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2004-10-27 Home Front: Politix
Vatican finds a problem with Kerry
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Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-10-27 4:54:32 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Too little too late -- only one Sunday and All Saints Day to go.
Posted by Tom 2004-10-27 8:10:41 AM||   2004-10-27 8:10:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 The Roman Catholic church should fix it's own problems (SEX SCANDAL et al), and keep it's pompous nose out of American polirics.
Posted by Shaiter Sputle8634 2004-10-27 8:33:21 AM||   2004-10-27 8:33:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 The Pope ought to be told he can run his church any way he wants to, but his interference in this election is no more welcome than that of al G or el-Baradei. The Pope denying sacraments to make the American President dance to his tune was what Kennedy had to fight against. These jerks should stay on their own side of the Grennwich Meridian.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 8:34:15 AM||   2004-10-27 8:34:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 I disagree with you. If you wish to be Catholic, then you follow the doctrine [not orders] of the church otherwise you are a Protestant. Classic example of wanting the tag of something, but acting in a different manner. However, that behavior pattern so fits the Senator.
Posted by Don 2004-10-27 8:39:55 AM||   2004-10-27 8:39:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 As I said, the Pope can run his church any way he wants. But Kerry's had this position for the last 20 years. Where's the Pope been? Why is Kerry the only Catholic legislator getting this treatment now? The Pope is trying to influence the election and that's wrong.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 8:44:33 AM||   2004-10-27 8:44:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 The problem is not interference in an election. The problem is Kerry cloaking himself in yet another lie every Sunday and the church is too wimpy to enforce its own rules. The other problem is that Kerry knows he has excommunicated himself and yet he still takes communion. Those of you who are protestants can contemplate how you'd feel if Kerry came to your church and spit on the altar every Sunday. Those of you who are neither can contemplate how you'd feel if Kerry came to your house and peed on the front door every Sunday.
Posted by Tom 2004-10-27 8:47:32 AM||   2004-10-27 8:47:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 The whole question of excommunication of Kerry was not surfaced by the Church, but the press (Earlier Friday (4-23-04), Cardinal Francis Arinze (search) would not comment on whether it was right to give Communion to Kerry, who is Catholic. Arinze spoke to reporters while issuing a Vatican directive, commissioned by Pope John Paul II, that clamps down on liturgical abuses in Mass. The 71-page document does not address the question of pro-choice politicians, an issue reporters raised with the cardinal.

But once the question was asked, again and again by the press, a position by the Church had to be taken.

I agree that religion should not enter into the discussion. If Kerry choses to excommunicate himself from the Church, that's between him and his God.
Posted by RN  2004-10-27 8:49:00 AM||   2004-10-27 8:49:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 These two articles ought to be on Page 2.
Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-10-27 8:53:48 AM||   2004-10-27 8:53:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 They could not comment until after the election just like CBS wil not be able to complete their investigation into Rathergate till after the election.

If Catholics are not going to treat the whole class of Catholic legislators, attorneys and doctors involved in the abortion business the same, then they are going to be open to charges of hypocrisy and trying to influence the election.

As a protestant, I suspect most of the Catholics watching Kerry "spit on the altar every Sunday" use birth control. What does that make them in the Vatican's eyes?

Foreigners out of our elections. Tax-exempt organizations our of our elections.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 9:01:53 AM||   2004-10-27 9:01:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Mike's full of #2.
Posted by Robert Crawford  2004-10-27 9:31:43 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/]  2004-10-27 9:31:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Tastefully said.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 9:39:46 AM||   2004-10-27 9:39:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 If Kerry choses to excommunicate himself from the Church, that's between him and his God.

I agree with your sentiment but Kerry's actions regarding his religion merit examination as (yet another) character issue. Kerry persists in holding himself forth as a Catholic yet has apparently managed through his actions to excommunicate himself from his church. The fact that he continues to cynically and hypocritically profess a faith whose ideals he does not share is a worthy issue for voters to ponder in assessing his credentials to hold the highest office in our nation. For the record I'm neither Catholic nor even particularly religious.
Posted by AzCat 2004-10-27 9:49:15 AM||   2004-10-27 9:49:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 If you wish to be Catholic, then you follow the doctrine [not orders] of the church otherwise you are a Protestant.

If you want to follow the doctrine in your personal affairs, that's fine. But don't enforce doctrine on the rest of us that aren't Catholic. If that's a problem for you, then we'll simply have to refuse to elect Catholics. I'm not a Kerry supporter, but I've disagreed with how the Catholic church has behaved during the campaign. They need to be smacked down HARD for this sh*t.
Posted by BH 2004-10-27 10:07:07 AM||   2004-10-27 10:07:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 On a lighter note.

Hey BH...it's OK to say SHIT. Please read on:

SHIPPING MANURE

Exciting Historical information you need to know about shipping Manure:

In the 16th and 17th centuries, everything had to be transported by ship. It was also before commercial fertilizer's invention, so large shipments of manure were common. It was shipped dry, because in dry form it weighed a lot less than when wet, but once water (at sea) hit it, it not only became heavier, but the process of fermentation began again, of which a by-product is methane gas. As the stuff was stored below decks in bundles you can see what could (and did) happen. Methane began to build up below decks and
the first time someone came below at night with a lantern, BOOOOM!

Several ships were destroyed in this manner before it was determined just what was happening. After that, the bundles of manure were always
stamped with the term "Ship High In Transit" on them which meant for the sailors to stow it high enough off the lower decks so that any water that came into the hold would not touch this volatile cargo and start the production of methane. Thus evolved the term "S.H.I.T," ("Ship High In Transit) which has come down through the centuries and is in use to this very day.
Posted by RN  2004-10-27 10:19:39 AM||   2004-10-27 10:19:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 BH - I totally disagree. The Catholic church is and should be left free to do as it pleases. If that damages the chances of Catholic candidates so be it, that's an issue for the church to consider. John Kerry is likewise free to put a stop to their interference with his Presidential bid any time he chooses. He need do no more than issue a statement formally severing his affiliation with the Catholic church and stating his regreat and his reasons for doing so.
Posted by AzCat 2004-10-27 10:19:56 AM||   2004-10-27 10:19:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 BH - I totally agree. Ain't this a great country?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 10:29:00 AM||   2004-10-27 10:29:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 BH, smacked down for what shit? How is the Catholic Church enforcing its doctrine on those that aren't Catholic?
This issue is not new; it's been around for at least the twenty years that I've been aware of it. The point is that Kerry claims to be catholic and publicly takes a position that is counter to church doctrine. The church is then forced to call John Kerry the catholic to the carpet and refuse him participation in the Eucharistic Meal until such time as he repents his support of the issues that run counter to Church doctrine. To not do so would be a disservice to John Kerry the catholic. If you think that this is meddling on the part of the Pope that is your perception.
If John Kerry were to renounce his Catholic faith this would be a non issue.
Posted by domingo 2004-10-27 10:32:02 AM||   2004-10-27 10:32:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 It is a great country! I never thought I'd see the day when the Evangelicals and Catholics agreed on anything.
Posted by John Q. Citizen 2004-10-27 10:44:52 AM||   2004-10-27 10:44:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Its the "Catholic" church--there's nothing wrong with Catholics and the Catholic heigharchy insisting upon CATHOLIC doctrine being followed.

I'm sorry that enforcing CATHOLIC beliefs might interfere with Mr. Kerry's charade of being one, but Mr. Kerry is the one that chose to play-act. The Catholic church has every right to enforce its rules.
Posted by Crusader 2004-10-27 4:06:28 PM||   2004-10-27 4:06:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 And other Americans have every right to vote against Catholics on the basis that they take orders from Rome.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 4:20:33 PM||   2004-10-27 4:20:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 As Americans, we can vote any way we choose and can be influenced by anything we wish to allow ourselves to be influenced by.

And the Catholic church can remind the American church heigharchy of its core values.
Posted by Crusader 2004-10-27 4:24:39 PM||   2004-10-27 4:24:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 domingo: This issue has been around for a long time, but the Catholic Church didn't take Sen. JoKe to task until he started running for president. Where were they during his Senate career? For that matter if this is merely a case of enforcing doctrine instead of an effort to change national policy then why only target the presidential candidate? Does the CC keep tabs on Catholic journalists to make sure their opinions follow church doctrine? Troll weblogs for Catholics posting dissenting views?

The CC is trying to 1) force Kerry to toe the party line; or 2) dissuade Catholic voters from supporting him. In the first case, success depends on whether or not Kerry's Catholicism is, as Crusader says, a charade. But either way, it is interference. If this behavior on the part of the Church is acceptable to Catholics, then the solution for those of us who reject foreign meddling is to never vote for Catholic candidates.
Posted by BH 2004-10-27 4:26:56 PM||   2004-10-27 4:26:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Remember, remember the fifth of November ,
Gunpowder Treason and Plot.
I see no reason why Gunpowder Treason
should ever be forgot.

The good old days, eh Crusader?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 4:30:51 PM||   2004-10-27 4:30:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 Lighten up, Mrs. D. It's not about Catholics "taking orders from Rome". It's about whether or not you should represent yourself as a Catholic and take communion if you don't walk the walk and you don't talk the talk.
Posted by Tom 2004-10-27 4:34:10 PM||   2004-10-27 4:34:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 BH, consider if it were a secular organization.

For example, what if he were a member of the NRA and repeatedly voted for gun confiscation. Would it be OK for the NRA to say "Your membership is not welcome. We are advising our members not to support you, and we are not going to give you membership benefits?"

Or if he were a member of PETA and hunted geese. Could they say "he is not one of us, and our members shouldn't support him, and we are going to deny him membership benefits?"

Or perhaps he was claiming the support of veterans, while saying that they had raped and murdered civilians as a matter of policy. Would it be OK for a bunch of former POWs to say that veterans shouldn't support him? Um, that is, would it be OK for the VFW to deny him membership?
Posted by jackal  2004-10-27 4:37:28 PM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]  2004-10-27 4:37:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Tom nailed it--nicely done.

Nobody how important you and I might believe the election to be (and believe me, I think its REALLY important), the Catholic church is entitled to believe that its ETERNAL doctrines are important too.
Posted by Crusader 2004-10-27 4:37:47 PM||   2004-10-27 4:37:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Tom,

It is about Rome trying to give orders to American politicians to tow the line. They should knock it off. This is nothing but foreign interference in an American election.

Americans can have the discussion you are suggesting without Rome ever saying a thing.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 4:41:14 PM||   2004-10-27 4:41:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Please take it easy, Mrs. D. The Church can attempt to enforce its teachings upon its professing members. If the person refuses, then he is not Catholic. It is a character issue. A "faith" that does not inform one's actions is no faith at all. If voters do not like Catholic beliefs, they should not vote for Catholic candidates.
Posted by SR71 2004-10-27 4:41:14 PM||   2004-10-27 4:41:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 jackal, I would think that one's religious beliefs play a larger part in their life than the NRA or PETA or VFW.
Posted by BH 2004-10-27 4:44:05 PM||   2004-10-27 4:44:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 I agree they can do whatever they want to do to their members. But when the only member they choose to do something to is someone running for President and they do it the week before the election I think it is dumb politics and will be interpreted as an attempt by Rome to impose its will on the U. S. and that's a bad idea.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 4:45:05 PM||   2004-10-27 4:45:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I am always amazed at the way the emotion ramps up from seemingly reasonable people when the Catholic Church is involved. The mouth frothing is unbecoming.

Up the long ladder
and down the short rope,
To Hell with King Billy
and God bless the Pope.

Posted by Sgt.D.T. 2004-10-27 4:45:40 PM||   2004-10-27 4:45:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 BH, you are full of shit. You think the Vatican should stop promoting Catholic values every time there's an election coming up? You won't vote for a Catholic candidate if that candidate happens to share common values with the Vatican? What if they happen to agree with your values too? You think freedom of religion means that our lawmakers shouldn't pass any laws that make value judgements or moral judgements? I've seen trolls that are less nonsensical and paranoid than you are. Grow up.
Posted by Tom 2004-10-27 4:46:36 PM||   2004-10-27 4:46:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Gee, that's almost as convincing as the old saw about POSH being an acronym for "Port Outbound Starboard Home".
Posted by mojo  2004-10-27 4:50:05 PM||   2004-10-27 4:50:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 You think the Vatican should stop promoting Catholic values every time there's an election coming up?

No, Tom. I'm saying that they weren't promoting their values until the election came up and one of their own was running. Fucking read the post before you start whining about it.
Posted by BH 2004-10-27 4:52:14 PM||   2004-10-27 4:52:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 BH
Most Catholics aren't in national debates espousing there catholicity and at the same time doctrine that runs counter to Catholic teachings. I said before this issue is not new; don't blame the Church for this media created dust up. As far Rome giving orders to American politicians, give me a break! That sounds like the shrieking of a left wing harpy. Exactly what orders has Rome delivered to Mr. Kerry? I sense an ulterior motive to the Church bashing.
Posted by domingo 2004-10-27 5:11:18 PM||   2004-10-27 5:11:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 domingo:
I sense an ulterior motive to the Church bashing.

You sense wrong. I'm just sick and tired of al-Guardian, CBS, George Soros, and, yes, the Catholic Church, trying to manipulate this election to their liking. As for the "Orders from Rome", that wasn't my post so don't put words in my mouth. I don't care if it's "Orders from Hoboken", it's still a strongarm tactic. It could have been handled in a quiet manner between JoKe and the Church. And it could have been held at any other time.
Posted by BH 2004-10-27 5:26:28 PM||   2004-10-27 5:26:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 BH: Truly, I'm not attempting to piss you off. But how could it "have been held at any other time" when Kerry himself keeps insisting on bringing up "I'm a Catholic, but..." and following up the "but" with anti-Catholic doctrine?

No offense, but if Kerry didn't keep trying to get BONUS POINTS off of his (alleged) religious beliefs, I don't think the Catholic Church would feel obliged to *correct* his "teachings" on these matters.
Posted by Crusader 2004-10-27 5:38:12 PM||   2004-10-27 5:38:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 But how could it "have been held at any other time" when Kerry himself keeps insisting on bringing up "I'm a Catholic, but..." and following up the "but" with anti-Catholic doctrine?

Yeah, I see your point. I'm not trying to offend anybody here either. Just getting a bit touchy about any hint of shenanigans. I can't wait until this election is over.
Posted by BH 2004-10-27 5:44:37 PM||   2004-10-27 5:44:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 He's done it in every election for the last 20+ years. Why pick on him this time?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 5:44:42 PM||   2004-10-27 5:44:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 BH I agree about the election over and I got hot and apologize if I've offended anyone.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 5:45:52 PM||   2004-10-27 5:45:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Apology accepted, but it is dissapointing to see how a very nasty anti-Catholic streak runs just beneath the surface. You must be appalled that they let those Papists run for office at all!
Posted by Sgt.D.T. 2004-10-27 5:53:17 PM||   2004-10-27 5:53:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Not at all. And I hope many more run but that foreigners of all stripes keep their noses out of our elections.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-10-27 6:04:06 PM||   2004-10-27 6:04:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Not at all. And I hope many more run but that foreigners of all stripes keep their noses out of our elections.

I imagine they will (keep their noses out)...so long as those candidates attempting to pawn themselves off to voters as "Catholic" don't repeatedly espouse anti-Catholic doctrine.
Posted by Crusader 2004-10-27 7:29:20 PM||   2004-10-27 7:29:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#44  The bottom line with Kerry is the issue of abortion. The Church views this as taking a human life, a defenceless human life. I fully agree; "People in Rome are becoming more and more aware that there’s a problem with John Kerry" People in Boston, Philly, Chicago, New York, even Hackensack, from one end of the nation to the other think Kerry has countless problems.
Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-10-27 7:41:44 PM||   2004-10-27 7:41:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 Mrs Davis, this is not "Rome Issuing Orders". This is the Vatican finally finding its voice, its backbone, and standing up for the moral positions the Church has had all along, but has been too timid to voice for fear of getting Catholics hurt.

In the US part of the Church, there has been a long standing effort to try to "go along to get along" and not get singled out, to fit in. And this has been at the expense of the faith and core values.

Those times are at an end. And, Mrs D, you ought to note that its US Bishops that are pushing to get the authority of the Church to speak up on this, most notably the Archbishops in St Louis and Denver.

Nobody in the Vatican is telling you anything unless you are Catholic. And the thing the Vatican is doing is pointing out that the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that if you wish to remain in communion with the Church, there are things that are off limits to you. Thats what makes you Catholic.

The "orders" Catholcis obey are all out there in a book called the Catechism of the Catholic Church. You might want to avail yourself of that, because your statements about "orders from Rome" belie your ignorance as to the requirements of the Catholic Faith on individuals to use a well-formed individual conscience to make moral decisions. The Church provides many things, like the Catechism, lives of Saints, doctrines and guidance to help properly form the individual Conscience, with the Gospel as its basis. All the Church can do is approve or disapprove of actions, and impose consequences on an individuals relationship to the Church. Its your decision, in the end, as to whether you choose to take the burdens that come with the faith.

And, I guess if you have problems with that, then you must have problems with anyone who lets that ancient Jewish foriegner named Jesus influence their decisions; after all, the Church He established roughly 2000 years ago still speaks with His voice, be it from a local pulpit in a Baptist Church, or a Cathedral in Rome.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-10-27 9:25:42 PM||   2004-10-27 9:25:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 And BH, for someone accusing others of being FOS, you certainly are yourself. You sound almost like the KKK'ers who used to go after Catholics and Jews when they didn't have any Blacks around.

FYI, there has been a segment of the Catholic Church that has tried to hold candidates accountable for years. They have not always been heard, given the "nice guy" Bishops that kowtow to the political left in the US (remember "Liberation Theology" and the leftist priests?) have supressed them. BUt now the Church is changing, and being driven to the truth and acting on it.

This is not something new, nor is it something only used at the Presidential level.

In Colorado, one Senatorial candidate is pro-choice, and pro death penalty, the other is pro-life and opposes the death penalty even at the cost of some popularity in the election. Guess which one the scores higher in the "Catholic Issues" ratings (it cannot endorse, of course)? The first candidate is "Catholic", but the second candidate gets the support (he also happens to be Catholic). Its only incidental that the latter is a Republican.

What has changed is that the Church is finally waking up and realizing that it "go along to get along" that broguht it declining membership and the perv priest problems were a symptom of not making a hard and public stand on vital moral issues.

Cardinal Law of Boston was a proponent of being easy on the morals to fit in - and consquently he had the worst sexual scandals in his diocese. Cradinal Stafford and now Archbishop Chaput were much more absolutist and vocal about it, and established no-tolerance policies on sexual misconduct in the early 90's and also have been much stricter with morals. That has paid off with the Archdiocese of Denver being probably the "cleanest" major metro diocese.

So don't talk about what you don't know about, or else you will get called on it.
Posted by OldSpook 2004-10-27 9:41:50 PM||   2004-10-27 9:41:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 He's done it in every election for the last 20+ years. Why pick on him this time?

Um... because Mr. Kerry wasn't running for President?






Posted by Pappy 2004-10-27 11:21:47 PM||   2004-10-27 11:21:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 
Vatican finds a problem with Kerry
Take a number and get in line.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut  2004-10-27 11:23:54 PM||   2004-10-27 11:23:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 You sound almost like the KKK'ers who used to go after Catholics and Jews when they didn't have any Blacks around.

And you sound like the fucking moonbats who holler "Nazi" every time somebody says something they don't want to hear. I explained quite clearly why I have a problem with it. Don't try to make this into some bogus intolerance issue. Crusader pointed out that JoKe brought this down on himself, and I conceded that.
Posted by BH 2004-10-28 1:06:45 AM||   2004-10-28 1:06:45 AM|| Front Page Top

17:03 Liberalhawk
17:03 Liberalhawk
12:06 Mrs. Davis
11:57 lex
08:55 Howard UK
08:42 Aris Katsaris
02:21 gromky
02:07 Rafael
01:58 gromky
01:57 ed
01:51 gromky
01:47 ed
01:39 Asedwich
01:06 BH
00:42 Ricky bin Ricardo (Abu Babaloo)
00:32 Tibor
00:28 Urako
00:20 spiffo
00:13 Aris Katsaris
00:05 ed
23:56 Steve
23:51 JAB
23:48 ed
23:45 ed









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