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2004-12-10 Europe

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Posted by ed 2004-12-10 11:44|| || Front Page|| [11126 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Before you laugh at the silly comparison, remember that the Western military tradition is European. Today the continent is unarmed and weak, but deep within its collective mind and spirit still reside the ability to field technologically sophisticated and highly disciplined forces â if it were ever to really feel threatened. One murder began to arouse the Dutch; what would 3,000 dead and a toppled Eiffel Tower do to the French? Or how would the Italians take to a plane stuck into the dome of St. Peter?

This is an excellent point! It's as if it's all happening in slow motion. Western Civilization doesn't just stop and turn around on a dime ...it's like a thundering herd that runs together. But 9/11 and other events have caused the herd to slow, to looking around. Woe to our enemies when, as a group, we turn to face them.

Posted by 2b 2004-12-10 1:52:01 PM|| 2004-12-10 1:52:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#2 I don't think a plane stuck in St Peter's Dome would wake up my Church hierarchy, though.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2004-12-10 2:03:47 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:03:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#3 Or how would the Italians take to a plane stuck into the dome of St. Peter?

I would like to think that it wouldnt just be Italians expressing outrage to that one.

Posted by eLarson 2004-12-10 2:03:51 PM|| [http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2004-12-10 2:03:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#4 Tolkien geek hat on.

Lord of the Rings was essentially complete by 1945. And as Tolkien himself has stated, the plot was largely established beyond change by 1939. So unless he was a prophet, it was NOT about post war American dominance, the USSR, or the Atom bomb.

Youd think a classicist would be more careful about drawing conclusions from texts.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-12-10 2:04:30 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:04:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#5 Liberalhawk, what makes you think the decline of England and Europe -- and a sense of doom and larger decline - only started after WWII? Tolkien himself talked a lot about the massive loss of life among his friends during WWI and certainly trench and chemical warfare experienced by Tolkien's generation had a huge impact on western Europe's sense of pride and view of the future.

Moreover, US technological leadership was emerging well before WWII as well. Consider the impact on England of the steamboat, the telegraph and telephone, all (except the telephone) invented in the 19th century and all American inventions. And while a Brit did invent an incandescent lightbulb, Edison's was the one that took the market by storm, changing the character of village life as they switched from gaslight to the brighter electrical ones. Moreover, it was the Americans who introduced 19th century business changes like mail order catalogues, which also impacted rural life in Britain over time.

VDH knows his history well.

Posted by rkb 2004-12-10 2:18:55 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:18:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#6 Tolkien's not a "text." More like an experience, man

Posted by lex 2004-12-10 2:19:21 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:19:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#7 Seriously, what rkb said. Britain's decline and the rising US's energy and soon-to-be established hegemony were a sub-theme of post-WWI English and (in Yeats' case) literature. Forster, Ford Madox Ford, Waugh, Maugham: everyone with experience beyond Europe recognized that the amazing productivity and extraordinary growth of the US, combined with Britain's rapid decline (they lost ~10% of their male population, and a much higher % of their aristocratic class, in WWI), meant that by the 1930s the best hope for protecting Britain's interests had passed to the yanks. Waugh hated the very thought of this; Forster was optimistic; Maugham and others were resigned to it.

Posted by lex 2004-12-10 2:24:51 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:24:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 There will be no Spartan awakening or thundering herd to the rescue. In two of the countries mentioned the battle is already lost. In the Netherlands, the majority of babies born in the cities are Muslim. In France, already 1/3 of all babies born are Muslim. In 10 years, 1/2 of all babies will be Muslim. The situation is probably worse in Belgium. All they have to do is sit tight and collect benefits for the next 30 years and the Muslims will own the core of western Europe.

Posted by ed 2004-12-10 2:26:04 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:26:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Liberalhawk,
VDH wrote "scholars bicker" over bomb,etc,VDH did not say HE was interpretating texts that way. As to American power and fear of Soviet Union,they were very real to Englishmen in the post-WW I era. Soviet Russia was evil to a great many Englishmen who had faith in "traditional English values".Post-war Great Britain refused-for first time to-engage in naval arms race w/US,because Britain knew it would lose. Further,new research believes Tolkien was heavily influenced by First World War,which did not end til major US intervention.

Posted by Stephen 2004-12-10 2:29:12 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:29:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 There will be no Spartan awakening or thundering herd to the rescue

Agree re overall numbers ("herd") but not sure we will not see the rise of a few brave and clearsighted Spartans. Look at how quickly ordinary Dutchmen and women have turned around. The elites are clueless, but you have large and spontaneous demands for toughness and an end to PC idiocy. I would bet there are many more Fortuyns, Fabrizio Quattrocchis and Oriana Fallacis in Old Europe than we suppose.

Posted by lex 2004-12-10 2:50:07 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:50:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 in the face of the American democratic colossus, the Soviet Union's tentacles, or the un-chivalrous age of the bomb

Couldnt have looked forward to the age of the bomb. It wasnt even clear one could be built in 1939. Probably didnt like the USSRs tentacles, but far from clear how long theyd be in 1939. And yes, the US WAS a rising economic and cultural colossus pre-39 - which is why I said POSTWAR american dominance - the prewar phenomenon was quite different.

In any case I think its pretty clear Tolkien was bemoaning the loss of a general pre-industrial world - he would have mourned the loss of inns and small farms in New England as much in his own old England. He certainly had a POLITICAL sense of people avoiding dark threats - I think thats as much the impending threat of fascism, as the threat of Communism, and certainly is NOT the threat from the US - CS Lewis, one of Tolkiens closest friends, had an American wife, IIRC.

Im not challenging VDHs awareness of history, but his detailed knowledge of Tolkien lore. From the quote above, it sounds like VDH thinks LOTR was written post 1946. Post-Imperial Britain? When Tolkien was writing LOTR, the Union Jack flew over India (including Pakistan, Bangladesh, ) over much of the Middle East, and over half of Africa. Depending on WHICH chapter of LOTR youre talking about, they had lost Burma,Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong to the Japanese, and very small parts of Egypt to the Germans/Italians. All of which they were fighting very hard to get back. Post-Imperial my foot.

This is just sloppy, deny it all you want.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-12-10 2:58:57 PM|| 2004-12-10 2:58:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 You're not goin' Aris on us, are you, LH?

Posted by lex 2004-12-10 3:05:11 PM|| 2004-12-10 3:05:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Actually, lex, I think he already has. There's been a noticeable shift in tone since Nov 2nd. IMHO. Not good, that, I miss the "meet you in the middle" Lh.
:-/

Posted by .com 2004-12-10 3:11:55 PM|| 2004-12-10 3:11:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 When Tolkien was writing LOTR, the Union Jack flew over India (including Pakistan, Bangladesh, ) over much of the Middle East, and over half of Africa ... they had lost Burma,Malaya, Singapore and Hong Kong to the Japanese, and very small parts of Egypt to the Germans/Italians. All of which they were fighting very hard to get back. Post-Imperial my foot

Well, Churchill and others realized by the end of WWI that the Empire was gone. And the lousy state of the British military in the early and mid 1930s -- which Churchill deplored -- suggests someone wasn't interested in conquest / keeping overseas territory.

Lewis didn't meet Mrs. Joy Davidson Gresham until 1952 and didn't marry her until after her divorce and the visa issue arose in 1956. Red herring.

Posted by too true 2004-12-10 3:14:05 PM|| 2004-12-10 3:14:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Lex - Im pretty mild compared to SOME Tolkien geeks :).

Dot com - since Nov 2, criticising Bush doesnt mean backing Kerry. Theres no more fear that a criticism of Bush could mean Bush losing. Now Bush has won, and doing right is HIS responsibility. And I feel freer to call on him to do right, and point out when hes doing wrong. Im still prepared to meet in the middle, and I would suggest that there are few partisan dems who would be comfortable with what ive posted here SINCE Nov 2. But if "meet in the middle" means that you think of me as a moderate Republican, who likes Bush but doesnt like Anne Coulter, youve got me wrong.

Too true - good factual point on Lewis, but my point was that Tolkien wasnt hanging with an antiAmerican crowd. Churchill pointed out UK military weakness wrt another great power war - they had more than enough to keep order in the empire. And I dont think Churchill recognized the empire was gone, hell we went into the political wilderness in large part because of his uncompromising stand on India, IIUC.

In any case, even if it was clear that the empire was doomed, Britain was NOT post Imperial, in the normal meaning of that term, before 1946. Really. We might as well refer to post Soviet Russia, starting in, say, 1973, since foresighted by then already realized the USSR could not survive. But thats not how we use words in English. Its clear that VDH doesnt have the foggiest when Tolkien wrote LOTR. Dismiss this as fanboy geekery if you wish, but VDH is basing the whole column on this.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-12-10 4:11:33 PM|| 2004-12-10 4:11:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Lol - now that's Lh, heh. Okay, bro, you're the honorable opposition & resident gadfly, lol! I salute you and look forward to future engagements. May you lose your ass as gracefully as you just handed me mine, heh. ;-)

Posted by .com 2004-12-10 4:16:07 PM|| 2004-12-10 4:16:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 I'm bored of the rings. Let's talk about the social insights and the class warfare which is the real plot of The House on Pooh Corner.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-10 4:36:19 PM|| 2004-12-10 4:36:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 said Christopher Robin.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-12-10 4:51:45 PM|| 2004-12-10 4:51:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 "Russian tentacles" were pretty obvious in 1939. Beyond all Soviet rhetoric about communism conquering the world,there were the actions of Soviet Union itself. Contributed heavily to one side in Spanish Civil War. Fought and won a pretty serious border war w/Japan in 1939. Attacked Finland,and in height of idiocy,British political leaders suggested entering war w/Finland AGAINST Soviet Russia,mostly to grab Swedish ore,but also because West Europe public opinion was for Finns. Also proposals to bomb Russian oil fields to keep Russia from supplying Hitler. The Baltic countries were gobbled up by Soviet Union as result of pact w/Hitler. Finally,after Britain went to war w/Germany over Poland,the Russians also invaded Poland. We'll just ignore the great PR from the purges,the murder of Trotsky,the collectivization of the farms,etc.

Posted by Stephen 2004-12-10 5:43:20 PM|| 2004-12-10 5:43:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Tiger is obviously exploited by the violence inherent in the system, Shipman

Posted by Secret Master 2004-12-10 5:49:47 PM|| 2004-12-10 5:49:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Milne was listening to the inner deep rage of the brilliant everyman Eeeeyore fighting the establishment intellectual Owl, all the while constrainted by the Union Thug activities of rabbit and his assorted friends and relatives.

The transformation of EDWARD BEAR into POOH was part and parcel of the DIALECTIC by CR and CRs quest for One Wood Government OWG and the alliance of the HONEY industry with the HAYCORN---VIS A VIS YOUNG OAK lobby. The HUFFALUMP is the creature that CR will use to impose OWG on the YOUTH, SMALL and ROO with their special medicines.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-10 5:55:06 PM|| 2004-12-10 5:55:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 That's an awful lot of CAPS action, Shipman; be careful you're not mistaken for someone else.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-12-10 6:07:53 PM|| 2004-12-10 6:07:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Truth DEMANDS cap action.
And LOTS of IT!
GOD made upper case and bold type faces for a reason and the reason is COMMUNICATION! Think of constant cap lock action like the burning bush. LOL I am nearing hellfire now.... Maybe Heyzues come back has a lowly blower who is crucified BECAUSE OF CONSTANT CAPS. hee hee!

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-10 6:17:36 PM|| 2004-12-10 6:17:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Ahhhhhh! the Mendiolabot is infectious!

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-10 6:18:15 PM|| 2004-12-10 6:18:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 That'n be lowly blogger OF COURSE.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-10 6:18:35 PM|| 2004-12-10 6:18:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 LH: "Couldnt have looked forward to the age of the bomb. It wasnt even clear one could be built in 1939."

Considering that "By the Waters of Babylon" by Stephen Vincent Benet was published in 1937 and the story appears to involve a post new clear a pork a lips, methinx the failure of imagination is yourn alone.

Posted by Dr August Balls of Nice 2004-12-10 6:36:43 PM|| 2004-12-10 6:36:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Well, Britain wasn't post imperial in 1939, or even 45. What had changed (and what churchill lamented in the 30s) was the nature of empire, we had moved from a militaristic slant to a fully commercial one. After all the British empire came about for commercial rather than ideological reasons (which is the new American empire based on i wonder?) for trading slaves and opium primarily, it just evolved. After world war two when holding vast amounts of land around the world became untenable and unrealistic we focused much more on the commonwealth and Sterling Banking area, as that gave us propriatary trade agreements without the need to govern the coutries via military force. I agree that tolkein lamented an end of a simpler time and the march of industrialisation and mechanisation and, as these were certainly given a massive boost by world war one, perhaps there is a grain of truth in the analogy of the article, but i would say you have to squint to see it.

Posted by WingedAvenger 2004-12-10 9:34:51 PM|| 2004-12-10 9:34:51 PM|| Front Page Top

04:07 on1117
03:52 on1117
00:15 Darth VAda
00:10 tipper
23:31 Darth VAda
23:14 VRWconspiracy
23:13 .com
23:09 WingedAvenger
23:09 WingedAvenger
23:06 WingedAvenger
23:05 Desert Blondie
23:03 WingedAvenger
23:03 OldSpook
22:58 Barbara Skolaut
22:55 Pappy
22:53 Desert Blondie
22:49 Don
22:43 ST
22:41 Frank G
22:37 someone
22:35 .com
22:35 Frank G
22:30 Frank G
22:25 Sock Puppet of Doom