Article

2008-12-02 Science & Technology

New Turbine Design could reduce Wind Energy Costs

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Posted by mhw 2008-12-02 09:25|| || Front Page|| [11130 views ] Top

#1 Let's talk about the dirty secret of wind turbines. Given that the wind can chnage from second to second, wind farms have to be complemented with gas powered generators. TRhese act by heating water so when the wind weakens and the gas turbine has to enter service there is energy lost (respective to conventional gas-powered generator) in order to bring water to boiling point: ie you are using gas and producing zero energy output. When the wind stiffens again the gas turbine goes off but that means you lose the energy you had used in getting the water hot.

In other ords the attached gas turbine is a lot less efficient than the one in a gas plant.

If you make a new more wind turbine design with doubled efficiency you must also double the size of the gas turbine who must be able, when there is no wind, able to produce 2*N instead of N watts.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-12-02 10:18|| 2008-12-02 10:18|| Front Page Top

#2 A 1MW wind turbine is about 125 feet in diameter. I'd like to see a shroud anywhere near that size and the support structure to hold it in place.

Posted by ed 2008-12-02 10:28|| 2008-12-02 10:28|| Front Page Top

#3 It's even more fundamental than that. My next door neighbor has a small windmill. Sometimes it turns. But many times it don't turn when it should. Either it's pointing in the wrong direction because the wind shifted or the gearing is wrong. He paid $15K. He is not happy.

Posted by Minister of funny walks 2008-12-02 10:31|| 2008-12-02 10:31|| Front Page Top

#4 Imma gonna put a waterwheel in the creek.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2008-12-02 11:34|| 2008-12-02 11:34|| Front Page Top

#5 this farmer/rancher in the Saudi Arabia of Wind energy (Kansas) has replaced water windmills with solar pumps. Why? more dependable and you can't keep the aeromotors working and when they break down you can't find anyone to fix them.

Posted by bman 2008-12-02 12:06|| 2008-12-02 12:06|| Front Page Top

Posted by GolfBravoUSMC 2008-12-02 12:08|| 2008-12-02 12:08|| Front Page Top

#7 Obviously Wind Power has some downside,

however,

1. Assuming better energy storage devices are developed, wind power will be a major beneficiary. With so many different technologies being advanced, this seems a pretty decent bet.

2. The shroud would only work with some wind turbines; obviously not the huge ones. However, one effect of the shroud would be to allow for shorter blade size (which would mean, among other things, more densely developed wind farm areas, i.e., more turbines/acre).

3. At this point in time, the single most important constraint on wind power is the lack of transmission lines from the very rural areas where wind farms are desired and wind conditions are good.

Posted by mhw 2008-12-02 13:07|| 2008-12-02 13:07|| Front Page Top

#8 More bad news for wind energy: a recent article in one of the Seattle papers ( i think) was suggesting that wind farms can change the weather by a compination of removing energy from wind so that patterns are affected, or the turbulence from the blades can casue the weather fronts to move in reation to that turbulence. thier research went on to admit the theorized farm size was much bigger than any seen to date, but ".. well you can't be too careful..."

the reduction in available energy makes sense to me, but blade turbulence causing wx patern shifts seems a bit much. its not like we are comparing this to wing tip vortices on aircraft and how they affect other nearby aircraft....

time to put an option on that nearby cave, that's all we will be allowed to live in after the 'learned elite' gets done.

Posted by USN, Ret. 2008-12-02 14:22|| 2008-12-02 14:22|| Front Page Top

#9 There is also the turbine blade and bird strike issue. No stats available, but I'm sure the PETA website has something.

Posted by Besoeker 2008-12-02 14:31|| 2008-12-02 14:31|| Front Page Top

#10 the 'wind-turbines hurts birds' argument is pretty dead

utility lines, tall buildings, communication towers and other such things take out about 1 million birds per day vs. about 500 per day by all the wind turbines together worldwide

Posted by mhw 2008-12-02 16:11|| 2008-12-02 16:11|| Front Page Top

#11 Domestic cats kill 100mil birds a year. That is an doorstep estimate of course. Turbine kills amounted to 37,000 annually, based on counts at the base of the towers.

Posted by Skunky Glins 5***">Skunky Glins 5*** 2008-12-02 21:41|| 2008-12-02 21:41|| Front Page Top

#12 100 million? reaaallllyy? My cat can't catch her shadow

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-12-02 21:50|| 2008-12-02 21:50|| Front Page Top

#13 I think there's only 60 million cats in the US. So that would work out to about 1 2/3 birds per cat per year.

For some cats that estimate is probably high, and for some cats that are good birders, it's probably very, VERY low.

Posted by Thing From Snowy Mountain 2008-12-02 22:16|| 2008-12-02 22:16|| Front Page Top

#14 My cat has had fairly good luck at catching its tail but somehow it always seems to get away again...

Posted by Jolutch Mussolini7800 2008-12-02 22:25|| 2008-12-02 22:25|| Front Page Top

#15 in the cities, most cats are indoor cats (like mine, who's 14 yrs old, not very bright and would be short-lived outside, gawdloveher), so I think the estimate is a leeetle off. I've heard numbers like this before (no offense, Skunky), and it always seemed like Audubon nonsense. I remain unconvinced (except that birders seemed predisposed to alarmism - see Chicken Little)

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2008-12-02 22:28|| 2008-12-02 22:28|| Front Page Top

#16 Just cover the California coast with windmills that are using the power generated to do reverse osmosis on seawater turning it into usable water.

Then you don't need to depend on it for power nor care if it is an even source of power.

When the wind blows you make pure water.. When it doesn't nothing happens.

Water could be used for drinking/irrigation/whatever.
California is always short of water - that's why they steal it from elsewhere.

Posted by 3dc 2008-12-02 23:00|| 2008-12-02 23:00|| Front Page Top

23:52 OldSpook
23:40 OldSpook
23:32 eltoroverde
23:31 Frank G
23:12 JAB
23:01 3dc
23:00 3dc
22:56 Zhang Fei
22:55 Frank G
22:49 Zhang Fei
22:39 DMFD
22:31 tu3031
22:28 Frank G
22:27 USN,Ret.
22:25 Jolutch Mussolini7800
22:19 tu3031
22:16 Thing From Snowy Mountain
22:07 JosephMendiola
21:55 JosephMendiola
21:50 Frank G
21:49 USN,Ret.
21:41 Skunky Glins 5***
21:24 Hellfish
21:05 rjschwarz