a very odd relationship with REALITY

The primary thing I've learned about Dems/libs is that they have a limited grasp of punctuation and grammar. Which is what happens when you enroll your children in California’s “educational” system.
Posted by Secret Master 2005-12-20 18:37||   2005-12-20 18:37|| Front Page Top

#73 Merry Christmas to all! And a Happy New Year reading the Gazette! Go RAB! This is by far the best site on the net...
Posted by mjslack 2005-12-20 19:03||   2005-12-20 19:03|| Front Page Top

#74 re #34: Hating Islam is like hating rabies.

ROTFLMAO ! It's been a long day, and that really hit the spot.
Posted by cingold 2005-12-20 19:35||   2005-12-20 19:35|| Front Page Top

#75 Damnation!

Something happened and I seem to have missed it. It seems to have involved LA and his reactions to certain comments made by other RBers.

I miss all the fun

Old Patriot - I read your site from time to time.

LA/Anonymous - I hold a PhD in Religion, a BSc in Biology, a Doctor of Divinity (honorary, of course), a BS in Military History, and am working on another higher degree. I currently work security for one of the nation's most prestigious national laboratories (because it's how I can contribute to the WOT). My previous military experience is serving alongside men in uniform in the field in places we were not supposed to be (me especially as I could have been shot out of hand and those I worked for wouldn't have ever even acknowledged that I even existed).

I've been a lifelong Republican and I've even run for Congress (2000).

None of this makes me special or better than anyone else here on RB.

You see us as seeing what you call reality differently and thus, that viewpoint is completely invalid in your world and in your viewpoint.

OF COURSE IT IS! Did you really expect to see things any differently? If so, then you still have much to learn. That's not an insult, BTW - I still have much to learn.

Here's a clue - EVERYONE sees reality a little differently from everyone else.

That doesn't necessarily make their perceptions or viewpoints wrong.

Remember that when you judge, you are also being judged.

When people come to realize that they are being judged by people (or in my case at least, a much higher entity) who have different standards and values than their own, it often comes as a complete shock to their psyches. I do not hold the same moral values as my God does. I don't hold the same ones anyone else here on this list does (though we may share many of them, few of us share completely identical values).

That doesn't make us wrong. It doesn't make you wrong.

It makes us human.

Humans disagree with one another. It's part of what sets us apart from the animals and other lower forms. We have free will. That means the ability to choose what we think and what viewpoint to subscribe to.

Disagreement doesn't mean either of us are wrong.

It means we're human.

Deal with it.
Posted by FOTSGreg">FOTSGreg  2005-12-20 19:36||   2005-12-20 19:36|| Front Page Top

#76 Hard times ahead. And harder choices, for most.

Getting the ovens ready, .com?
Posted by Gromoger Spoling6144 2005-12-20 20:02||   2005-12-20 20:02|| Front Page Top

#77 
Positions are converging, the left wants:

Hating Islam is like hating rabbis.
Posted by Master of Obvious 2005-12-20 20:11||   2005-12-20 20:11|| Front Page Top

#78 Ovens?

Are you a Master Asshole or still only an Apprentice Asshole?

Shine my knob, fuckwit.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 20:12||   2005-12-20 20:12|| Front Page Top

#79 Left Angle /Anonymous /Gromoger Spoling6144 needs to hit the Sink Trap. I can't stand the arrogant Greek, but at least the Greek brings facts to the table with some logic, good vocabulary, and good spelling too. LA/A/GS6144 is only here to harass, and it's pathetic.
Posted by Darrell 2005-12-20 20:22||   2005-12-20 20:22|| Front Page Top

#80 GS will still be standing there, smugly prattling on, convinced it holds some sort of high ground, when those who would use ovens drag it away. Pathetic fool - can't read, hasn't paid attention, doesn't reason, never been anywhere, clueless, and defenseless.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 20:34||   2005-12-20 20:34|| Front Page Top

#81 I found this site a few months back by accident, I was looking for the "Truth", while this sounds vaguely religious, what really happened was that about 15 years ago my home was robbed and burnt to the ground in an sffort to cover the crime AND NOT A SINGLE REFERENCE WAS IN ANY NEWSPAPER, RADIO SPOT, TV, OR ANY FORM OF MEDIA WHATSOEVER.

This got me thinking just what else is left out as "Non Newsworthy" (And no, there was no big breaking news that would tend to drown "Little" stuff out, it was just ignored.)

Since then I've found that what's published is very highly manipulated, there's no such thing as "Free Press" anymore, it's all controlled and heavily slanted to a particular owners agenda.
Fortunately the owners agenda's do not all agree, so there are "Cracks" in coverage from time to time.

Then the phenominon known as Internet came to semi-maturity, and other folks who'd also noticed the slanted media began printing what really happened without the "Media's" determined slant, and things got much clearer.

Now, I read and watch several different sources and read what's more clearly the truth, still somewhat slanted, but the slants average out, I participate only if I have firsthand knowledge to pass along, and mostly I listen,learn and am silent.

I read Rantburg daily, because it's clearest as to "Who, What, When, Where, How and Why" I contribute rarely, and debate both when I do know, and when I want to learn.

Left Angle,(Or whatever alias you use)Parroting a "Party Line" gets you ignored.
Rational thought will get you listened to and discussed with, but not just mindless repeated slander.
Learn and grow, I did, and still am learning, it's painfull to learn that you've been lied to so severely that you believe those lies with all your heart, most folks can't get past the denial that they've been so fooled, that's you son, you've been had, bad. step one is to realize it, step two is to get mad, and step three is to try to find what the truth really is.
Posted by Redneck Jim 2005-12-20 20:34||   2005-12-20 20:34|| Front Page Top

#82 My own personal threshold has been crossed earlier on, both by LA/Anon and ALSO by the kill all the Muzzies talk. I guess that makes me one of the more 'liberal' moderators here at Fred's valuable site. But it is Fred's site and I yield to his judgements about where he draws the line. He's usually more lenient than I would be on such things. RB works, so who am I to second guess that?

I'm used to straddling several worlds. My undergrad is in the REAL liberal arts Mike LOL (St. John's College, 1970s where yes, I started with classical Greek and worked my way up to the 20th century in western thought, then later went back and did it in eastern thought as well). My first grad degree is in the humanities, 2nd in business, ongoing doctoral work in computer science / artificial intelligence and robotics. My professional practice was in high tech, both commercial and military markets and my spouse is a retired military officer. We both support the WOT via professional roles that contribute to our military today - which is why, by the way LA, I "hang around discussion boards" from time to time despite having spent many years working 60 and 70 hr weeks as a techie and then executive.

Like others here, I've learned some from our regular contributors and sometimes from newbies here. Perhaps I've broadened the viewpoints of a few others. And I try to help pay for my benefit from Rantburg by helping with the admin/mod chores.

My daughter was 1/4 mile from the Twin Towers on 9/11. We had friends in the wing of the Pentagon that was hit. And since I work with young soldiers and with officers, in the years since I have been to more than one funeral of heroes who sacrified their comfort, their time with families, their peace of mind and their lives on my behalf and yours. I am more humbled and more grateful for their service than I can put into words and it is my firm intent that that sacrifice will not be allowed to be frittered away or diluted by inattention or paralysis on the domestic political front.

I also blog from time to time elsewhere under another nym, usually under my real life name.
Posted by lotp 2005-12-20 20:50||   2005-12-20 20:50|| Front Page Top

#83 Left Angle /Anonymous /Gromoger Spoling6144 needs to hit the Sink Trap.

Gromoger Spoling6144 is a troll posting from Germany (Nördlingen).

Left Angle/Anonymous is posting from servers at a place I'm very familiar with.

Posted by Pappy 2005-12-20 20:54||   2005-12-20 20:54|| Front Page Top

#84 lotP... wew...you deserve a cruise, some time off, a vacation, et al.
Posted by Besoeker 2005-12-20 20:59||   2005-12-20 20:59|| Front Page Top

#85 You're very clever, .com, but remember, some people are ten steps ahead of you.

But it is Fred's site and I yield to his judgements about where he draws the line.

Fred (or the other mods) seems suspiciously quiet about the "kill all the muzzies" comments. There's only one conclusion...
Posted by Anginens Thrinesh2555 2005-12-20 20:59||   2005-12-20 20:59|| Front Page Top

#86 Well, that clarifies things, Pappy. I must apologize - GS has more experience with ovens than I ever will. No wonder it picked that term.

And here I thought it was only mindless twaddle from the land of the revolving-door prison system.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 21:01||   2005-12-20 21:01|| Front Page Top

#87 Fred (or the other mods) seems suspiciously quiet about the "kill all the muzzies" comments. There's only one conclusion...

Yes - that you don't read my comments in response to them. FWIW, I am a mod.
Posted by lotp 2005-12-20 21:10||   2005-12-20 21:10|| Front Page Top

#88 "..most folks can't get past the denial that they've been so fooled, that's you son, you've been had, bad. Step one is to realize it, step two is to get mad, and step three is to try to find what the truth really is." Redneck Jim speaks volumes. And AT2555 is stuck on step 3.
Posted by mjslack 2005-12-20 21:10||   2005-12-20 21:10|| Front Page Top

#89 Geez, don't any of the anonymous wankers out there think it through for themselves?

AT, have you been paying attention since 9/11? Even a little? You're either suffering from an attention deficit or diminished capacity to process the data.

You didn't read and comprehend what I wrote. Sheesh. Being honest is a waste of time.

The world you live in, that thing you call civilization and think is the norm, lol, it's as thin and fragile as a soap bubble. Much of the world - yes, that's correct - doesn't share your bubble. They don't much care what pontificating posturing faux-logic you employ nor how impressed you are with yourself. You're just an infidel. You and yours are mere cattle.

I'm not being clever, I'm experienced. The difference is huge.

Ah, nevermind. There's no point in this shit - which is why I've laid off posting as much recently. You and the other children prove the point to me every time I venture into more depth than the typical snark. Doesn't matter.

And the band played on.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 21:16||   2005-12-20 21:16|| Front Page Top

#90 Damn, Pappy, I hope I never tick you off! :)

And if this pathetic little Libral Arz graduate (Russian with a side of Spanish) can make a suggestion:

Could we knock it off with the "Kill the Muzzies" statements? Yup, a very few of them deserve killin', as the memorable phrase goes, but....substitute "Joooos" or "Americans" in there, and it could be an al-Qaeda/Fatah slogan. Rantburg's better than that.
Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-12-20 21:18|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com]  2005-12-20 21:18|| Front Page Top

#91 Anon and cronies are here in prep for the next presidential election. That's it, that all.

Political operatives (read, TROLLS) like Anon seek "fallow ground" in which to plant dissent and discord. By attempting to demonize conservative opposition (rather than offering substantive discourse), their aim is to gain a few followers by appealing to the undecided or left-leaning (which represents victory in their playbook), and also to weaken the confidence of the right (also a victory). Anon's devolvement into the nether world of insults and inuendo reveals the core plan, and, happily, it also reveals that Anon is feeling the heat.

Some advice about TROLLS: first, it ain't about what they're (supposedly) talking about; second, you can reason with them until you're blue in the face because it ain't about what they're talking about. Their agenda is outside the realm of reason or subject matter, so it's somewhat of a waste of time to banter with them. (I'm not saying it can't be fun, I'm just saying it's a waste of time). What isn't a waste of time is the wonderful opportunity to learn from TROLLS about TROLLS, and about the left.

Finally, of course we tolerate TROLLS here. IMO, Zenster is one of our beloved TROLLS on the Burg, and no one gives him too hard of a time despite the fact. And personally, I miss the old TROLL hunting safaris . . . used to be the bright spot in my day, but I just don't have enough time anymore, and the TROLLS have learned to steer clear.

So chill, Anon, and step up--or find somewhere else to play.




Posted by ex-lib 2005-12-20 21:28||   2005-12-20 21:28|| Front Page Top

#92 The only person that keeps mentioning that is the troll I think. I know I haven't seen anybody on here calling for it in a long time and they usually get squished for it.

Hell, even I don't call for it or advocate it and I tend to be more maliciously sarcastic than some.
Posted by Silentbrick">Silentbrick  2005-12-20 21:28||   2005-12-20 21:28|| Front Page Top

#93 .com, my friend, your "experience" goes back to 11th of September, 2001. Until that time you were living in blissful ignorance.

lotp, I'm thankful to you for having the courage to speak up when confronted with hate. But since this is Fred's site, I'd like to know what is his official opinion on the matter.
Posted by Chimble Chans3999 2005-12-20 21:35||   2005-12-20 21:35|| Front Page Top

#94 Getting the ovens ready, .com?

Gromoger Spoling6144, are you stuck on stupid or did you just get lucky this time? IT IS THE ISLAMOFASCISTS THAT WANT TO RESTART THE OVENS! Are you so totally unaware that you have not heard of how widely admired Hitler is in the Middle East? "Mein Kampf" remains a bestseller in many Arab countries. Have you ever heard of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion"? Do you have even a remote understanding of how Islamists would have ZERO compunctions about slaughtering this world's population wholesale so long as they managed to install sharia law?

Radical Muslims and all of their mysteriously silent "moderate" Islamic kinfolk are backing themselves into the ovens of genocide. Iran's pursuit of nuclear weapons in the cause of "wiping Israel off of the map" may well lead to the complete nuclear immolation of the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST.

Too often I have been falsely accused here of having a "kill them all" stance regarding Muslims. While this is not true, I have ZERO illusions regarding how it may well become necessary to exterminate every single believer in Islam if this perverted religion refuses to abandon its political ideology along with its agenda of violent conversion and jihad.

We who seek an end to terrorism are not the ones that envision a rekindling of the ovens. Such genocidal visions are the explicit domain of the Islamic terrorists. Should they make the choice one of us entering the ovens or them doing so, I will have ZERO hesitation in making sure it is they who fry into oblivion.

Get a clue. Our world faces the single greatest threat since the Nazis. If this is unclear to you, your accumulated knowledge and learning stand at dismally woeful levels. It is your own blithe disregard for the threat this world faces that is facilitating terrorists and the monstrous peril they represent.
Posted by Zenster 2005-12-20 21:39||   2005-12-20 21:39|| Front Page Top

#95 Redneck Jim, what you said. Sorry about your house burning down.
I started looking for more info when my son entered the military, before the 9/11. But only recently found this site.
Posted by Jan 2005-12-20 21:40||   2005-12-20 21:40|| Front Page Top

#96 About the "kill all the Muzzies" lingo -- should read "kill all the really bad Muzzies who won't stop their murderous, totalitarian political objectives." But everyone knows that already (some exceptions), and no one "hates" Moslems, per se, just because they're Moslem. It's what some of them DO, that's the problem. There's plenty of Moslems who are fine. Duh.
Posted by ex-lib 2005-12-20 21:46||   2005-12-20 21:46|| Front Page Top

#97 And this is why we love Zen --nicely reasoned discourse Zendude.

So shut up Anon, until you have something important to say.
Posted by ex-lib 2005-12-20 21:50||   2005-12-20 21:50|| Front Page Top

#98 CC, I was in Saudi Arabia on 9/11/01. Where were you?

I already had several clues. You still haven't acquired any.

I see you're still sucking lattes in LalaLand.

And the bland played on.
Posted by .com 2005-12-20 21:52||   2005-12-20 21:52|| Front Page Top

#99 Wow. Wotta thread! RE: #52 -I have met Fred, and he is NOT 14!

Not 14 years of age, anyway....
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 21:53||   2005-12-20 21:53|| Front Page Top

#100 #57 I also met Dan D. and he IS (just a little older than) 14 years old!

VERY bright young man!

Keep up the good work, Dan!
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 21:57||   2005-12-20 21:57|| Front Page Top

#101 My position on killing Muslims is here. I won't be responding to any more of LA's prattle. I don't have the time.
Posted by Fred 2005-12-20 22:00||   2005-12-20 22:00|| Front Page Top

#102 #54 Goodnight, LA.
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 22:02||   2005-12-20 22:02|| Front Page Top

#103 #66 Elvis! Glad to have you back, DUDE! Well said!
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 22:05||   2005-12-20 22:05|| Front Page Top

#104 #67 TW! Welcome aboard! NICE post! I wish my (semi-adult - 30, 28, 23 Iraqi veteran) children would read the 'Burg!
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 22:09||   2005-12-20 22:09|| Front Page Top

#105 Oops. Trailing DAUGHTER. I appreciate your Mother's wisdom, though!
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 22:10||   2005-12-20 22:10|| Front Page Top

#106 FOTS Greg. Agree.

BTW, what does FOTS stand for??
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 22:14||   2005-12-20 22:14|| Front Page Top

#107 where is Mrs. D, ifn it ain't a state secret?

love to see her post a comment on this thread. LOL!
Posted by Red Dog 2005-12-20 22:16||   2005-12-20 22:16|| Front Page Top

#108 #80. .com - short, SWEET, and to the point!
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 22:17||   2005-12-20 22:17|| Front Page Top

#109 Late to the party as always--- sorry, I am working a new job and don't want to be testing the corporate tolerance for internet surfing on their time...
Oh, and thanks, #31, for the pic of Ted Kennedy. Reminds me once again of why I have never liked the Kennedys... among their other failings, they do not age well.But I had already eaten, so I discovered it too late to add it to my personal diet plan.
"The world you live in, that thing you call civilization and think is the norm, lol, it's as thin and fragile as a soap bubble. Much of the world - yes, that's correct - doesn't share your bubble. They don't much care what pontificating posturing faux-logic you employ nor how impressed you are with yourself. You're just an infidel. You and yours are mere cattle."
Very cogent... about what I had also come to see as the way of the world, from being an English major and history minor. We live in the world we have, not the one we wish we had.
And yeah, I voted for Al Gore in 2000. I didn't think there was all that much between him and Bush, and metaphorically flipped a coin. I also remember voting for Anderson, sometime in the early 80ies, and stuffing envelopes for the Utah Chapter of NOW in the early 80ies. So much for political consistancy....
Posted by Sgt. Mom">Sgt. Mom  2005-12-20 22:23|| www.sgtstryker.com]">[www.sgtstryker.com]  2005-12-20 22:23|| Front Page Top

#110 Left Angel
In college I was too the left of Shining Path... (actually not but as the libertarian tests finds anybody who supports any tax to the left of shining path - thats where I was..)
Along came Jimmy Carter - ruined the nation's day, ruined the economy, ruined the begining of my carreer with a dead economy, let the Shah be overthrown by insane lunitic muslim nuts housed and fed by FRANCE and then pretended to be an ADULT.
The democrats seem to be missing ADULTS from their party. That's a problem.
So, if I want ADULTS to run the country the only contender is the Republicans by default.
I don't agree with everything they do and say but the are ADULTS and not SPOILED CHILDREN.
I would pray for another party of ADULTS just to give us some choices but I don't see it.

Posted by 3dc 2005-12-20 22:26||   2005-12-20 22:26|| Front Page Top

#111 Fred... A Classic????

Ahhh, nevermind.
Posted by Bobby 2005-12-20 22:30||   2005-12-20 22:30|| Front Page Top

#112 Seeing a thread with north of a hundred comments I thought perhaps Murat had returned...
Posted by Classical_Liberal 2005-12-20 22:37||   2005-12-20 22:37|| Front Page Top

#113 Murat shows up only when American soldiers die in large numbers at a time, such as in a 'copter crash. In which case I hope he never shows up. If he does, I've got him in my crosshairs. Never forgave him for that "raining Americans" comment.
Posted by Rafael 2005-12-20 22:45||   2005-12-20 22:45|| Front Page Top

#114 After 11 I want to post this as a link but it fits in this comment stream too:
Strategy Page: The Most Successful Propaganda Techniques
by James Dunnigan
December 20, 2005

# 1. Guilt By Association
# 2. Backstroke
# 3. Misinformation
# 4. Over Humanization
# 5. Name Calling
# 6. He Said, She Said
# 7. Unproven "Facts"
# 8. Lying Sometimes complete lies are told
# 9. Telling the Truth, For a While To throw people off the track
# 10. Not Talking at all about Something
# 11. Subtle Inaccuracies/Dismissive Tone Misstating a topic, often a serious one, and pretending any objecting or concerned view is silly, unrealistic, or just not necessary.
# 12. A One One Punch pretending to represent two sides, but one side gets a couple of great lines , the other side gets a lame line.
# 13. Volume This is related to Coordination, it is merely a deluge of the same story line everywhere, until it becomes dominant, and the media's view of it becomes the dominant view
# 14. Coordination This occurs when a number of like minded journalists all report the same angle at about the same time.
# 15. Fogging an Issue/Total Nonsense Sometimes certain groups have an interest in making sure that as few people pay attention to an issue as possible.# 16. 2,3,4 Technique Mentioning only one side of an issue 2, 3, or 4 times in an article, each time pretending you are about to present the opposing side, but you never do. Then the article suddenly ends and the reader feels bombarded, outnumbered and alone.
# 17. Preemptive Strike This is when the writer "attacks" the reader viciously at the very outset of the article with the "acceptable" view of the topic. The writer tries to "beat it into" the reader.
# 18. Framing the Debate Setting an argument around two "alternatives" which you would prefer, rather than the true alternatives.

# 19. Token Equal Time Sometimes a weak, tiny understatement is added to a propaganda piece, apparently so the writer can pretend they had been fair.
# 20. "Interpreting" A Statement Have you ever seen a writer say that someone said something, then what the person said followed, but it didn't look anything like what the writer claimed was meant?
# 21. Withholding Information Is it the same as lying? Some in the media might not want to answer that question.
# 22. Distracting or Absurd Metrics With this technique, the writer attempts to drag the reader into a debate about what the reader is even seeing. This is usually used when the propagandist is falling behind and must hurry to destroy correct understanding of events.
Posted by 3dc 2005-12-20 22:58||   2005-12-20 22:58|| Front Page Top

#115 Hey Sgt. Mom: Always read stuff that will make you look good if you die in the middle of it. - P.J. O'Rourke
Rantburgs the place to be for that problem. Civil and Well Reasoned, of course... :)
Posted by mjslack 2005-12-20 23:07||   2005-12-20 23:07|| Front Page Top

#116 Fred, regarding the link on # 101,
TANCREDO IN 2008!
Posted by Jan 2005-12-20 23:38||   2005-12-20 23:38|| Front Page Top

#117 Thanks all for an interesting thread and happy holidays from your humble moderators!
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-12-20 23:57||   2005-12-20 23:57|| Front Page Top

#118 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Chimble Chans3999 2005-12-20 21:35||   2005-12-20 21:35|| Front Page Top

#119 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Anginens Thrinesh2555 2005-12-20 20:59||   2005-12-20 20:59|| Front Page Top

#120 Off-topic or abusive comments deleted]
Posted by Huputing Hupeating4484 2005-12-20 12:52||   2005-12-20 12:52|| Front Page Top

12:52 Huputing Hupeating4484
20:59 Anginens Thrinesh2555
21:35 Chimble Chans3999
23:59 Old Marine
23:57 Seafarious
23:52 DMFD
23:46 ed
23:38 DMFD
23:38 Jan
23:26 3dc
23:17 Rafael
23:16 Jan
23:13 Rafael
23:12 Oldspook
23:09 Oldspook
23:07 mjslack
23:06 Bomb-a-rama
23:05 3dc
22:58 3dc
22:55 Rafael
22:54 Rafael
22:52 Barbara Skolaut
22:45 Rafael
22:41 Bobby









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