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2009-10-17 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia

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Posted by tipper 2009-10-17 00:58|| || Front Page|| [11134 views ] Top

#1 Turkey was lost to the west 29 May, 1453.

Posted by Shavise Guelph3916 2009-10-17 07:05|| 2009-10-17 07:05|| Front Page Top

#2 Implicit in this column is the view that Turkey was 'lost' through US mistakes and that, presumably, the more able policy would have been to promote a military coup. Hypotheses like this are essentially untestable because, although it's clear the actual strategy produced poor results, it is by no means certain that the alternative strategy would have done better - it may well have done even worse. Sometimes, situations are bad and almost all outcomes are negative. Attempted coups can fail leading to liquidation of allies. Coups can also succeed temporarily, but then leave permanent resentment and blow-back for a generation (Greece, for example). The world is gradually becoming more democratic and that is largely a good thing, in spite of the fact that some of the temporary and awful results include an Islamic party taking control in Turkey. This isn't to say that Glick is wrong in saying the Bush policy was naive and too hopeful in its treatment of Erdogan; it's to say that even if Bush (or more precisely, his advisors) had been more hard-headed in regard to Turkey, that they had any realistically good alternatives. Turkey's interests have been less aligned with us since the collapse of the Soviet Empire after which, understandably, Turkey's fear of Russia greatly dimished. Once fear is gone as a motivator, gratitude for past support is a pallid substitute.

Posted by Odysseus 2009-10-17 10:35|| 2009-10-17 10:35|| Front Page Top

#3 Oi vey, the "un-testability" of social sciences. Look up Polybius (book 1---written 2200 years ago) for rebutal.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2009-10-17 11:28|| 2009-10-17 11:28|| Front Page Top

#4 "The world is gradually becoming more democratic"

No, it is not.

Posted by Large Snerong7311 2009-10-17 12:17|| 2009-10-17 12:17|| Front Page Top

#5 Turkey lost when conquest no longer directly added coin to the vault, and there was not a reasonably assured way for the ordinary person to bank so anything other than small market stuff and hiding your valuables in a hole in the ground...but blame Attaturk for their problems. The concept of Turkey being European or Western, as far as I know, only dates back to WWI, and is not a Turkish point of view.

Posted by swksvolFF 2009-10-17 13:42|| 2009-10-17 13:42|| Front Page Top

#6 The greatest national pride that the Turks collectively possess is their ability to stab someone in the back.

I'm sad to see Caroline Glick's brain has become infected with the blame game. Blame or more specifically blaming Jews, is what keeps the Palestinians and all other Islamist countries from having to make real reforms. Blaming George Bush is what allows Western liberal leaders the same escape.

Blame is like black mold - it infects everything it touches. It allows the person casting blame to at once feel superior and as if they are actually doing something constructive. In fact it does neither.

Blaming GW for the Turks being backstabbers is like blaming the automobile for killing the dinosaurs. It's silly. Sad to see she reducing herself to such meaningless drivel.

But take heart, the Turks will eventually stab the Syrians, the Iranians and everyone else in the back. It's just what they do.

Posted by Jumbo Slinerong5015 2009-10-17 17:29|| 2009-10-17 17:29|| Front Page Top

#7 When the Turks denied passage of the 4ID across Turkey in order for the 4ID to attack Saddam from the north, they strung us along for 2 weeks, IIRC. Bottom line is that they jacked us around, causing us some serious problems in OIF. When you get jacked around and burned like that, you must accept the fact and the situation and move on. It was a painful and expensive lesson that you could not trust the Turks. You can buy them off, perhaps, but how long will they stay bought? Not a pretty picture. Sometimes you have to buy someone off, but it is a temporary fix, and it must be realized that it is not a long term solution.

Commenter #6 has it right. Turkey will shaft its new allies. Turkey will suffer the consequences of their behaviors.

Fooled once: shame on you
Fooled twice: shame on me

Posted by Alaska Paul 2009-10-17 18:48|| 2009-10-17 18:48|| Front Page Top

#8 like blaming the automobile for killing the dinosaurs.

I would adore you for that simile alone, Jumbo Slinerong5015.

Posted by trailing wife 2009-10-17 18:52|| 2009-10-17 18:52|| Front Page Top

#9 I'm with AP. Deny them any NATO help, any tech help and any parts for their NATO fleet - they've gone native.

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2009-10-17 19:34|| 2009-10-17 19:34|| Front Page Top

#10 It was a painful and expensive lesson that you could not trust the Turks.

FWIW, the U.S. State Department had a big role in scuttling that arrangement.

Posted by Pappy 2009-10-17 22:15|| 2009-10-17 22:15|| Front Page Top

23:46 gromky
23:44 gorb
23:17 Anguper Hupomosing9418
23:11 Anguper Hupomosing9418
23:04 trailing wife
22:31 Cornsilk Blondie
22:15 Pappy
22:07 Pappy
22:05 Mike Kozlowski
22:04 Skunky Glins****
22:02 Mike Kozlowski
21:56 Skunky Glins****
21:44 Alaska Paul
21:30 phil_b
20:02 Anonymoose
19:46 Procopius2k
19:46 Frank G
19:37 JohnQC
19:34 Frank G
19:33 JohnQC
19:32 eLarson
19:20 Old Patriot
19:13 Skunky Glins****
19:09 JohnQC