Article

2004-11-16 Israel-Palestine

Israeli sub UPDATE: Navy: Sub was likely from NATO

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Posted by Poison Reverse 2004-11-16 10:25:21 AM|| || Front Page|| [4 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 True German Ally or Old Spook,

What's going on? Give me the scoop.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2004-11-16 10:36:13 AM|| 2004-11-16 10:36:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I hunted subs in this area back in '96. I doubt it was russian. They would have been picked up going thru the hellespont and they haven't had the $ to train the black sea fleet for a long time.

My gut feeling lends to France. Turkey/Eygpt only have diesels - they couldn't high tail it out underwater for long once detected - the batteries would drain. Diesels are good for about 3-7kts underwater and very short sprints. The report never says the sub surfaced, making me lean towards a nuke. The French have nukes and are very competent - plus keeping in mind how they took in Arafat so willingly and are trying to take every opportunity to assert itself as a world power.

I'd put $ on it that they do know whos it is but are keeping quiet about it. They definately were able to get some tonals to track it and tonals are like finger prints - unique to each ship. We're probably not getting the whole story here - at least not the ending. I'd also bet we have one of ours in the area now to to monitor the situation.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-11-16 11:09:46 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:09:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 YS,

Thanks man.

I was thinking French at first but I changed my mind because I didn't think they would be THAT stupid. I don't think Israel would think twice about destroying a French sub. But, they would think twice about destroying a Russian sub. Then again, anything the French does, doesn't surprise me anymore.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2004-11-16 11:22:57 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:22:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I know who owns this particular submarine.

Posted by Baltic Blog 2004-11-16 11:25:37 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:25:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 BB,

If you don't mind, let's keep this thread on the serious side. Foreign sub penetration in sovereign waters is serious business. A lot Jews could have died.

Posted by Poison Reverse 2004-11-16 11:32:01 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:32:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Debka was claiming yesterday that it was American.

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2004-11-16 11:34:18 AM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2004-11-16 11:34:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 France? Gosh, what's most disturbing is what that could mean. Am I alone in thinking that Chirac could be as much of a menace as Hitler?

Now before you discount that as absurd...think about it. Chirac's actions have become very disturbing lately. His willingness to not even bother to hide his cozy dealings with bloody handed thugs is truly disturbing.

Sometimes you need to just shed preconceived notions. Remember when everyone was saying that the Turks would come around and be available for a Northern Front? That was because all in power had preconceived notions about Turkey and thus failed to see the obvious staring them in the face.

It's time we did the same for France that we should have done with Turkey. Chirac is an enemy. It's right in front of our noses. We need to let go of the past and see him for what he is - a enemy that needs to be addressed.

Posted by 2b 2004-11-16 11:39:53 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:39:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Laurence of the Rats

Yup - could easily have been one of ours too.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-11-16 11:44:20 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:44:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 That's a good way to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-16 11:54:29 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:54:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 What would we be doing there? Unless it was an accident.

Posted by J 2004-11-16 11:57:09 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:57:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Sam: Subs in the Med could be from the Northern Fleet. That's still fairly active.

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-11-16 11:58:10 AM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-11-16 11:58:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Meaning, wouldnt Israel allowed us to have a sub in thier waters if we had asked? Unless we were spying on Israel.

Posted by J 2004-11-16 11:58:42 AM|| 2004-11-16 11:58:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Sort of like the Liberty?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-16 12:03:31 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:03:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Chuck Simmins -

Yeah they're active but they haven't transited the Straights of Gibralter in a long time - they'd been picked up there too. SOSUS stations would have also picked him up transiting the GUIK Gap heading south.

My hunch is still France or US.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-11-16 12:15:35 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:15:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Chuck - also forgot to add that the artciles says it was likely a NATO sub - ie - they picked up tonals and or blade counts to classify it as NATO. I'm pretty sure they know whos' it was.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-11-16 12:18:23 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:18:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#16

#13: Were you going anywhere with that?

Posted by Crusader 2004-11-16 12:29:54 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:29:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Only pointing out that a US sub would not necessarily be welcome in Israeli waters unless it was an arranged passage. They've made the point forcefully, even when we were only close. That is why I tried to find a link that wasn't too far gone one way or the other on exactly what happened or why. But it did happen.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-11-16 12:33:00 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:33:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 I thought the SOSUS line was being dismantled infavor of more mobile listeners?

Posted by Shipman 2004-11-16 12:56:06 PM|| 2004-11-16 12:56:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Sub captain is going to be in trouble either way. Either he crossed a line he shouldn't have and got spotted, or he was sent there but got spotted.

Getting Spotted = Bad For Subs

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2004-11-16 1:12:34 PM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2004-11-16 1:12:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 On Comment #4 LMAO, thanks.
For those surmising it was a french nuke, do you think they hang twelve mile tags?

Posted by Penguin 2004-11-16 1:14:59 PM|| 2004-11-16 1:14:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 It could have been the French testing Israeli anti-submarine defenses. France is not an friend or Israel or the US. They could have been probed on purpose.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-11-16 1:24:47 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-11-16 1:24:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Shipman, if I understand correctly, the GIUK line will be replaced. I would not expect the Straits line, or any in the Carib., etc. to be replaced. For smaller distances, it makes sense to have emplaced sensors.

Posted by Chuck Simmins 2004-11-16 1:42:45 PM|| [http://blog.simmins.org] 2004-11-16 1:42:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 NOT German

Posted by True German Ally 2004-11-16 3:21:50 PM|| 2004-11-16 3:21:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#24

This site has some very "in the know" posters, so could one or more of you educate me on what folks mean when they say that the sub was "testing Israeli defenses"? What's the point? Would any reasonable nation conduct such a "test" knowing that the COST of such a "test" could be the lives of the sub's crew?

Also, how could Israel "fail" such a test? How could the test itself be considered a "failure"?

The above are sincere questions--I'd appreciate anyones attempt to address them. THANKS

Posted by Crusader 2004-11-16 3:29:17 PM|| 2004-11-16 3:29:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 a big reason to test them is to train the subs crew. Things operate allot differently when entering territorial waters then transiting from pt A to pt B - The constant Cat-n-mouse game. You fight like you train.

Its not as dangerous as it sounds - a nation will never fire upon an unkown when there is no threat.

Classifying a sub is not that difficult for a well trained sonarman. They would know within minutes wether it was friend or suspected foe. Once they classified it as a NATO boat - they knew there was no reason to do anything other than escort "chase" it out. They probably got tonals off the electric generators, CHT "poop" grinders, reduction gears, and a blade count. Thats more than enough to classify it.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-11-16 3:55:23 PM|| 2004-11-16 3:55:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 PS - this stuff happens a lot more than you'd expect. This incident just happened to make it to the media.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-11-16 3:56:17 PM|| 2004-11-16 3:56:17 PM|| Front Page Top

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