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2004-12-20 Europe
Dutch minister opposes EU balloting on Turkey
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Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-12-20 23:46|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Sharing sovereignty is a big thing. Like marriage, it should be voluntary on both sides.

So far enlargement has usually been confirmed with referenda on *one* end, that of the acceding countries. (Sidenote: There was one exception actually -- France held a referendum before allowing UK, Ireland and Denmark to accede back in 1973)

But anyway, when there's doubt on the part of the countries already inside the union, it makes sense to have referenda there as well.

-

As a sidenote, for a supposedly imperialistic and Nazi-like power, the EU seems too reluctant to grab more territory, but said new territory is celebrating even a distance chance of becoming a part of us. Fancy that.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-20 12:26:49 AM||   2004-12-20 12:26:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I'll believe it when it happens. The Turks aren't 'xactly popular in the rest of Europe.
Posted by Steve White  2004-12-20 12:32:14 AM||   2004-12-20 12:32:14 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Actually Aris, there is nothing fancy about it if you look at it from the point of view that the EU actually needed the eastern Europeans to join, economically speaking. Turkey will never be able to match what eastern Europe had to offer in this respect, and if it did, I venture that there would be no postponing Turkey's membership. Sure Turkey would have to change some things, but there would be no "debating" it and no referendums.
Posted by Rafael 2004-12-20 12:38:29 AM||   2004-12-20 12:38:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I have no opinion either way. I would hope the same method as has been used in the past would be used. That seems fair. But many countries want a vote on it.

Just gettting ready for accession talks has been good for Turkey.
Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-12-20 12:46:23 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com]  2004-12-20 12:46:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I'm not sure what exactly it is that you are arguing -- that if Turkey's entry becomes unequivocally good for the EU, then there won't be much disagreement about its entry? That's obvious, but it doesn't tell us much.

My argument was that usually for imperialists, the expansion of territory is felt to be *itself* a good. And usually the encroached-upon nations tend to be afraid and resentful, not joyous at the "conquest".

If a neighbouring nation to the Soviet Union for example had said "Conquer us please", I don't think the old USSR would be as reluctant about it as the EU is about Turkey's membership. And likewise with China, Nazi Germany, and pretty much every other conquering power in the history of the world.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-20 12:48:54 AM||   2004-12-20 12:48:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Aris, you mentioned reluctance on the part of the EU to grab more territory. I'm arguing that reluctance has little to do with it. If it were profitable (not only in the monetary sense) to accept more states, the EU would expand all the way to the Urals.
Posted by Rafael 2004-12-20 1:28:19 AM||   2004-12-20 1:28:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 If it were profitable to accept more states, the EU would expand all the way to the Urals.

And assuming those other states *wanted* it to expand to cover them. Meaning, if it was *mutually* profitable.

I don't disagree with you but once again I think you are missing my point, namely that imperialists tend to see grabbing more territory as something they want to do by *itself*, regardless of whether logically it's profitable or not.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-12-20 1:37:45 AM||   2004-12-20 1:37:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Going back to your original statement, your argument can be paraphrased as "the EU is reluctant to grab more territory, therefore it is not an imperialistic power".

I'm merely saying, that if you're looking to show that the EU is not imperialistic, then you should not rely solely on its reluctance to grab territory as proof. I claim the opposite, in fact. The EU is not reluctant. It's only waiting for the opportunity to present itself. It isn't there yet with Turkey.
Posted by Rafael 2004-12-20 2:41:44 AM||   2004-12-20 2:41:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 i would like to see a program of massive church building in turkey to test the waters--let immigration become a two way street
Posted by SON OF TOLUI 2004-12-20 2:56:57 AM||   2004-12-20 2:56:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Who would want to move to Turkey??? For one, they have world's worst construction standards (if any at all). Can't build a home.
Posted by Rafael 2004-12-20 3:02:44 AM||   2004-12-20 3:02:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Err, some 80.000 Europeans have moved and are living already in Turkey, most of them at old age, enjoying a villa life on the beautiful beaches of Turkey (kind of a Florida).

And what is that bulshit of land grab, Turkey and Europe are both benefiting economically that's what counts. The Frenchies and some other countries are verbally harsh against Turkey for inner politics but when it comes to deeds the picture is different.
Posted by Murat 2004-12-20 7:00:42 AM||   2004-12-20 7:00:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Murat is right. As the old saying goes in the U.S., "just follow the money." France will have no real problem with Turkey joining as long as it gives France some new economic advantage. If France is lucky, it will become a secular Islamic republic rather than just an Islamic republic.
Posted by Tom 2004-12-20 8:07:26 AM||   2004-12-20 8:07:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Re #5 "I'm not sure what exactly it is that you are arguing...":
Aris, perhaps not every comment is an argument.
Posted by Tom 2004-12-20 8:10:04 AM||   2004-12-20 8:10:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 France is not completely stupid. They've learned that colonialism is a costly affair. It's much more profitable to have Dane geld paid to you than to actually conqueror and administer.

The New and Improved Capitulations!
Posted by Psycho Hillbilly 2004-12-20 10:52:46 AM||   2004-12-20 10:52:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Great another welfare state of 66 million with ethnic strife and a simmering civil war in the east. Not to mention opposition to any Iraqi Kurd autonomy which is the only house in order in that Hellhole. Bad gamble.
Posted by Rightwing 2004-12-20 12:31:08 PM||   2004-12-20 12:31:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 I hope the EU takes on Turkey.
Posted by 2b 2004-12-20 12:35:11 PM||   2004-12-20 12:35:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 The Frenchies and some other countries are verbally harsh against Turkey for inner politics but when it comes to deeds the picture is different.

Say that if, and when, Turkey gains EU membership. Any sooner, and it's only wishful thinking.
Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2004-12-20 2:41:43 PM||   2004-12-20 2:41:43 PM|| Front Page Top

00:42 Billy Hank
00:02 True German Ally
23:59 True German Ally
23:53 Grolurt Shutle8331
23:49 Grolurt Shutle8331
23:46 Aris Katsaris
23:38 Ady
23:35 True German Ally
23:17 Mike Sylwester
23:15 Mike Sylwester
23:03 cingold
23:00 Bomb-a-rama
22:52 Aris Katsaris
22:50 Poison Reverse
22:47 Asedwich
22:46 Asedwich
22:44 Aris Katsaris
22:44 Poison Reverse
22:40 Atomic Conspiracy
22:39 True German Ally
22:36 True German Ally
22:36 jackal
22:33 Frank G
22:33 Poison Reverse









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