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2006-10-27 Home Front: Politix
Bombshell: Allen Exposes Webb's lurid sex novels
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Posted by Unereting Slaviling9175 2006-10-27 01:37|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 I've read most of Mr. Webb's novels, though not Lost Soldiers. I thought Fields of Fire and A Country Such as This were fine books; the latter had a couple of strong women leads.

I think this is a big mistake for Allen though he probably won't pay a price for it. There's a name for a person who believes that an author must share the beliefs of the characters in his novels -- that proper name is idiot.
Posted by Steve White">Steve White  2006-10-27 09:53||   2006-10-27 09:53|| Front Page Top

#2 I still dont like Webb.

It would help if he didnt have Gens Hoare and Zinni mentioned prominently in his pamphlets. This whole ex-Reaganite tough guy whos turned Dem cause of the eevil neocons (TM) thing just creeps me out. Add to the born fighting Jacksonian stuff, the anti free trade stuff, and the rather odd cartoon about Webbs Jewish primary opponent.

OTOH, y'all can imagine my thoughts on Sen Allen.


Too bad I cant mark "none of the above"
Posted by liberalhawk 2006-10-27 10:39||   2006-10-27 10:39|| Front Page Top

#3 One side is pretty sick, there other's slick.

Is Patrick Henry a candidate?
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2006-10-27 11:19||   2006-10-27 11:19|| Front Page Top

#4 About a year ago, the left blogosphere was all worked up about supposedly creepy sex scenes* in Scooter Libby's novel. Being the high-minded, fair, objective, principled, even-handed crowd they are, I expect to see them condemn Webb's books and withdraw their support.

[crickets]

The condemnations should be starting . . . any . . . minute . . . now.

[crickets]

Kos? Atrios? You guys there?

[crickets]

Hello? Anybody home?

*-I've not read Libby's book, so I've no idea if the description is accurate. In the spirit of charity, let's presume for purposes of discussion that it is.
Posted by Mike 2006-10-27 11:26||   2006-10-27 11:26|| Front Page Top

#5 So Allen's stopped talking about the issues and is talking about how Webb wrote a novel with creepy scenes. Can someone explain to me how this is supposed to be a good thing?
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2006-10-27 11:39||   2006-10-27 11:39|| Front Page Top

#6 So Fields of Fire and A Sense of Honor were lurid sex novels?
Wished I'da known when I read them.
You're reaching there, George...
Posted by tu3031 2006-10-27 11:53||   2006-10-27 11:53|| Front Page Top

#7 It would help if he didnt have Gens Hoare and Zinni mentioned prominently in his pamphlets. This whole ex-Reaganite tough guy whos turned Dem cause of the eevil neocons (TM) thing just creeps me out. Add to the born fighting Jacksonian stuff, the anti free trade stuff, and the rather odd cartoon about Webbs Jewish primary opponent.

It's all about having a tantrum and pretending that makes you tough and proves you care more than everyone else, rather than actually doing what needs to be done.

Did you catch what I was saying about Chechnya in the threads earlier this week?
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2006-10-27 11:59||   2006-10-27 11:59|| Front Page Top

#8 Abdominal, the whole point is that in order to write such crap, he first thinks such thoughts.
Webb is one sick individual. We have Barney Frank and Mc Dermitt, and Murtha, do we need another off the wall boner in DC ?
Posted by wxjames 2006-10-27 12:17||   2006-10-27 12:17|| Front Page Top

#9 This is why we get politicians that are so flawed. Very few "normal" Americans will consent to put themselves through the grinder like this for political office.

/haven't read the books (or the excerpts)
/tend to think Allen is overreaching
/is it 'lection day yet? Ima getting tired of this cr*p
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2006-10-27 12:23||   2006-10-27 12:23|| Front Page Top

#10 The sex is gratuitous and non-standard ... a father fellating his young son, for instance.

Agreed on being tired of the runup to the election.
Posted by lotp 2006-10-27 12:35||   2006-10-27 12:35|| Front Page Top

#11 Steve's comment about the characters' conduct is not my view was an appropriate response by Webb. Webb, however, apparently failed to properly understand this point:

"It's not a sexual act," Webb told Plotkin regarding the "Lost Soldiers" excerpt. "I actually saw this happen in a slum in Bangkok when I was there as a journalist."

Webb's response was illogical: First, he failed to understand just because someone lives in a different country does not mean that they cannot understand what they are doing. The genitals are the same for all human beings, and the use of the genitals is pretty much understood by everyone who has made it to adulthood. His response is actually racist.

Second, by trying to pass the problem off to an actual incident -- without understanding the moral content of the incident -- Webb failed to create the proper distance between himself and the character. Webb stated that the event described in his novel had no moral content -- or at least not the moral content that any sane human being would understand.

Other comments made by Webb fall into similar traps. Webb has taken a defensible position and made it a potential disastor.

Posted by Kalchas 2006-10-27 12:36||   2006-10-27 12:36|| Front Page Top

#12 On the comment by Kalchas - the world is a strange place, and a lot of things that disgust or repel us are normal elsewhere. I also have seen a lot of things in Asia that would disgust the average American.

I can see that repeating this stuff may be in questionable taste for an entertainment aimed at a US audience, but on the other hand if part of the purpose is education these things should not be left out. This is the way the world is, it must be acknowledged and not hidden, or one may get some mistaken notions. A lot of liberal thinking about human nature comes from this naivete I think.

The nature of many Muslim societies for instance, cannot be explained without the rather bizarre ideas about sex coming into play, including the pervasive homosexuality.
Posted by buwaya 2006-10-27 12:55||   2006-10-27 12:55|| Front Page Top

#13 I am aware that a character's views are not the author's. It is equally wrong however to assume that the author is entirely divorced from those views. The context of narrative is critical in determining just how far this relationship goes. Is the narrator omniscient or is the narrator's perception limited to that of the point-of-view character? If the latter, what is the outcome of that character's own moral conflicts, if any? To what extent does the author establish distance between himself and a particular character?
It is obviously not true that an author's moral state must be reflected in his characters, but it can be.

It is obvious, for example, that the writers of MASH (the tv show, not the book) shared the views of the Hawkeye Pierce character. It is just as obvious (I hope) that I do not share the views of the terrorists and serial killers about whom I sometimes write. Astute readers know the difference but it is an author's responsibility to ensure that they have a chance to know the difference.

I would not personally judge Webb's own relationship with these portrayals without reading the books in their entirety, but he must have one or he has abrogated any pretense of creative responsibility.

I really think this is a response to the "macaca" uproar. The Dems made the rules here, now they are hoist by their own petard.
Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2006-10-27 13:25||   2006-10-27 13:25|| Front Page Top

#14 Allen has now stooped to Dem tactics. Stop talking about why he's better qualified to be in the Senate than Webb, and focus on lurid personal attacks. I'm no fan of Webb, but this smacks of desperation.
Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-10-27 13:31||   2006-10-27 13:31|| Front Page Top

#15 The naked boy ran happily toward him from the little plot of dirt. The man grabbed his young son in his arms, turned him upside down, and put the boy's penis in his mouth.
Posted by anon 2006-10-27 13:42||   2006-10-27 13:42|| Front Page Top

#16 Its just a book!
Its not like it is a SpacerX novel or a Nick Scipio novel let alone a tome from ASSTR.ORG
Posted by 3dc 2006-10-27 13:52||   2006-10-27 13:52|| Front Page Top

#17 In response to Buwaya-- the world is a strange place with many customs which would be odd by my way of thinking. However, that does not mean that certain things are not consistent and cross-cultural. Certain things are wrong, irrespective of culture. To ignore something with "That's their culture" may be a popular tactic (I'm not accusing you of such a thing), but that does not make it right. Do we forgive the Hitler, or Stalin or Pol Pot with that's just how Nazi's, Communists, et cerata, are?

I would put Webb's description of the boy in the novel in the same category. Webb's inability to see that as a moral wrong is disturbing. The problem does not necessarily lie in the novel but in his understanding of the character's conduct in the novel.

Atomic's comments are appropriate.





Posted by Kalchas 2006-10-27 13:53||   2006-10-27 13:53|| Front Page Top

#18 When describing a foreign culture it is appropriate and necessary to describe even the ugly. It is not necessary to excuse the Aztecs their cannibalism to write a novel about them.

This serves to explain what the protagonist needs to deal with, cultures that are fundamentally disturbed. Webbs description by the way is of a common way to calm children in many countries. These places have problems of a scope and depth that may be difficult to otherwise imagine, and the norms there are alien.

It prevents the more common delusions that all cultures are equal in value, and that people are basically the same under the skin, so we can all just "get along" if we try.
Posted by buwaya 2006-10-27 14:32||   2006-10-27 14:32|| Front Page Top

#19 Webb is running for a public office. If he wants to be an author and write steamy sex scenes fine. We can all agree or disagree about whether or not the scenes are lurid, degrading, or just art. But the point is - that it is up to each individual to decide.

He wrote it. He's responsible for it. If my 80 year old mother in law thinks it is lurid and gross and she doesn't want to vote for a man like that - then why do you get to decide for her that it is just art?

I don't really have a problem with the truth being out there. Each person reading the passages can decide for themselves. To say that it is dirty tricks to make public passages that he wrote in a book seems just plain silly to me.
Posted by anon 2006-10-27 15:50||   2006-10-27 15:50|| Front Page Top

#20 I think its odd to hold an author accountable due to what a character might do in a fictional novel. Character in novels often do pretty foul things to show they are pervs or villians or disturbed.

Does anyone think Thomas Harris' neighbors worry when he comes home from the grocery story with Fava beans and a nice ciante?
Posted by rjschwarz 2006-10-27 16:41||   2006-10-27 16:41|| Front Page Top

#21 I guess we should all be grateful that Bret Easton Ellis (American Psycho) isn't running for office...being a writer muself, I'm agreeing with rjschwarz.
And didn't we have this exact same ruckus last week in Texas state politic, where one of the candidates had written a romance novel? Her opponent came all freaking unglued about the nerve of her, and writing about s-e-x and all, and made it a campaign issue. So far, all that's come of it is that he has pissed off all the ladies who like romance novels, and possibly driven them to vote for anyone other than him.
I kinda think this will rebound against Allen in the same way.
Posted by Sgt. Mom 2006-10-27 17:00|| www.sgtryker.com]">[www.sgtryker.com]  2006-10-27 17:00|| Front Page Top

#22 I think its odd to hold an author accountable due to what a character might do in a fictional novel. Character in novels often do pretty foul things to show they are pervs or villians or disturbed.

I'm not making a judgement as to whether this was a good idea or a bad idea for the Allen campaign to do this. My own personal opinion is that it will give the hyperventilators something to hyperventilate over when Allen had the momentum on issues.

I'm just saying that it's public information, he's a public figure. If his campaign believes that many people will find it offensive - it's not a "dirty trick" - it is a decision on what they think will play with their voters whose morality may differ from our own.
Posted by anon 2006-10-27 17:13||   2006-10-27 17:13|| Front Page Top

#23 Isn't this the classic, "Mr. Webb Goes to Washington"?
Posted by Captain America 2006-10-27 17:15||   2006-10-27 17:15|| Front Page Top

#24 #15 The naked boy ran happily toward him from the little plot of dirt. The man grabbed his young son in his arms, turned him upside down, and put the boy's penis in his mouth.

Was this from a book or was it a Foley dream sequence? Seems if Foley can be run out of congress for hitting on pages then Webb's qualifications can be considered in the light of his imagining it. What did this really add to the book?

And if he is profiting from pandering to the deviances found elswhere in the world, I think that is also legitimate fodder for the election.

What's Webb's response anyway (besides having lackeys say Allen is hitting low blows)? Is he proud of it? Was it carefully crafted so his books would appeal to the NAMBLA members?

Posted by DoDo 2006-10-27 17:37||   2006-10-27 17:37|| Front Page Top

#25 I'll have my 2cents worth on this.

I've recently written some fiction set in Bangkok, a city I am familiar with.

A fiction author includes details that convey a sense of the place where a scene is set. Those details are of necessity the impressions the author him/herself has of a place. That is the author writes about they themselves find memorable and that characterize a place. In my case, that includes the habits of taxi drivers and how sidewalks are crowded with people, vendors and other obstructions.

I can only conclude from these excerts that Webb finds the sexual events memorable and characteristic of a place, or alternatively he is pandering to an audience.

I am well aware of what goes on in Nana Plaza, but for me it doesn't characterize Bangkok.

In my case, it included t
Posted by phil_b 2006-10-27 19:34||   2006-10-27 19:34|| Front Page Top

#26 Ignore the last line. Editing glitch.
Posted by phil_b 2006-10-27 19:36||   2006-10-27 19:36|| Front Page Top

#27 Hmmm. "Top" blogger Mike Rogers should be sniffing around closer to home.
Posted by ed 2006-10-27 21:27||   2006-10-27 21:27|| Front Page Top

#28 well, Phil B, all's well unless you run a dirty campaign for US Senator. Webb's dirt splashed back - minimally relevant, but so is Macaca
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2006-10-27 21:28||   2006-10-27 21:28|| Front Page Top

#29 http://www.webbagainstwomen.com/default.aspx

How is it that this creep has gotten so far? Some of the complaints about Webb at this sight are cheezy mountains out of molehills - however there seems to be a trend here that I think women should take note of.

All of you women, including Sgt. Mom, might want to take a look at some of his real comments and wonder if those fantasies don't represent threads in an overall pattern that isn't particularly flattering towards women and ask yourself if you want this guy in charge.
Posted by Clkethel OHlkdj 2006-10-27 21:36||   2006-10-27 21:36|| Front Page Top

#30 Interesting site, Clkethel OHlkdj. I would be interested in the comments of those Rantburg women who've experience with the Armed Forces. But at first glance it sure looks like Mr. Webb may be about to be swiftboated.
Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-27 22:52||   2006-10-27 22:52|| Front Page Top

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