Article

2011-11-03 Science & Technology

Rome, Sweet Rome: Could a Single Marine Unit Destroy the Roman Empire?

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by tipper 2011-11-03 07:10|| || Front Page|| [11128 views ] Top

#1 I'm pretty sure I could defeat a Roman legion with the molotov cocktail, a weapon I could easily manufacture in the Roman era.

Break up their formations with fire then kill them with archers, cavalry, etc.

Posted by phil_b 2011-11-03 08:01|| 2011-11-03 08:01|| Front Page Top

#2 Actually the Romans were familiar with "Molotov cocktails" (AKA Greek Fire) and had tactics for counteracting them. Instead of glass have used clay pots, but the effect was the same.

A MArine MEU would be invincible in the ancient world, though. In fact it would probably be overkill.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al 2011-11-03 08:37|| 2011-11-03 08:37|| Front Page Top

#3 reminds me of the winds or war movie from the 80s - a modern Navy carrier goes back to 1941 and gets ready to intercept the Japanese fleet on it's way to Pearl Harbor.

Posted by Broadhead6 2011-11-03 08:45|| 2011-11-03 08:45|| Front Page Top

#4 the movie was Final Countdown. Actually it was dull but the premise was cool. A better one is GI Samurai in which a Japanese unit goes back to the Samurai days.

Problem is resupply. The Marines would run out of bullets pretty quickly. They'd need to create alliances to really win in the long run. The tactics however, would be on the Marines side as they would have another thousand years of history to work from. Guerilla fighting, fighting squares with halberds or longbowmen. They could pick and choose and adapt to whatever worked.

Posted by rjschwarz 2011-11-03 08:51|| 2011-11-03 08:51|| Front Page Top

#5 The best WMD of course is for the Marines to 'introduce' themselves in the undesired population, as the Europeans did in the new world.

Posted by Skidmark 2011-11-03 09:11|| 2011-11-03 09:11|| Front Page Top

#6 I'm not sure of the timeline but perhaps the Carthaginians could have used some help.

Posted by Tyranysaurus Angeng1847 2011-11-03 09:51|| 2011-11-03 09:51|| Front Page Top

#7 Greek fire was something else, an antiship weapon.

Prior to the motor car there was little use for volatile distillates even though producing them is low tech.

Without petroleum, an alcohol, olive oil emulsion would make an adequate substitute.

Posted by phil_b 2011-11-03 10:13|| 2011-11-03 10:13|| Front Page Top

#8 Better to support Rome and become the Praetorian Guard. They usually chose the next emperor in some way shape or form.

Posted by Water Modem 2011-11-03 10:16|| 2011-11-03 10:16|| Front Page Top

#9 I don't think that Marines would destroy the Roman Empire.

They were actually the best government that Haiti ever had, and after Haiti, the Roman Empire would be a breeze to operate.

After securing Rome, proper, and taking charge over the legions, their first order of business would be to deploy some legions to fight off the Nubian invasion of Egypt. But after this was accomplished, they would go for the complete reordering and modernization of the Empire.

The hardest part would probably be teaching the Marines Latin. Though some parts would be easy (slightly NSFW).

They would also start a public education system, end slavery, create a prison system, create a written constitution and a full representative parliament, etc.

Posted by Anonymoose 2011-11-03 10:21|| 2011-11-03 10:21|| Front Page Top

#10 I read the story the guy wrote. Entertaining as a quick one-off.

However.

The MEU would be great until the logistics ran low. Then they're a bunch of buff, well-disciplined guys who have to learn how to use swords and javelins to survive.

You know, like legionnaires.

If I were the commander of this mythical MEU, I'd sure work to make a great first impression before all the beans, bullets and bombs were gone.

Posted by Steve White 2011-11-03 10:42|| 2011-11-03 10:42|| Front Page Top

#11 >They would also start a public education system

and then it would all start to goto rat-shit again.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2011-11-03 11:00|| 2011-11-03 11:00|| Front Page Top

#12

The MEU would be great until the logistics ran low.

This.

Where would the Marines get fuel? Bullets? Food? Medical supplies? Their on-hand supplies would eventually run out, and then they're actually poorly equipped.

And, honestly, I'm not all that sure the Romans would be phased by gunfire. Mowed-down? Sure, at first. But the reaction of "wow, those guys are better than Balearic slingers" would be followed by "spread out and CHARGE".

And eventually the Roman manpower would overwhelm them. They lost 60,000 men at Cannae -- one battle, one afternoon. Then fielded two more consular legions in a few months.

Posted by Rob Crawford 2011-11-03 11:09|| 2011-11-03 11:09|| Front Page Top

#13

Greek fire was something else, an antiship weapon.

ISTR Greek Fire was also used in defense of city walls.

Immaterial, anyway, because it was actually a very-late Roman development -- something so late it's usually called "Byzantine".

Posted by Rob Crawford 2011-11-03 11:11|| 2011-11-03 11:11|| Front Page Top

#14

I'm not sure of the timeline but perhaps the Carthaginians could have used some help.

Carthage is one of those mixed-bags of history. They had a lot of good points, including a maritime trade economy that would have been familiar to 17th century Brits and 18th century Americans.

But they were also child sacrificers.

(Weirdly, only one of the ancient sources -- and the least reliable, at that -- makes that accusation. But the archaeological record shows it was true.)

Posted by Rob Crawford 2011-11-03 11:14|| 2011-11-03 11:14|| Front Page Top

#15 No

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2011-11-03 11:31|| 2011-11-03 11:31|| Front Page Top

#16 The more I think about it, the more I come back to Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and Army of Darkness, and how one person armed with our modern knowledge would be. 2200 Marines is quite a knowledge base...electricity, gunpowder, distilling. Those vehicles out of gas are not useless, they could be stripped down for parts.

The Romans I think would have some advantages, such as walking everywhere their whole life ande familiarity with the lifestyle of the times (food, shelter, weather, etc), numbers (though only a small number of the Empire's military population would actually be in or near Rome there is the population of Rome).

I do not think you could destroy the Roman Empire by capturing or even razing Rome..the concept of Roman would be too great, likely really piss people off. Perhaps, as said, capture the government. Long term, imagine the Romans with even a 16th century technology tree, plus the knowledge of foresight of what the other major players would be up to at least initially. The dangerous part would be the mid term, wondering which major Roman families are on your side and which are a bit peeved the Marines took their turn at the helm.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-11-03 11:45|| 2011-11-03 11:45|| Front Page Top

#17 Where would the Marines get fuel?
Olive oil, ethanol. Make methanol and you've got biodiesel.

Bullets?
1 tank carries over 10,000 rounds. There are millions more in the ammo trucks. Not that you would need them. Run them over with armored vehicles. An armored Humvee at 40mph is an irresistible force to a bunch of spear carriers, let alone APCs and tanks.

Food?
Same place any field army of the time gets theirs.

Medical supplies?
How many casualties do you expect or you expecting to treat the Romans too?

They lost 60,000 men at Cannae -- one battle, one afternoon.
And Rome nearly lost it all then. 60,000 rounds is much less than the load out of a Marine infantry company.

Posted by Eohippus Phater7165 2011-11-03 11:49|| 2011-11-03 11:49|| Front Page Top

#18 The more I think about it, the more I come back to Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, and Army of Darkness, and how one person armed with our modern knowledge would be.

Yeah. My contention is that one modern man with a decent knowledge of chemistry, physics and history and good organizational skills can become the new Caesar.

Posted by Eohippus Phater7165 2011-11-03 11:53|| 2011-11-03 11:53|| Front Page Top

#19 Hannibal and Carthage at peak was a bit before this timeline, and he had the best chance of turning the Italian Pininsula against the Romans as there were still Celts and Etruscans who remembered what it was like before the Romans. At this time, perhaps not so much help from the locals.

Still, as a snapshot for a story or movie, very interesting if done right.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-11-03 11:56|| 2011-11-03 11:56|| Front Page Top

#20 Food: Hannibal raided grain facility/storage.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-11-03 12:01|| 2011-11-03 12:01|| Front Page Top

#21 The Marines wouldn't even have to take food and be bad neighbors. They could trade used Roman armor.

Posted by Eohippus Phater7165 2011-11-03 12:11|| 2011-11-03 12:11|| Front Page Top

#22 Whether Lake Trasimere or the Teutoburger Wald, if you catch the Romans out of formation and particularly in road march, they lose the advantage of their tactical system. It didn't take a modern MEU to do it. The problem was that much of Rome's opponents didn't have the organizational skills or small unit flexibility to exploit deficiencies and short comings.

Posted by Procopius2k 2011-11-03 12:52|| 2011-11-03 12:52|| Front Page Top

#23 I think Hernán Cortés proved that point 500 years ago in Mexico..

Yes they could, but only if they forged alliances with enemies of Rome. (Actually the Tlaxcaltecas did most of the fighting against the Aztecs.)

Alone, the Marines could certainly conquer Rome (the city) for a few days or weeks, but not keep it. Nor the whole Empire.

Posted by European Conservative 2011-11-03 15:05|| 2011-11-03 15:05|| Front Page Top

#24 So define "destroy". Good point about being hard to destroy the idea of Rome in its citizens.
But if you wanted to destroy the empire, you'd best be making it possible for its enemies and restive provinces to do the work. That means destroying the government in Rome.
A big problem would be intel. On the other hand, leaving all but, say, two tanks and taking the fuel saved, you could get to Rome before you had to run over more than one legion. The government wouldn't know you were coming and so they couldn't call in more legions. All you'd have would be the forces accidentally in your path. And if you were a Roman commander who'd never heard of anything amiss, watching a MEU motoring by with the guys waving, would you attack? Could you get your guys lined up before the last of the convoy was out of sight? Then what? Put some skinny guy on a horse and tell him to take this cockamamie message to Rome before these whatchamacallits got there. Every time the MEU passed a Roman post station or unit, it would be the first time any of the locals had seen such a thing. Every one would put a skinny guy on a horse and tell him to beat the convoy to Rome and pinkyswear it's true. 'course, the jarheads would get there first, anyway.
The MEU doesn't have to waste a lot of rounds destroying a legion. They start at, say, six hundred yards with snipers taking out the officers and centurions. Then maybe a thousand rounds at the part of the unit that's on the road, and roll. Eewww.
But, having destroyed Rome's government, then what?
Best bet would be to take some good farmland, do a Grantville 1632, in a sense, and make themselves unconquerable, even after the modern stuff wore out. Which, if all they did was run off interlopers, legions or bandits, wouldn't take up as much resources. Marines are legendarily, in their own minds, irresistable to beautiful women, so there'd be a bunch of junior jarheads running around pretty quick. As long as they minded their own biz, they wouldn't be much of a bone in Rome's throat, except for all the slaves wanting to get away to the new Land of The Free. Don't know if Rome could afford that.

Posted by Richard Aubrey 2011-11-03 18:10|| 2011-11-03 18:10|| Front Page Top

#25 The amusing part would be to see how the average Marine battalion comander would go about trying to convince a "vendor" to sell him all his stock of olive oil on credit:
.
(Nervous young boy barely speaking middle English): My father agrees to the per unit price, but wants to know how you intend to transport the goods. He doesn't have much.

Colonel Jessup: Tell your father we have transport we call tankers, so we can take delivery here.
(NYBBSME translates. The old man seems pleased and then says something to the kid)
NYBBSME: My father wants to know how you intend to pay for your purchase.
Colonel Jessup (nervously): Well, we don't have gold or cash, but we can provide your father with documents he can use to make a claim with our government for compensation.
(Old man seems a bit put off after hearing the translation)
NYBBSME: You have no money.
Colonel Jessup: We have no money.
NYBBSME: All this equipment and you didn't think of bringing along any gold.
Colonel Jessup: Not like we expected to be transported back almost 2000 years.
NYBBSME: My father wants to know how he is expected to pay for his help and for next years crop, if you have taken all his product?
Colonel Jessup: We can help him with that.
NYBBSME: How?
Colonel Jessup: we can provide labor and other means to help him.
NYBBSME: You're olive grovers?
Colonel Jessup: No, but a number of my people have worked on farms before.
NYBBSME: Free labor.
Colonel Jessup: If that is what it takes, yes.

Posted by badanov 2011-11-03 18:55|| http://www.freefirezone.org 2011-11-03 18:55|| Front Page Top

#26 Best idea. Head to a port. Build a ship. Sail for America.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2011-11-03 19:33|| 2011-11-03 19:33|| Front Page Top

#27 Couple thoughts out of my comfortable knowledge:

Would the roads of the time support the MEU vehicles?

Bridges?

How much of a river could be forded?

I seem to remember the average size of the Roman soldier as something like 5'6" and 150 lbs, do not have the time to confirm or deny that. These Marines would appear huge then, the Sons of Jupiter using the Chariots of Mars. Interesting to see what happens when their leaders just fall over shot from long range marksman fire, hit before sound.

Posted by swksvolFF 2011-11-03 19:34|| 2011-11-03 19:34|| Front Page Top

#28 But if you wanted to destroy the empire, you'd best be making it possible for its enemies and restive provinces to do the work.

Simple things, like introducing the stirrup for the horse cultures on the borders.

Posted by Procopius2k 2011-11-03 19:44|| 2011-11-03 19:44|| Front Page Top

#29 Gentlemen, ir's been wxplored thoroughly in,the book 1632,and it's sequel 1633 (Science Fiction) go to Baen Books http://www.baen.com/library/books.asp
If you wish to read these.

Jim

Posted by Redneck Jim 2011-11-03 20:29|| 2011-11-03 20:29|| Front Page Top

#30 I suspect most tanks (not the Abrahms) run on diesel and thus could probably run on olive oil. If you could keep the engines running you could always secure ballista and other captured weapons to the exterior for use long after your ammo ran dry.

I think a useful ability would be to play prophet and wizards using your knowledge of history and science. Your reputation might do far more than your actual fighting talents.

Posted by rjschwarz 2011-11-03 21:35|| 2011-11-03 21:35|| Front Page Top

#31 The Roman roads lasted a couple of thousand years. Keep in mind that tactical vehicles are designed for low ground pressure. And they can go over cleared ground without roads.
It's possible the legionaries were 5'6", but I ran into a military reenactor who said that the French were having trouble at the end of the eighteenth century getting guys to exceed their minimum 4'10". When I was in, the LBE harness was designed for the average soldier being presumed to be 5'8". Like short suspenders. There were a couple of bigger ones in a hundred, the captain getting one.
And 5'6" 150 is pretty burly. Most Europeans who did hard work in those days were wiry, on account of what they did was not maxing out their musculature--you always try to figure out a way to make that unnecessary--but repetitive. I think it would be even a bigger difference.
Bridges would be the problem, although most tactical vehicles are designed for at least some fording capability and trench-crossing capability.
You know, if you had to abandon your transport, you could always use the wheels and make man-towed wagons with good bearings and low ground-pressure tires.
Put enough men on the ropes and you can trot right along with a substantial portion of your ammo.
The Romans walked, carrying their equipment, including encampment material. See "Marius' Mules". The MEU doesn't need to build a palisade at night. They shoot anybody sneaking up.
Route march when I was in was supposedly twenty miles a day carrying one third of your body weight. The guys are better than that now, so they could outmarch the legionaries.
I think setting up for themselves somewhere on the edge of the Empire, being by default a defense for that section, would allow them to prosper and cause the Romans to leave them alone. Best foederati the Empire ever had.

Posted by raubrey@sbcglobal.net 2011-11-03 22:03|| 2011-11-03 22:03|| Front Page Top

#32 No. The Romans were brilliant, ruthless, and harsh. They would figure out a way to even the odds... especially after getting a good, hard look at what the Marines were using.

Posted by Secret Master 2011-11-03 22:09|| 2011-11-03 22:09|| Front Page Top

#33 Interesting to see what happens when their leaders just fall over shot from long range marksman fire, hit before sound.

It seems to me that artillery spotters would be raining ordnance on the Roman formations before the Marines were even visible to the Romans.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2011-11-03 22:34|| 2011-11-03 22:34|| Front Page Top

#34 For reasons of fuel economy, I would not expect the Marines to use their air elements much. They could destroy Roman encampments from hundreds of miles away, but it would be pointless - the beauty of waiting until they are a dozen miles away is that they save fuel, and are in a position to slaughter them as they retreat or take prisoners to use as menial labor and loot the encampment for useful things.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2011-11-03 22:52|| 2011-11-03 22:52|| Front Page Top

#35 You know, if you had to abandon your transport, you could always use the wheels and make man-towed wagons with good bearings and low ground-pressure tires...See "Marius' Mules"

The Romans never perfected harnessing for draft animals. That was a latter development, let alone ball bearings. It's called lift.

Also, the formula for gunpowder isn't a secret. While it may not be 'modern' quality their gun/cannon tubes will surpass anything that passes for a barrel for a thousand years in handling pressures. Canister can be fabricated out of contemporary metals. Basic shop 101.

Posted by Procopius2k 2011-11-03 23:04|| 2011-11-03 23:04|| Front Page Top

#36 Lets not forget sturrups - they were invented in the middle ages as I recall. I think that was the beginning of a calvary.

Posted by CrazyFool 2011-11-03 23:06|| 2011-11-03 23:06|| Front Page Top

#37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cataphract

There is no way the Marine unit can win if doesn't start to get childrens,teenagers, women and start to make babies . In very short time diseases and accidents will take care of half unit.

Posted by Blackbeard Henbane9927 2011-11-03 23:47|| 2011-11-03 23:47|| Front Page Top

23:47 Blackbeard Henbane9927
23:37 trailing wife
23:07 SteveS
23:06 CrazyFool
23:04 Procopius2k
22:52 Zhang Fei
22:40 trailing wife
22:38 Dale
22:34 Zhang Fei
22:31 Dale
22:09 Secret Master
22:03 raubrey@sbcglobal.net
21:55 Dogsbody
21:47 trailing wife
21:47 CrazyFool
21:42 Dale
21:35 rjschwarz
21:29 Dale
21:23 rjschwarz
21:22 Dale
21:21 Dale
21:13 Alaska Paul
21:12 Alaska Paul
21:06 trailing wife