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2006-09-30 Europe

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Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-09-30 00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Muslims seem to have a great abundance of self-ordained priests and other "clergy."

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2006-09-30 00:16|| 2006-09-30 00:16|| Front Page Top

#2 Sure - AFAIK that's how it works in SlammyLand. Anyone can open a "moskkk" and declare himself an imam. If people show up and listen, then it is so.

Not far from the compound where I lived in al Khobar some guy with a Mo complex put up a little shack and installed a PA system - and went into business. I remember rather well his first day - waking me up with his 4:00 AM call to prayers. He was still at it when I left, though I can't say how many "followers" he had. I presume that, at some point, the mutawas come around to certify him or something. But it appears you can hang out a shingle and get to wailing if you're into it.

Posted by .com 2006-09-30 00:57|| 2006-09-30 00:57|| Front Page Top

#3 The non-shia form of Islam looks like anarchy to the rest of us.

Posted by 3dc 2006-09-30 04:01|| 2006-09-30 04:01|| Front Page Top

#4 .com - that doesn't sound much different than the unaffiliated or primitive Baptists out in the countryside around here. Or the city storefront Bible churches. I had a relative some years back who built & ran a church but never even attended high school, much less a religious seminary. Of course, I don't believe he advocated chopping the heads off those who went to different churches.

Posted by Glenmore">Glenmore 2006-09-30 08:41|| 2006-09-30 08:41|| Front Page Top

#5 Anyone can open a "moskkk" and declare himself an imam. If people show up and listen, then it is so.

Yep, what Gilmore said. One of the few positives about muzzie theory.

Posted by 6 2006-09-30 09:24|| 2006-09-30 09:24|| Front Page Top

#6 Ima thinkrn we should spread the meme that only the most faithful Imams learn to handle snakes...heh heh

Posted by Frank G 2006-09-30 09:31|| 2006-09-30 09:31|| Front Page Top

#7 Benedict quite delicately raises the pressing question of who exactly speaks for Islam.

Who, exactly, speaks for Christianity?

Posted by KBK 2006-09-30 10:58|| 2006-09-30 10:58|| Front Page Top

#8 Who, exactly, speaks for Christianity?

That would be Jesus. And that is pretty much the problem in a nutshell isn't it? I mean if you look at what Jesus said, it's all pretty good, works well, keeps pretty much everybody happy. But if we look at what Mohammed said in the Koran ....... that whole Religion of Peace thing starts to break down on us.

Posted by anon 2006-09-30 11:34|| 2006-09-30 11:34|| Front Page Top

#9 "I mean if you look at what Jesus said, it's all pretty good, works well, keeps pretty much everybody happy. But if we look at what Mohammed said in the Koran ....... that whole Religion of Peace thing starts to break down on us"

Illustrated:

Mohammed was the prophet of war; Christ is the Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6-7).

Mohammed's disciples killed for the faith; Christ's disciples were killed for their faith (Acts 12:2; 2 Timothy 4:7).

Mohammed promoted persecution against the "infidels"; Christ forgave and converted the chief persecutor (1 Timothy 1:13-15).

Mohammed was the taker of life; Christ was the giver of life (John 10:27-28).

Mohammed and his fellow warriors murdered thousands; Christ murdered none but saved many (compare John 12:48).

Mohammed's method was COMPULSION; Christ's aim was voluntary CONVERSION (Acts 3:19).

Mohammed practiced FORCE; Christ preached FAITH (John 6:29, 35).

Mohammed was a WARRIOR; Christ is a DELIVERER (Col. 1:13; 1 Thessalonians 1:10).

Mohammed conquered his enemies with the sword; Christ conquered his enemies with another kind of sword, the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God (Hebrews 4:12; Acts 2:37).

Mohammed said to the masses, "Convert or die!"; Christ said, "Believe and live!" (John 6:47; 11:25-26).

Mohammed was swift to shed blood (Romans 3:15-17); Christ shed His own blood for the salvation of many (Ephesians 1:7).

Mohammed preached "Death to the infidels!"; Christ prayed "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34).

Mohammed declared a holy war (Jihad) against infidels; Christ achieved a holy victory on Calvary's cross (Colossians 2:14-15) and His followers share in that victory (John 16:33).

Mohammed constrained people by conquest; Christ constrained people by love (2 Corinthians 5:14).

Modern terrorists derive their inspiration from Mohammed and carry out their despicable atrocities in the name of his god; Christians derive their inspiration from the One who said, "Blessed are the peacemakers" (Matthew 5:9).

Modern day disciples of Mohammed respond to the terrorist attacks by cheering in the streets; Modern day disciples of Christ are deeply grieved at past atrocities carried out by those who were "Christians" in name only (the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, etc.).

Many Muslims are peaceful and peace-loving because they do not strictly follow the teachings of their founder; Many Christians are peaceful and peace-loving because they do strictly follow the teachings of their Founder (Romans 12:17-21).

Mohammed said the Koran is authoritative only in Arabic, and only in his dialect; The Bible is authoritative in many languages around the world, for God knows all things and can inspire (and preserve) His Word in more than one language.

Mohammed hated music; Jesus and His disciples sang hymns, and the Apostle commanded the Lord's Church to sing. (Matthew 26:30, Ephesians 5:19, Colossians 3:16).

Mohammed allowed that a Mullah, Imam, or Mufti of Islam can be a terrorist and an amoral animal like Osama bin Laden; The Bible requires that a leader in the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ must be above reproach, and when this is not true, Christians demand such a fallen leader be removed from leadership. (1 Timothy 3:1-7, 5:19-20).

Islam calls on its followers to observe Five Pillars, while all other aspects of life can be vulgar and not affect the Muslim's prospects in Paradise. The Bible calls on the Christian to submit to the total change of his life by the Spirit of God -- NO area of life and thought is the choice of the follower. (Romans 12:1-2).

The Muslim looks forward to eternity in Paradise where there will be virgins who are used for eternal perpetual copulation.

The Bible believing Christian looks forward to being with Jesus Christ and is delighted with that. (2 Corinthians 5:8).

Mohammed said the witness of a woman was half the value of the witness of a man; and Muhammed said a woman goes to Paradise because she satisfies her husband sexually; The Bible teaches that a husband is to love his wife and be willing to die for her. (Ephesians 5:25).

Mohammed called upon his servants to fight; Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world; if My kingdom were of this world, then would My servants fight . . . but now is My kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36).

Mohammed ordered death to the Jews (see A. Guillaume, The Life of Muhammad, Oxford University Press [1975], p. 369); Christ ordered that the gospel be preached "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16).

The Koran says, "Fight in the cause of Allah" (Qu'ran 2.244); The Bible says, "we wrestle not against flesh and blood" and "the weapons of our warfare are not carnal" (Ephesians 6:12; 2 Corinthians 10:4).

The Koran says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them" (Qu'ran 9.5); Christ said, "Preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark 16:15).

The Koran says, "I will inspire terror into the hearts of unbelievers" (Qu'ran 8.12); God inspires His terror into the hearts of believers (Isaiah 8:13).

The Koran (Qu'ran) is a terrorist manual which condones fighting, conflict, terror, slaughter, and genocide against those who do not accept Islam; The Bible is a missionary manual to spread the gospel of peace to all the world (Romans 10:15).

Mohammed's Mission was to conquer the world for Allah; Christ's mission was to conquer sin's penalty and power by substitutionary atonement (2 Corinthians 5:21; 1 Peter 3:18).

Mohammed considered Christ a good prophet; Christ pronounced (in His statement on many false prophets arising) Mohammed to be a false prophet (John 10:10; Matthew 24:11).

Mohammed claimed that there was but one God, Allah; Christ claimed that He was God (John 10:30-31; John 8:58-59; John 5:18; John 14:9).

Islam is geocentric, that is, the whole universe is centered on the Kaaba in the Grand Mosque in Mecca in Arabia, and all Muslims pray facing that direction; Jesus Christ is the center of all Christian worship and fellowship, for He is "in the midst" where his saints meet anywhere on earth. (Matthew 18:20, John 4:22-23).

Mohammed's Tomb: OCCUPIED! Christ's tomb: EMPTY!

Islam must be received, or you can be killed for rejecting it:

The Faith offered by Jesus Christ is for "whosoever will" to receive, and all men are permitted to reject it. (Revelation 22:17, John 3:16).

Those who leave Islam are killed in most Islamic nations; Those who leave the true Church of Jesus Christ are allowed to do so with no revenge.

Now, is a Muslim submitted to Allah and Islam because he loves Allah? NO!

He dare not leave Islam, and he is loyal purely out of fear.

The true Bible believer is loyal to Jesus Christ purely out of love. 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. (John 4:19) We love him, because he first loved us.

This concept is 100% alien to Islam -- There is no love in Islam -- Only fear and hate.

Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-09-30 12:24|| 2006-09-30 12:24|| Front Page Top

#10 For anyone who's interested in the differences between Jesus and Mo, there's this:

http://members.aol.com/allahislam/part3.html

The whole thing is interesting too:
http://members.aol.com/allahislam/contents.html

Anyone keen on religion care to comment what they think of this? It kinda makes sense, but then again, I'm not up to speed on religion studies.

Posted by Hupailet Unaiger3912 2006-09-30 12:54|| 2006-09-30 12:54|| Front Page Top

#11 Biggest difference: Jesus lives; Mo dirtnap

Posted by Captain America 2006-09-30 13:02|| 2006-09-30 13:02|| Front Page Top

#12 Excerpt:

"Mohammed tries to persuade us that the Koran is just as scriptural as the Torah and the Gospels. He tries to make it seem as if the Torah and the Gospels and the Koran are equal parts in a threefold plan of divine revelation to humankind. Why? The most effective way to win individuals over to your way of thinking is to, first, tell them what they already believe is true (so you don't alienate them) and, second, slowly persuade them that what they don't yet know or understand can be provided for, or answered by, your doctrines: the wolf-in-shepherd's-clothing approach, so to speak."

"Jesus instructed us to love our enemies, to revile not when reviled, to forgive those who despitefully use us, and to refrain from judgment (the condemnation of our peers). Hear what Mohammed had to say on those topics:

"O believers, prescribed for you is retaliation, touching the slain; freeman for freeman, slave for slave, female for female . . . In retaliation there is life for you, men possessed of minds; haply you will be godfearing."Surah II (35)

"And fight in the way of God with those who fight with you. . . . And slay them wherever you come upon them, and expel them from where they expelled you; [your own] persecution is more grievous than slaying [others]."Surah II (36)

"Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you . . . "Surah II (37)

"Prescribed for you is fighting, though it be hateful to you."Surah II (38)

" . . . take not to yourselves friends of them [the disbelievers] until they emigrate in the way of God; then, if they turn their backs, take them, and slay them wherever you find them . . . "Surah IV (39)

"This is the recompense of those who fight against God and His Messenger, and hasten about the earth, to do corruption there: they shall be slaughtered, or crucified, or their hands and feet shall alternately be struck off, or they shall be banished from the land."Surah V (40)

"Fight them [the unbelievers], till there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely."Surah VIII (41)

"It is not for any Prophet to have prisoners until he make wide slaughter in the land."Surah III (42)

"Slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them, and confine them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush."Surah IX (43)

"Fight those who believe not in God and the Last Day."Surah IX (44)

"And fight the unbelievers totally even as they fight you totally; and know that God is with the godfearing."Surah IX (45)

"O believers, fight the unbelievers who are near to you, and let them find in you a harshness; and know that God is with the Godfearing."Surah IX (46)

"The recompense of evil is evil the like of it . . . "Surah XLII (47)

"When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then, when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds; then set them free, either by grace or ransom, till the war lays down its loads."Surah XLVII (48)

"Mohammed is the Messenger of God, and those who are with him are hard against the unbelievers, merciful one to another."Surah XLVIII (49)

"Thou shalt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day who are loving to anyone who opposes God and His Messenger."Surah LVIII (50)

"O Prophet, struggle with the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be thou harsh with them."
Surah LXVI (51)

"It should be clear that the literature of Mohammed is hateful, encouraging people to live both in fear and by the sword in judgment of one another. Compare the preceding quotations with the following instructions given by the Christ:

"But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which despitefully use you. And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloke forbid not to take thy coat also. Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again. And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye: for sinners also love those that love them. And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do the same. And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged, condemn not, and ye shall not be comdemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete, withal it shall be measured to you again."Luke 6:27-38

"Having compared the previous passage with those immediately preceding it, which one of the two --- Jesus or Mohammed --- do you think is the true witness of the loving Father?"

"Considering what is written in the Koran, there should be little wonder why Bibles are not allowed into countries over which the banner of Islam flies. The people of those nations might be able to read:

[...]

Posted by Hupailet Unaiger3912 2006-09-30 13:09|| 2006-09-30 13:09|| Front Page Top

#13 hmmmm I don't know mcsegeek1...perhaps if you came up with a few more examples :-)

jeebus! nice researching....

Posted by Frank G 2006-09-30 13:51|| 2006-09-30 13:51|| Front Page Top

#14 Hey, don't I get an honourable mention?!? ;-) It was a team effort.

Posted by Hupailet Unaiger3912 2006-09-30 14:09|| 2006-09-30 14:09|| Front Page Top

#15 of course - my apology :-)

Posted by Frank G 2006-09-30 14:28|| 2006-09-30 14:28|| Front Page Top

#16 HU, I found that to be very interesting, thanks. The writing re: Ishamel and Issac gave me pause.

Posted by anon 2006-09-30 14:30|| 2006-09-30 14:30|| Front Page Top

#17 Isaac

Posted by anon 2006-09-30 14:31|| 2006-09-30 14:31|| Front Page Top

#18
"Have you ever read the Koran? It is a book that has influenced almost as many people as the Bible. It is a book that has contributed to the shaping of world history. And it is a book that will greatly influence the events of these last days. If you haven't, I recommend that you read it, but only after having first read the Bible. Why? Though you may be able to spot the absurdities in the Koran you will not be able to see through the subtle elements of its powerful deception unless you first come to know and understand real scripture. Sure, it may take a while before you finish both, but don't you think you owe it to your own soul to at least look for the truth?

The whole premise is folly, you say? Then, consider this: If what I was writing supposedly unmasked the deceptions and myths of the Bible, how many people would really care? And of those who would care, how many Christian believers would take it upon themselves to physically silence me? Though some might feel wounded and perhaps tempted to do me hurt, I believe that I would be able to pass through a crowd of them without harm. Could I say the same about Moslem believers if what I wrote defamed the Koran? No, it is dangerous to speak out against them, their society, their prophet, and their so-called holy book. Few adherents of Islam tolerate any ideas other than their own, let alone dissent. Magnanimity is just not a principle by which they operate.

In the spirit of ecumenism and religious tolerance or just not caring, many today have adopted a live-and-let-live attitude about spiritual beliefs. I, too, believe that there should be a freedom of choice concerning the way we define the Creator to ourselves and the way we worship. However, it behooves us to be aware that not everyone shares such democratic ideals. In fact, very few do. There are those who would rob us of that right.

Until recently, Christians were most concerned about the threat that Communism posed to religious freedom. To them I say, you won't know real religious persecution until the Mohammedans have arrived. Mohammedans are opposed to religions other than their own because they feel they are a blasphemy to Allah --- a blasphemy which is to be punishable by them, at that."

This was supposedly written in 1981 and 1989, that is, pre-9/11. I can vouche that this has been on the web since before 9/11, c. 1999. I came upon it when the topic of concern to me was "the end times", specifically. I was reading the Revelations at the time. Considering recent events and those of the last few years, it seems someone had a clue even way back then. Interesting.

Posted by Hupailet Unaiger3912 2006-09-30 15:09|| 2006-09-30 15:09|| Front Page Top

#19 Did Jesus actually write anything down? I mean, the Gospels are actually written by others, saying what they thought they heard Jesus say. OK, there's the divine inspiration thing, but it's still not Jesus' actual handwriting. And that might be a good thing.

Contrast: If there were a movement to to reform Islam, it would run up against the actual words of Mohammed (BIH). Any attempt at interpretation will be yanked up on a short leash. He actually wrote the vicious and evil thoughts in the Koran. You can't say that some third party misunderstood him.

Posted by Jackal">Jackal 2006-09-30 16:14|| http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]">[http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2006-09-30 16:14|| Front Page Top

#20 #4 -- beheading is a religious practice only promoted by "barbaric Baptists" AFAIK.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2006-09-30 16:28|| 2006-09-30 16:28|| Front Page Top

#21 That's true Jackal.

We are going to have to find a way out of this mess. I really don't know what the answer is going to be. As America wakes up and gets a clue, I can only wonder what the actual collision is going to be like. I'm someone who believes that the majority of Muslim people would gladly just join the western world if only their mosques would lead the way. But it is becoming clear that that isn't gonna happen. So where does that leave us? I don't buy the idea that we are going to suddenly turn on the Muslim women and kiddies and I pray to God that we don't.

I think that the only logical next step that we can take will be loyalty oaths and deportations of those who incite. We need to make enticement to violence a crime- but that's going to really cause some problems since the Koran is an encitement to violence. But at the very least we can start enforcing the deportment and closure of individuals and mosques that incite jihad. And anyone who trains abroad in a foreign army can be denied return.

It is too bad that the stupid liberals will fight all of these common sense ideas because they could possibly defuse the bloody blow of the head on collision of East meets West.

Posted by anon 2006-09-30 16:46|| 2006-09-30 16:46|| Front Page Top

#22 Jackal I think you're mistaken. Mo was illiterate. He could neither read or write. Big oral tradition in ancient Araby. Mo spoke his BS and his words were passed on and on down the line until someone came along to record them. In that sense there is a parallel between the New Testament and the koran. If anybody is telling you Mo wrote down the words as they were "revealed" to him, then someone is pulling your leg.

Posted by Mark Z 2006-09-30 16:46|| 2006-09-30 16:46|| Front Page Top

#23 heh - I guess I should have clarified I only knew that was correct about Jesus.

There were 12 apostles who Jesus sent out to teach the gospel: Simon Peter, Andrew, John, James (john's brother), Philip Bartholomew, Thomas, Matthew, James Thaddaeus, James, Thaddaeus, Simon, and Judas. Matthias was chosen in place of Judas. It is also common to speak of the founder of the Christian Church in a country as the apostle of the country - Gregor of Armenia, Boniface of the Germans, Augustine of the English, St. Patrick of Ireland, Columba of the Scots Cuthbert of Northumbria and St. Denis of France.

I always got confused between disciples and apostles. Apostles can be called disciples but apostles generally refer to these twelve. The word "apostle" is the closest approximation to the Aramaic word "seliah," which referred to "those who were despatched from the mother city by the rulers of the race on any foreign mission, especially such as were charged with collecting the tribute paid

Posted by anon 2006-09-30 18:41|| 2006-09-30 18:41|| Front Page Top

#24 Mo was illiterate. He could neither read or write. Big oral tradition in ancient Araby.

Yes, there was a strong oral tradition in and around Mecca. 'Quran' as a word is usually traced to the Arabic root meaning 'to recite', with a grammatical form that implies 'with diligence, devotion'.

That said, there is a significant group of western scholars who dispute the assumption that Mohammed was illiterate. Some degree of literacy was common in Mecca before and during his time. As the Arab Muslims conquered large territories quickly, however, the intricacies of the language were blurred down just as the New Testament koine Greek is a vast simplification of classical Greek, with many borrowed words. Hence interpretation of the text (which remained in the old language) became increasingly important. The desert tribes who preserved much of the old forms of the language played an important role as those who were familiar only with the newer form of the language tried to interpret/translate the old text. One wonders how much that led to the Wahabism of today.

Posted by MDiv 2006-09-30 18:52|| 2006-09-30 18:52|| Front Page Top

#25 oops - I'm just making a mess of this

1. Simon Peter
2. Andrew
3. James
4. John
5. Philip
6. Bartholomew
7. Thomas
8. Matthew
9. James
10. Thaddaeus
11. Simon (the zealot)
12. Judias

13. Matthias (who was chosen by the other 11 to replace Judas.

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the Gospels - or the 4 New Testament books that present the life of Christ.

Posted by anon 2006-09-30 18:53|| 2006-09-30 18:53|| Front Page Top

#26 sorry MDiv - that's interesting. Didn't mean to bump you down :-(

Posted by anon 2006-09-30 18:55|| 2006-09-30 18:55|| Front Page Top

23:59 Secret Master
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