Article

2008-09-19 Home Front: Politix

Joe Biden loses Barack Obama the Catholic vote

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by GolfBravoUSMC 2008-09-19 13:56|| || Front Page|| [10325 views ] Top

#1 He can respectfully disagree with the church's position. A lot of Catholics do. But he simply cannot call himself a "good Catholic" and support a guy who voted repeatedly against the Born Alive bill.

Posted by Cornsilk Blondie 2008-09-19 14:05|| 2008-09-19 14:05|| Front Page Top

#2 Is it me or does Joe look like he's aging every day? It's almost like the deal with Satan is off.

Posted by tu3031 2008-09-19 14:26|| 2008-09-19 14:26|| Front Page Top

#3 Maybe someone trashed his portrait. I hate it when that happens ____D.Grey

Posted by Hurd Hatfield 2008-09-19 14:44|| 2008-09-19 14:44|| Front Page Top

#4 This is the guy that equates paying taxes with patriotism. So Joe, how about all our soldiers fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan? They don't make much money and therefore don't pay that much in taxes. Would you question their patriotism? Talk about foot-in-mouth disease.

Posted by JohnQC 2008-09-19 14:44|| 2008-09-19 14:44|| Front Page Top

#5 the bishops said he was theologically wrong (i aint a catholic, not my thing to say)

they didnt tell Catholics not to vote for him, did they?

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-09-19 15:28|| 2008-09-19 15:28|| Front Page Top

#6 True as far as it goes, 'Hawk. However, the Church has also said (for a long time, since the middle '70s at least) that in voting, a Catholic has to take into account the morality of a candidate's positions. The Church teaches that abortion is always and everywhere a grave moral wrong. A Catholic cannot therefore vote for a candidate who supports the "peculiar institution" (as Biden and Pelosi do)--absent some extraordinary circumstances--and remain faithful to Church teaching.

Posted by Mike 2008-09-19 15:54|| 2008-09-19 15:54|| Front Page Top

#7 LH, I have never heard a bishop tell anyone to vote or not vote for a candidate.

They will issue a statement from time to time saying "Candidate X is not in accord with Catholic values and here's why". It's generally only done when a candidate makes an issue of his/her Catholicism in order to get more votes.

Each diocese generally has one newspaper, and issuing the bishop's statement is pretty much as close as they get to endorsing a candidate.

Now when it comes to things like propositions, amendments, etc., they may issue a yay or nay, but it's pretty predictable what they would support (restrictions on abortion), and what they wouldn't (taxes on church or synagogue property).

Posted by Cornsilk Blondie 2008-09-19 15:57|| 2008-09-19 15:57|| Front Page Top

#8 This disagreement is between the politicians and their church.

As long as it stays as Cornsilk Blondie so eloquently put it,

They will issue a statement from time to time saying "Candidate X is not in accord with Catholic values and here's why". It's generally only done when a candidate makes an issue of his/her Catholicism in order to get more votes.

that's fine with me. But when it comes to telling people that one

cannot therefore vote for a candidate who supports...and remain faithful to Church teaching.

whatever the topic, whatever the church, a line has been crossed. That line has served our country and its many churches well. I am glad it has not been crossed recently by any of the major denominations and rue the exceptions.

I hope all Americans vote for the candidate they believe best fitted for office, informed by many factors including their church, but under orders or compulsion from none of them.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-09-19 16:13|| 2008-09-19 16:13|| Front Page Top

#9 Excuse me, Nimble, are you saying that the Church cannot urge its own doctrines upon its own congregants? 'Cause I don't see where that crosses any "line of separation" anywhere, other than the imaginary line the Left is trying to draw to keep believers out of the public square.

Nancy Pelosi is free to be a Catholic or not a Catholic. She is free to support abortion, infanticide, euthenasia, sodomy, and a whole lot of other things the Church teaches (in accord with several thousand years of Judeao-Christian Sacred Tradition) are morally wrong. If she misrepresents the substance of that teaching, the Church is free to correct her. I think we're all agreed on thst.

The Church teaches that abortion is always and everywhere a grave moral wrong. The Church teaches that if I cooperate in the performance of an abortion, I have committed a mortal sin and effectively excommunicated myself. If I vote for a candidate who promotes the practice of abortion--by, say, funding it with tax money--I am doing something morally dodgy at best.

The Church is supposed to remind me of this. As a matter of moral law, as well as U.S. Constitutional law, I get to decide how to vote. If I vote "wrong," the consequence is on my soul.

Posted by Mike 2008-09-19 16:25|| 2008-09-19 16:25|| Front Page Top

#10 That is all different from telling someone whom they must or cannot vote for.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2008-09-19 16:36|| 2008-09-19 16:36|| Front Page Top

#11 the Church has also said (for a long time, since the middle '70s at least) that in voting, a Catholic has to take into account the morality of a candidate's positions

presumably including the church's teachings on issues ranging from social justice to torture.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-09-19 16:40|| 2008-09-19 16:40|| Front Page Top

#12 That is all different from telling someone whom they must or cannot vote for.

Indeed

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-09-19 16:41|| 2008-09-19 16:41|| Front Page Top

#13 From Dictionary.com
psephologist

noun
a sociologist who studies election trends

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-09-19 16:47|| 2008-09-19 16:47|| Front Page Top

#14 Nimble, so if the Church told you you should not vote for Hitler, it would be a bad thing?

The Church is required, by its very existence to be a moral voice. And there are times where that moral voice must say things that may anger people.

We have a DUTY to speak out against evil.

And Biden is being taken to the woodshed because he is violating Canons 915 and 1359 of the Catholic Church, and also violating several parts of the Catechism of the Catholic Church (which are linked directly to scriptural passages).

Joe Biden and Barak Obama cannot be supported by an rational, fully informed Catholic with a properly formed conscience. To do so would be a sin that one would be held accountable (Assisting evil instead of resisting it). The primary problem for them both is Abortion - and the Pope and the Bishops have been quit clear that abortion and euthanasia are first and utmost issues, not "prima inter pares" with social justice and war and the death penalty. They involve defending the defenseless against DEATH. They are at the core of the first principles of the church - that being LIFE. Its non-negotiable.

I'll write more on this later, have to roll out for a few hours.

But Archbishop Chaput put it quite well:

"If we believe in the sanctity of life from conception to natural death, we need to prove that by our actions, including our political choices," the Archbishop said in one [Denver Catholic Register] column. "Anything less leads to the corruption of our integrity."

"The 'choice' in abortion always involves the choice to end the life of an unborn human being," Archbishop Chaput wrote. "For anyone who sees this fact clearly, neutrality, silence or private disapproval are not options. They are evils almost as grave as abortion itself."

"So can a Catholic in good conscience vote for a pro-choice candidate? The answer is: I can't, and I won't. But I do know some serious Catholics-people whom I admire-who may. I think their reasoning is mistaken"

"If you don't accept what the Church teaches on issues of faith and morals you can't claim to be a Catholic. I would say if you're in favor of the choice to kill babies it isn't compatible with Catholic faith."

"Abortion is a matter of human dignity and human rights," Chaput said.

He then became more blunt. "It's not just a religious principle; we're not against abortion for only religious reasons. We're against it because it detroys a human life. No one should tell us to be quiet about that any more than we were quiet about segregation. It's very important that we're active; we encourage our people to vote their conscience. That's not interfering with the government."

Posted by OldSpook 2008-09-19 17:49|| 2008-09-19 17:49|| Front Page Top