Article

2006-10-08 Europe

Spain 'needs four million immigrants' by 2020

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Posted by lotp 2006-10-08 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11137 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 In calculating the number of immigrants needed, researchers factored in annual workforce growth of 2-3 percent

Brilliant analysis. We need more workers because we started from the premise we need more workers.

I miss the good old days with it's dire predictions (from the same mob who say we have to have massive immigration) of massive unemployment from ever increasing automation.

Economic illiterates all of them.

Posted by phil_b 2006-10-08 00:51|| 2006-10-08 00:51|| Front Page Top

#2 We have 30 million extra Mexicans here. Start sending rafts over. We can give you 4 million tomorrow morning.

Posted by SpecOp35 2006-10-08 01:19|| 2006-10-08 01:19|| Front Page Top

#3 The Spaniards condescend dreadfully to the "Colonials", according to my Hispanic-American friends living in Europe. But having a sub-population that resents being condescended to is better than one plotting conquest. And such a citizenized sub-population might gradually turn around the culture, bringing love of children and willingness to work -- very hard -- to where it's most needed. Of course, they might have to fight the pre-existing Moroccans, who figure they own that territory, but I imagine the immigrants would figure out how to handle that.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-10-08 04:52|| 2006-10-08 04:52|| Front Page Top

#4 Not just Spain; the *official* Eu mantra is that europe will need a whole bunch of migrants (in the tens of millions range) in the near future, to compensate for its declining natality.

Guess from where they will come?

And there is that INSANE UN rapport which advocates an huge immigration into Europe to maintain its workforce, something I can only qualify as "suicidal", IE remplacing the almost complete european population... or "when tranzis meet anti-western resentment from the UN Elites"
I'll try to find some material on that.

And by the way, during the 2005 campaign for the Eu constitution, one EU politician (I think it was a french, but I really can't remember, it was in a debate, but the idea stuck in my mind) said that "the turks will pay our retirement".

So, really, this is a Cycle of Doom(Tm); the society promoted by the cultural marxists/progressists/tranzis/... leads to a below remplacement birth level, while the welfare State was created in a period of demographical expansion (especially the retirement system)... so, to keep the welfare system, which is at the core of the whole power structure, really, our Enlightened Elites need immigration, from the nearest population pool, which happens to be muslim.
But, muslim migrants are not asked to integrate, and even less assimilate (cf. the Eurabia faustean deal - petrodollars are good!), and they're not (mostly) a working immigration, but a welfare-benefiting immigration (according to the interior minister in 2005, only 5% of legal migrants come in France as workers...).

So, the situation worsens, and the response is : more immigration... like digging a hole to fill an another hole.

So, this is spiralling out of control. But again, it's a feature, not a bug. If the EE had the will, they could enforce a strict immigration policy (they are, in some regards... against East Europe immigration), but it fits into their worldview.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-08 05:54|| 2006-10-08 05:54|| Front Page Top

#5 They can start making babies, or they can import a few ten million more people from all corners of the world and try and convince said immigrants to become good Y'urp-peons, or they can watch their world implode and be taken over by someone else

Good analysis. Wow, this really got me thinking. I was initially going to say that if you want someone to take care of you in your old age, then you have to have children or work hard when you are young to accumulate money. I was thinking that up until the 1950's that America had done a good job of balancing the idea of socialism through the churches (charity is form of socialism without the Robin Hood qualities). The churches did a reasonably good job of providing education and a refuge for the poor and sick and integrating disadvantaged around the world by allowing them to exchange their labor for opportunity. But then, of course, I thought of the south and realized that there is one more thing besides children or money - and that is the power to subjugate others to work for you.

I'm very suspicious of this whole idea that having more babies is the solution because opportunity through hard work is the necessary key to that equation. The reason I am suspicious of this whole idea of just having more babies is because under our current culture of self, it doesn't result in people who are willing to work. And thus money and especially power, rather than hard work, become the ways to accumulate wealth. And power is money. And a very easy path to power is to tell the poor and disadvantaged that if they "vote" for you, you will just give them what they want. But someone, somewhere has to do the work, so then the person who makes that promise, must deliver by subjugating someone else to carry the weight.

There has to be opportunity through hard work at the other end of this bargin or the bargin will collapse as Europe is showing.

Socialists have purposely killed the concept of opportunity by killing the idea that you must work hard so that your children and grandchildren may prosper. Socialism killed it with the idea of self and immediate gratification and entitlement. Thus the opportunity model, as it worked well in the US for so long, is broken. If you don't carry your own load in life, someone else will have to carry it for you and they have to have a reason for wanting to do that.

But I digress from the point that I was musing on. And that is that I think this whole meme put forth both here in the US by our leftists re: immigration as well as the point of this article re: what they want to do in Spain - this idea that we need more immigrants to care for us in our old age- is an ugly distortion of the truth. They are putting forth the lie that: you or someone in your family doesn't need to work hard for the money to help you carry your load, all you need to do is import immigrants and they will do it for you.

But in Spain they are taking the idea and turning into a bigger lie. Those who seek power in Spain are not seeking the immigrants to provide them opportunity in exchange for labor, they are just flooding them in to increase their own power. It appears that the powerful in Spain have realized that it is in their interests to flood immigrants into Spain. It will not help the ordinary Spanish citizen under the socialist model, it will only help those currently in positions of power. It is easy to understand this if you think of the Democrats here and their desire to bring illegals here - not to work, but to vote the current reigning Democrats back into power. It's a lie. You either have to carry your own load or someone else has to carry it for you. More People(TM) either in the form of disadvantaged seeking opportunity or having more children of your own, can only be the solution if those More People(TM) are willing to work hard enough to not only carry their own weight but to pick up and help carry the load of others.

Sorry ...this post is too long. /rant over.

Posted by anon 2006-10-08 06:46|| 2006-10-08 06:46|| Front Page Top

#6 "the turks will pay our retirement"

Or they won't.

Posted by no mo uro 2006-10-08 07:15|| 2006-10-08 07:15|| Front Page Top

#7 "Children are a burden in a cradle-to-grave welfare state. They're expensive and they cut into careers. You can't self-actualize yourself when you're busy being a parent."

Exactly.

We all thought Marxism in Euroland was dead with the collapse of the Soviet Empire. In reality, it was more deeply ingrained - in a soft-core fashion - in Western Europe. Modern Europe has the Marxist trifecta - disdain for religion, an economic system based on envy and outcome equality instead of work ethic and opportunity equality, and the mechanism to smash anyone who dares to object.

It's simply a lot more fun to have "someone else" pay for your schooling and health care, take 7 years to get out of college while being subsidized during that time, work at an easy job for 1/3 of your lifewhile you sit up each night in cafes sipping wine and eating cheese and making fun of cowboy Americans (all the while untroubled by the need to change diapers and deal with ear infections), and retire at 55 and be pretend-rich for twenty five years (again, paid for by "somebody else").

A great program for the kind of selfish, envy-driven, disconnected-from-religion-and-Western-culture person which seems to be the overwhelming norm throughout Europe. However, you can only do this for a generation or two before it collapses.

Posted by no mo uro 2006-10-08 07:30|| 2006-10-08 07:30|| Front Page Top

#8 We all thought Marxism in Euroland was dead with the collapse of the Soviet Empire. In reality, it was more deeply ingrained - in a soft-core fashion - in Western Europe.

No mo uro : this book could interest you (haven't read it myself, what did you expect from a poser like me?)

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-08 07:49|| 2006-10-08 07:49|| Front Page Top

#9 A5089, not only is what you say true, but the 'we need more immigrants to maintain our standard of living' completely ignores that a declining population automatically makes everyone richer (in the aggregate) since a countries accumulated wealth remains the same, but needs to be shared with fewer people, makes many goods and services cheaper, increases wages and salaries because more competition for workers, decreases enviromental problems, decreases crime rates, makes technological innovation more attractive, is your only hope of meeting Kyoto, etc, etc.

Posted by phil_b 2006-10-08 08:05|| 2006-10-08 08:05|| Front Page Top

#10 Phil_b, yup, I know.

Btw, you might want to check this primer on Europe by a retired french businessman, Gérard Pince :
THE FUTURE OF EUROPE
ROAD TO A CIVILIZATION SUICIDE
In a previous version, the topic was more econmy-oriented, and did notice the "pie to distribute to fewer persons" aspect.

By the way, this reminds me a french free-market/conservative weekly I suscribed my grandfather to quoted an african website dedicaced to immigrating into Europe, notably France... and the money quote on that website was "France could easily accomodate about 60 millions immigrants, all they have to do is to raze the forests which account for about 20% of the territory"... a mind-boogling sense of entitlement (the "right to colonize", or when native non-western resentment meets PC-induced white guilt narratives), really.

Posted by anonymous5089 2006-10-08 08:21|| 2006-10-08 08:21|| Front Page Top

#11 Guess they can't throw them back into the ocean now, can they?
I think they'd be better off with 4 million Messicans or Peruvians or Guatamalans than with 4 million North Africans.
Perhaps we, Spain and Mexico could arrange a three-way trade ...

I think the US has had it's fill of importing Black Africans.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-08 09:08|| 2006-10-08 09:08|| Front Page Top

#12 How about encouraging working people to have more children?

Posted by gromgoru 2006-10-08 09:50|| 2006-10-08 09:50|| Front Page Top

#13 Say what, Redneck Jim?????

Posted by lotp 2006-10-08 09:51|| 2006-10-08 09:51|| Front Page Top

#14 Careful Jim, one of my best friends is a Nigerian-American, wonderful family, smarter than me and works harder too.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2006-10-08 10:52|| 2006-10-08 10:52|| Front Page Top

#15 Sorry you missed the point, prhaps it was a bit too oblique

"We Americans do NOT need to revert to the pre-Civil war days by importing more Slaves"

I'm NOT speaking of immigrants who come of their own free will and join America's society, Nor am I speaking of the descendents of centuries ago Slaves, I'm refering to the articles thrust that "Poor, Uneducated, "Workers" (Translate Slaves) are needed to shore up the "Elite" of Spain who want others to do the work for a pittance, and the reference to a "Three way Swap", with the USA, Spain, and Mexico swapping illegals.
Looks like Spain gets the Mexicans, and we would get the Africans that would normaly be Spain's problems.
Hell NO.
Clear enough?

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-08 11:49|| 2006-10-08 11:49|| Front Page Top

#16 Not quite. I'm puzzled by how you think poor black africans would be swarming our shores. It's a tougher swim than the wade across the Rio Grande.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-08 11:52|| 2006-10-08 11:52|| Front Page Top

#17 I don't care if immigrants to America are pink with purple polkadots as long as they immigrate legally and work hard once they get here.

The EUros should think that way too, but they're too busy feeling self-important pointing out the bigoted speck in America's eye while refusing to acknowledge the bigoted mote in their own.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2006-10-08 12:34|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html] 2006-10-08 12:34|| Front Page Top

#18 well, as long as they're not salmon-pink

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-10-08 12:56|| 2006-10-08 12:56|| Front Page Top

#19 I don't want ANY more immigrants. Period. There isn't a problem in America that wouldn't be easier to fix with only 200 million people rather that 300 million.

Posted by mac 2006-10-08 13:11|| 2006-10-08 13:11|| Front Page Top

#20 Not quite. I'm puzzled by how you think poor black africans would be swarming our shores. It's a tougher swim than the wade across the Rio Grande.

The same way that the Mexicans would get to Spain.
You figure it out LOTP.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-08 13:23|| 2006-10-08 13:23|| Front Page Top

#21 I don't want ANY more immigrants. Period.

Best journey to New York and pull the plaque off the Statue of Liberty.

You know, the one that says "Give me your tired, poor," Etc.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-08 13:26|| 2006-10-08 13:26|| Front Page Top

#22 Redneck Jim,

do you need a cut man?

Posted by Dr Ferdie Pacheco 2006-10-08 14:22|| 2006-10-08 14:22|| Front Page Top

#23 RJim, if I'm correct, was saying that the current Spanish "requirement" is being filled by importing black Africans to be their "slaves".

A three way trade would seem to be saying that Spain gets our illegal Mexicans; and we get Spains illegal (and legal) black Africans.

That's a deal that he rejects and rightly so.

Posted by AlanC">AlanC 2006-10-08 16:05|| 2006-10-08 16:05|| Front Page Top

#24 I don't want ANY more immigrants. Period. There isn't a problem in America that wouldn't be easier to fix with only 200 million people rather that 300 million.

My sentiments exactly!

Best journey to New York and pull the plaque off the Statue of Liberty.

That plaque should have been pulled off a hundred years ago, but certainly today. We, America, do not need any more immigrants. The more people, the more problems you have. We're heading for eventual 3rd world status as we add people.

Posted by NoBeards 2006-10-08 16:12|| 2006-10-08 16:12|| Front Page Top

#25 there is nothing wrong with immigrants who come here legally for opportunity. It's what makes us strong. The trick is to make sure there is work for them here once they get here. Work that pays them a living wage - without having the taxpayers foot the bill that the employers are currently not paying.

The argument that women need to get busy and have more children smacks of just another meme that if someone else just did something, then the problem would be taken care of. The bottom line is each person has a load in life that needs to be carried by someone. You can do it by working extra hard when you are young and save money for old age. Or you can work hard to raise good children who will take care of you when you are old.

To keep the the cycle going, you have to have enough young people entering the job pool to take care of the old. It doesn't matter if you birth them yourself of if you import them. But if those you import don't pull their own weight, the system will eventually collapse.

Posted by anon 2006-10-08 18:30|| 2006-10-08 18:30|| Front Page Top

#26 But if those you import don't pull their own weight, the system will eventually collapse.

same also goes for the ones you give birth to.

Posted by anon 2006-10-08 18:32|| 2006-10-08 18:32|| Front Page Top

#27 Not only is there nothing wrong with immigrants who come here to work and settle, their willingness to do so is one reality check for the coddled descendents of those who have already made a comfortable life here.

Don't want to study math, science or engineering? Then don't complain when the high paying jobs go to people who came here, or whose parents came here, from Japan, India, Taiwan, Russia.

Don't want to take the risks of starting or buying a small service business and working long hours? Then don't be surprised if the 7/11 is run by an immigrant and his family, if the Best Western is owned by an Indian family whose members clean the rooms, cook the meals, man the check-in desk in and around doing homework.

Legal hardworking immigrants who come to settle here keep us honest. Not a bad thing IMO.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-08 18:44|| 2006-10-08 18:44|| Front Page Top

#28 hear, hear #27 lotp.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2006-10-08 18:47|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html] 2006-10-08 18:47|| Front Page Top

#29 And the Spanish government does not want the incoming workers to be citizens : no advantage to them with that. What the Spanish government is trying to implement now is a guest worker program with no promise of citizenship. Remember, Spain is one of the European countries with the grandfather rule : if you can prove that your grandfather emigrated from Spain, you can legally apply for immigrant status to Spain that eventually leads to citizenship. The problem with that law for the present government is that all of the Latin Americans that emigrating back are fleeing the pseudo-populism/socialism of Chavez and his ilk. Makes the new citizens much more conservative and boosts the chances of the non-socialist political parties in Spain. So the Spanish socialists want a guest worker program that eliminates the need for the Hispanic returnees and helps them maintain power and control.

Posted by Shieldwolf 2006-10-08 18:49|| 2006-10-08 18:49|| Front Page Top

#30 the issue with incoming illegals is that they have few skills (other than teh willingness to do hard work) and start at the entry level (which harms teens and minorities looking to enter the job market) and are an overwhelming burden financially on schools, hospitals, and taxpayers, while sending their wages home. If we could choose (we can) who to admit, poor ignorant migrant mexicans is NOT what we would choose. But then again, I'm not a Democratic politician or union organizer

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-10-08 18:55|| 2006-10-08 18:55|| Front Page Top

#31 Sheildwolf and Lopt you have said what I wish to express so much better than I. As I said in my much too long post above, Those who seek power in Spain are not seeking the immigrants to provide them opportunity in exchange for labor, they are just flooding them in to increase their own power. It appears that the powerful in Spain have realized that it is in their interests to flood immigrants into Spain. It will not help the ordinary Spanish citizen under the socialist model, it will only help those currently in positions of power. It is easy to understand this if you think of the Democrats here and their desire to bring illegals here - not to work, but to vote the current reigning Democrats back into power.

Posted by anon 2006-10-08 18:57|| 2006-10-08 18:57|| Front Page Top

#32 Anyone who's ever looked into the requirements for emigration to another country - that's not a shithole or on it's way to becoming one, of course, knows that almost everybody else out there is picky as hell about whom they allow in.

Posted by .com 2006-10-08 19:00|| 2006-10-08 19:00|| Front Page Top

#33 Yes. And several times in our own history we've throttled immigration down to a trickle as we assimilated large waves. For example after the Irish famines in the 19th century and then again after the wave of immigrants from Eastern Europe at the turn of the20th century.

But then we opened the doors again and overall it's been good for us. One difference tho -- those Irish and Poles and Ukrainians weren't sending money home via the local moneychanger nor were they going to work a couple years and go home easily. (Although some had hopes along those lines.)

Assimilation worked in part because it HAD to. The WASPS had to come to grips with Catholic Irish, Italians, Poles. The immigrants had to come to grips with being citizens of THIS country. And that meant they had strong incentive to have their kids educated and learn both English and a good trade.

Posted by lotp 2006-10-08 19:37|| 2006-10-08 19:37|| Front Page Top

#34 It doesn't matter where a person was born, but rather his loyalties. If he is a loyal American and willing to fight for America and our constitution, then he is a fine candidate for citizen. The rest is a matter of education. We are too soft. We don't demand enough of our children. We should have separate schools for bosy and girls and have a rewards system which moves only the able into higher education. Instead, our universities are businesses. Profit makers, exploiting their students for dollars and for performance on the playing field.
To be a success, you must be concerned about the experience your customer has dealing with you. Hungry immigrants sometimes know this and are the most reliable among their peers. Companies proud of their names are also reliable as are individuals just starting who would become successful. After success, some become fat and disinterested, bullying employees and becoming parasites on the work of others. Other companies advance college grads over their own experts. Mistakes are made which open doors for competition, which keeps the mix boiling. In Europe, there was never a mix, and boiling only occurs during wars. None of the European countries need immigrants, they need to make productive contributions to their societies, and stop the free rides. Then again, it's prolly too late for that.

Posted by wxjames 2006-10-08 19:43|| 2006-10-08 19:43|| Front Page Top

#35 Redneck Jim,

do you need a cut man?

Sorry, don't get the reference. "Cut Man?"

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-08 20:23|| 2006-10-08 20:23|| Front Page Top

#36 from wikipedia: A cutman is a person responsible for preventing and treating physical damage to a fighter during the breaks between rounds of a full contact match such as a boxing, kickboxing or a mixed martial arts bout. Cutmen typically handle swelling, nosebleeds and lacerations (commonly called cuts). The rules of full contact sports stipulate that these injuries can be a cause for premature match stoppage, counting as a loss to the injured fighter. The cutman is therefore essential to the fighter, and can be a decisive factor in the outcome of the match.

Posted by anon 2006-10-08 20:32|| 2006-10-08 20:32|| Front Page Top

#37 And Pacheco has been around for a couple of decades - now does announcer duties for televised fights. I can't imagine who posted that comment, though, lol.

Posted by .com 2006-10-08 20:36|| 2006-10-08 20:36|| Front Page Top

#38 well if anything, I think this discussion proves my point that this whole Have More Babies meme is fit for the trash pail. While I do think that people who have children truly beneifit over those who do not, I don't think that having more babies is a solution to the socialist ponzi problem. As a woman, I'm getting pretty sick of the demand we become incubators for the good of the state. There are plenty of people in the world and they are producing plenty of offspring to keep fair, honest capitalist governments operating for many years to come. Many throughout the world are willing to work hard to change their circumstance. It used to be that we had a good balance between the exchange of labor and opportunity for those poor and wretched that had the get up and go to get here - but that was then. Now they think all they have to do is cross the border and they are entitled to welfare and healthcare for life without having to earn it. It doesn't work unless they are willing to work hard to achieve what others worked sometimes generations to acquire. But the media floods us with the constant theme of me, myself and I. It's all about meeeeee. I want it all and I don't want to have to do my share to earn it. The whole I'm entitled to what everyone else has no matter how little I work - is the poison that ails us. Our democratic politicians pander to this, making promises they know they can't keep but sound good and get them elected.

Posted by anon 2006-10-08 20:45|| 2006-10-08 20:45|| Front Page Top

#39 Got it, no right now I don't need a cut man thank you, (Though I was taking a misunderstood licking for a short bit there) but I sure do need some readers that have basic english comprehension amongst their talents.
Intuitive understanding of english would be a plus, and the ability to understand and compose puns would be an added bonus as well.
Sometimes I feel like I'm speaking to an entire audience of non-english speakers who just do not get the fine nuances expressed.
Probably my fault, I expect others to understand, and I'm being a bit obtuse.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-08 20:52|| 2006-10-08 20:52|| Front Page Top

#40 That plaque should have been pulled off a hundred years ago, but certainly today. We, America, do not need any more immigrants. The more people, the more problems you have. We're heading for eventual 3rd world status as we add people.

You must live in a major city, there's more than enough room for hundreds of millions of more people to live in america without any crowding.

I've traveled, if you get ten miles out of any major metropolis there's only wasteland.Farmlamd, rare houses and undeveloped areas where people could live, farm, and build communities, but they're empty because most would rather live cheek to jowl in a City.

I've lived where the nearest neighbor was about 5 miles, and we didn't like them enough to socialize, the same area now is a suburb, (at least on the surface,) one side of my land is a "Bedroom Community" and the other side is still wilderness, the "Civilazation" is entirely localized. along the road, and incursions seem to be well under a half mile or less from this same road.

Kinda like a "Strip Mall" civilization, all in a row.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-10-08 21:19|| 2006-10-08 21:19|| Front Page Top

#41 Do you need a cutman?

Do you need a cut man?

Do you need a cut, man?

All quite different meanings, much to the despair of non-English speakers.

Posted by phil_b 2006-10-08 21:32|| 2006-10-08 21:32|| Front Page Top

#42 Uh oh, a man of letters, lol, I'll slink away very very slooowly... :-)

Posted by .com 2006-10-08 21:41|| 2006-10-08 21:41|| Front Page Top

#43 We, America, do not need any more immigrants.

Why not? It's how we conquer other nations. We attract their best and leave the dregs. That has happened to Europe to a large extent. Just think what would happen if we opened the gates to pre 1965 levels. The best would come.

The more people, the more problems you have.

You have the same problems either way. The more people you have the more solutions you get, if you attract the right kind of people.

We're heading for eventual 3rd world status as we add people.

No, Globalization is making that happen, regardless of immigration.

The question is whether we want to attract the best, smartest, most successful people or let them stay where they are. I say we should change our immigration policies to attract them, not to attract the extended families of refugees and asylum seekers who just go on the dole. Make immigrant the clear contributors they were 50-100 years ago.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-10-08 22:35|| 2006-10-08 22:35|| Front Page Top

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