Article

2004-10-15 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-10-15 2:32:59 AM|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The Catholic Church still has teeth in Spain. As Zappy will find out.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-10-15 2:49:55 AM|| 2004-10-15 2:49:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 OldSpook you sure of that? Doesn't sound like it in the article. It's sounds like the church is going to get steamrolled.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-15 3:42:27 AM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-10-15 3:42:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 ol Zappy - what a great guy. Didn't they hang Mussolini from a lamp post? I suppose there is still hope.

Posted by 2b 2004-10-15 5:23:01 AM|| 2004-10-15 5:23:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 So is it a good thing that The Catholic Church still has teeth in Spain? Of a good thing that there are 32,000 religion teachers in their schools? Or that they are paid through a govt subsidy? If the church still had any moral power, it wouldn't need to bludgeon it's agenda through by using secular muscle. Of course, they've been doing it so long it's like breathing to them.

Another interesting point: only 5% of young Spainards abide by the church's sex rules. Sort of like here, only more so. So, all these people are BAD catholics? Must be tough to be good. So does the church throw all these people out, deny them communion, etc? Or does it figure their $ is as good as anybody else's?

Posted by Weird Al 2004-10-15 7:14:12 AM|| 2004-10-15 7:14:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 "Congress shall make no law with respect to an establishment of religion." Articl One, bill of rights. The framers were worried about winding up with something similar to the church of england. Based on current performances such as this and the bishops in the US, they should have been a lot more worried about the church of rome.

Posted by Not Amused 2004-10-15 8:35:41 AM|| 2004-10-15 8:35:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I see I've drawn out the Catholic Bashers. Welcome aboard.

1) Yes it is a good thing the Church still has a vocie in Spain - if it didn't we'd not be able to vocally protest evils like Abortion. And, natrually, the Church is for sinners - if you are perfect, cast the first stone. As for young people, they aren't exactly known for thier wisdom, are they? ANd there are a heirarchy of things in terms of importance. The obedience to the moral teachings on sexual conduct is fairly far down compared to abortion and war for ANY religion, if you bother to think about it. ANd that's your problem: you reflexively bash, not thinking, when it comes to Religion Wierd Al - you're consistent about it.

2) "Not Amused" the US constitution does not apply in Spain. Did you know that?

Why are you worried about an Archbishop speaking to his faithful and advising them of the spiritual cost of actions they are taking? There is no threat to the 1st amendment there by the "Church of Rome". Kerry people all the time say "Vote Your Conscience". Well, that's what Catholics are urged to do all the time - but its an INFORMED conscience, especially when it comes to the cooperation with evil and the risk of your soul if you support a candidate that supports evil. That is what the Archbishop was pointing out to Catholics. Given the abhorrent nature of Abortion, and the requisite destruction of human life in embryonic stem cell research, the view of the CHurch is that to vote for someone who promotes this evil is to sanction it formally, and thus tie yourself to the enablement of mass evil, 40 million abotions a year in the US. If you truly believe it then its akin to voting for Hitler, or Stalin, in terms of the mass killers of the 20th centurie.

*IF* you are Catholic, then you recite the creed every mass, out loud, as an oath to God, that includes "I believe in the one holy catholic and apostolic Church". Note the emphasis. This means you accept the authority of the Church as it descend from the powers granted the apostles by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and you therefore accept its dogma -the core teachings.

In Catholic theology, there can be no disagreement on dogmatic issues. On doctrinal issues (celibate priests for example) there is room for argument. But on dogma (Human life is sacred and begins at conception) there is no wiggle room. If you accept that, if you truly are Catholic, then the Archbishop's words are directed at you. If you are not self-bound to the Catholic Church, then feel free to ignore the Archbishop.

Given that you are not Catholic, why are you so worried? Do voters who truly vote their conscience bother you? DO preachers and Bishops who exercise their first amendment rights for pratice their religion freely frighten you?

It seems they do from your posts. You look to be taking the "left wing" position of freedom of speech that's common these days. "Freedom for me but not for thee".

I say freedom for all - remember the first amendment was put there to prevent people from being muzzled in the great public debate, and to prevent repression of religious people by the state or a state church.

You seem to think it was put there to completely muzzle religion in the public arena of ideas. Sorry, but you are wrong.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-10-15 10:17:44 AM|| 2004-10-15 10:17:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 AMEN!

Posted by domingo 2004-10-15 10:58:30 AM|| 2004-10-15 10:58:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 I believe in the entire 1st amendment, including the part regarding free speech, so we have no problem there. OS, I knew it was you as soon as I starting reading your post, didn't have to get to the end. You are absolutely entitled to your beliefs. I could care less. Am I catholic? Nope. Christian? Nope. Jew? Nope? I am what I am, and don't feel the need to proclaim it at great length. Left wing repression of freedom of speech? Please. I don't engage in personal attacks, and hope you don't have to either. Politically, a pox of both their houses. I took the libertarian test a few weeks back, and scored 100%. I don't object to anyone's religion. At all. Unless they try to tell me they have the only key to their particular heaven. So I guess in that sense I'll bow to your position. Feel free to have members of your church attack anyone they like. Just accord everyone else, the ones you don't like, the same priviledge.

Do these preachers frighten me? Not particularly. I simply dislike people who think they have the only truth, no matter which side of the line they're on. Do I distrust the upper hierarchy of the church? Absolutely. Live with it.

Posted by Weird Al 2004-10-15 11:12:41 AM|| 2004-10-15 11:12:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 OBTW, not muslim either. Truly a religion of evil. I may not trust a few people in the catholic church, but I don't trust any of these folks.

Posted by Weird Al 2004-10-15 11:35:03 AM|| 2004-10-15 11:35:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 OS AMEN! There are a lot of socialists in Spain and a TON of Catholics too. Zappy would be wise to court their vote as well, if not I can't see his party winning a second term. Wierd Al...Your a Mormon?

Posted by Cyber Sarge 2004-10-15 11:42:40 AM|| 2004-10-15 11:42:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 OK - thanks Wierd Al for clarifying that.

ANd, believe it or not, I often ahve vehement disareements with the upper heirarchy fo the Catholic Church, especially on doctrinal matters, like mandated celibacy for Priests. I'd prefer the eastern model: if you are married you can become a priest, but only the celibate monks would be able to move to the bishop and cardinal level as only they woudl be "married to the Church" - married priests would be parish priests. And thats where they woudl be the most releveant and helpful - after all, in many ways it is easier for a father to counsel about children than it is for a celibate priest.

Likewise, some of the Vatican's actions often appear to be officious meddling and based in euro-socailism rather than the Catechism and Gospel. Sometimes they forget that the Apostolic part entails that they are servants of the Church, not the other way around. If they are not carefuly, they drift toward the way Muslims do it.

As for the Muslims - the more you read thier Khoran, and the "scholarly" research about Dhimmis, and Khefirs, and their treatment of them, and the belief in a strict Master-Slave relationship at the core of their theology (thus promoting a hierachy of master-slave relationships from the Imam to the follwoers to thier slaves to the unbelievers, etc), the more you will see it is a truly twisted religion.

Add to that the warping of the even more extreme Tawhidists of the Salafi's (Osama Bin Laden, Taliban), and the Wahabbis (Al Zarqawi, and the SUnni radical in Saudi and Iraq), and you have a truly poisonous admixture that has grossly distorted Arab culture for the worse, for centuries.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-10-15 12:07:15 PM|| 2004-10-15 12:07:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Mormon? Not a chance. Now there's bunch of crazy people. They may be more or less harmless, I'm not sure. I've read a little bit of the book of Mormon for the sake of information. First, the whole thing is obviously written (badly) by one guy. Second, it doesn't even make sense.

The closest I come to being anything is Buddhist. It isn't really a religion in the strictest sense, but says more to me than the others, which I've spent many years studing in a comparative way. Sort of a lifetime hobby, if you will.

Posted by Weird Al 2004-10-15 12:11:17 PM|| 2004-10-15 12:11:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 "Likewise, some of the Vatican's actions often appear to be officious meddling and based in euro-socailism rather than the Catechism and Gospel."

OS: Thank you. That's what I've been trying to say, but you said it better.Leave Caeser's to Caeser and god's to god, etc. And I agree on the priests. Monks in many religions have often been celibate, those who directly minister to their congregations are different.

Posted by Weird Al 2004-10-15 12:16:52 PM|| 2004-10-15 12:16:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 Reaching Out To Our Weird Al.... Now is the time! Grab ahold of that snake that is in your heart and lookit! Lookit Look at It! In the Eye! Grab ahold of that snake around the throat breather! See if Now! Looks different! Snake eyes a little crossed! Yes! Amen! Now! Talk to the snake! Say I've have no god but Liz Montgomery! Find the truth and drop a fiver in the plate! It's for the children!

Posted by Durwood 2004-10-15 4:08:58 PM|| 2004-10-15 4:08:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Weird Al:
I cannot agree with your assessment of the Mormons as "crazy people," though I must admit that their holy book leaves a great deal to be desired next to the Bible proper. I would like to mention that, on the whole, Mormons are a solid, reliable, sober, and patriotic people who make good neighbors. They may wear funny underwear but they are good Americans on the whole.

Posted by Secret Master 2004-10-15 4:09:37 PM|| 2004-10-15 4:09:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 The secret of the Garment is leaked! Typical panhandle trash!

Posted by Durwood 2004-10-15 4:11:38 PM|| 2004-10-15 4:11:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 (chuckle) Actually, Durwood, I was raised Southern Baptist.... which involved a lot of singing but very little serpent handling. I believe you are thinking of the infamous Church of God with Signs Following, which was founded in 1914 by the Reverend George Went Hensley; a real hell raiser by all accounts. There are maybe 2000 of them scattered around Appalachia.

Posted by Secret Master 2004-10-15 4:25:01 PM|| 2004-10-15 4:25:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#18

The one on the right would make a better national leader then the one in charge of Spain currently.

Posted by Mark Espinola 2004-10-15 5:26:58 PM|| 2004-10-15 5:26:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Didn't say the mormons were'nt solid people. they are, as far as I know. Said they were crazy. Stand by the statement. Lots of other crazy people in the world. They're in good company.

Posted by Weird Al 2004-10-15 6:41:42 PM|| 2004-10-15 6:41:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Cobarde ibn Zapatero has rewarded al-Qaeda by pulling out of Iraq too soon and dealt simultaneous life-threatening blows to freedom and the family by warping marriage in ways it was never meant to go.

Way 2 go(not).

Posted by Korora 2004-10-15 7:01:08 PM|| 2004-10-15 7:01:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 OldSpook. You still didn't answer my question. Does the Catholic Church still have enough clout in Spain to stop Comandante Zapatero's anti church plans?

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-10-15 7:45:00 PM|| [http://www.slhess.com] 2004-10-15 7:45:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 SPOD, I don't know. I suppose we will find out. The Church has spent a lot of its "moral capital" on the Anti-war side of things over there in Europe, so they may not have much to stand on to oppose the government they wanted, given this government did withdraw like the clique at the Vatican's foreign office wanted. Although they now want troops in Iraq to help stop the loss of life... Go figure.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-10-15 10:11:13 PM|| 2004-10-15 10:11:13 PM|| Front Page Top

21:36 Sock Puppet of Doom
21:12 MikhailLabour628
12:34 .com
12:27 Elmoling Grenter5116
09:35 Frank G
09:12 thundertaker
18:19 2b
18:02 Sock Puppet of Doom
17:56 Jules 187
17:48 .com
17:34 Snoluck Phusing8642
11:48 Bulldog
11:45 Bulldog
11:44 Shemble Whaiger3886
11:37 2b
11:34 Shemble Whaiger3886
11:18 Bulldog
11:16 Jules 187
11:06 Shemble Whaiger3886
10:30 Englishman
10:27 Englishman
10:25 Bulldog
10:25 Sock Puppet of Doom
10:23 Abu Anus