Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Mon 09/18/2006 View Sun 09/17/2006 View Sat 09/16/2006 View Fri 09/15/2006 View Thu 09/14/2006 View Wed 09/13/2006 View Tue 09/12/2006
1
2006-09-18 Olde Tyme Religion
Pope’s trip at risk as Turkey becomes less secular
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by tipper 2006-09-18 00:35|| || Front Page|| [11131 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1  the Pope’s choice of quote was a deliberate litmus test ahead of his crucial trip to Turkey, the first Muslim (and secular) state he is scheduled (perhaps) to visit. And the Turkish government fell for it by siding with the defenders of the Islamist camp and its profound religious identity.
Posted by tired and beat down 2006-09-18 01:22||   2006-09-18 01:22|| Front Page Top

#2 They harm the Pope Islam will have that holy war they so badly want. They will rejoice then right before we incinerate them from above.
Posted by Charles 2006-09-18 02:00||   2006-09-18 02:00|| Front Page Top

#3 They harm the Pope Islam will have that holy war they so badly want. They will rejoice then right before we incinerate them from above.

Wish I could share your optimism.
Posted by gromgoru 2006-09-18 05:09||   2006-09-18 05:09|| Front Page Top

#4 Sweet merciful crap, here it comes.

Turkey’s Christians are horrified by the reaction out of proportion to the Pope’s university speech.

Well they should be. Their lives probably depend upon it.

Increasingly, people are wondering whether this reaction was planned by local mass media to reignite an anti-Christian diatribe that never truly died in the last few months.

Ummmm ... yes.

Short answer; Imams take special classes in how to do this.

Long answer: American newpaper editors and primetime newscasters take special classes in how to do this.

Turkish Christians appeal to “moderate Muslims to have the courage to speak out and show, first of all, that Muslims have not lost their mind and are still capable to engage others in a rational dialogue without clashing and resorting to violence and threats like months ago over the Muhammad cartoons affair.”

Good fucking luck. I've been waiting for them to end the Thundering Silence™ over the last five damned years.

For an important Turkish public figure, who chose to remain anonymous (which says a lot about the current situation), the Pope’s speech in Regensburg was no accident. Of all the thousands of quotes the Holy Father could choose why did he have to pick the one by Manuel II Manuel II Palaiologos on the links between Islam and violence?

Ummm ... because it was true?

Is the Pontiff “an ignorant and arrogant provocateur” as the Turkish press continues to characterise him today? Or is there something more? There are in fact some who think otherwise.

Yes. We in the West call them "sentient".

As a sharp scholar and theologian, it is not possible to think that the Holy Father did not take into account that his choice of quote would not provoke an uproar in a world like ours, in this very global village, where every little word, especially by a prominent leader, is scrutinised, its resonance amplified, its meaning extrapolated and distorted by the mass media.

Don't stop short with "the mass media". Islam is doing its level best to distort beyond all recognition every morph and phoneme of the Pope's speech.

For the aforementioned anonymous Turkish public figure, the Pope’s choice of quote was a deliberate litmus test ahead of his crucial trip to Turkey, the first Muslim (and secular) state he is scheduled (perhaps) to visit. And the Turkish government fell for it by siding with the defenders of the Islamist camp and its profound religious identity.

Yes they did and I would bet dollars to doughnuts that the Pope will not back down from visiting, no matter how much this situation escalates between now and November. Much more likely will be Turkey's government prohibiting Pope Benedict's entry for the sake of some such sop as "his personal safety" or, more likely, "prevention of public unrest".

Should Turkey get cold feet over this, I can guarantee you that any further discussion of their entry into the EU will largely consist of polite or not-so-polite versions of "fuck off".

Turkey threw itself head first in the media war

Just like how a drunk dives headfirst into an empty swimming pool's deep end.

Turkish politicians didn’t pull any punches.

No, but they didn’t land any either. The scorecard makes that quite clear. Benedict in the second round by four thousand points.

In so doing though they lost a golden opportunity to demonstrate that their country was “truly” committed to the separation of state and religion, to democracy and against ideological fanaticism and political radicalism.

We already knew that.

First act in this play was the intervention by Turkey’s minister of Religious Affairs, Ali Bardakoglu, who, as if he had any authority in the matter, called for the cancellation of the apostolic visit.

Of course. The Pope’s visit might have driven whole portions of Turkey’s population into demonstrations of why they’ll be allowed into the EU somewhere around the time when our sun explodes.

Then Prime Minister Erdoðan slammed the Pope for his “ugly and inappropriate” words without looking into the overall meaning of the Pope’s speech and who failed to see that the Pope was calling for a dialogue between faith and reason against all forms of violence and preconceived ideology.

Pencil in –1,000 points on Ergodan’s score card and about +500,000 for the Pope.

Under the circumstances where was Turkey’s secularism? Where are the moderate Islamists who make Turkey so proud?

I’ll let .com field that one. If he’s not available, perhaps the crickets will provide some scathing commentary …

What is apparent is that a process is underway that is eroding the foundations of the secular state founded by Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. As the Kemalist veneer is removing the ever-present but hitherto hidden religious substratum is re-emerging.

If something so insubstantial as accreted sewage can be called a “substratum”.

For Bishop Luigi Padovese, vicar apostolic to Anatolia, “Turkish society is going through a transition; it changing from a ‘solid’ to a ‘liquid state’.

Yeah, that pretty much confirms my assessment of Turkey’s “substratum”.

Western influence—which is trickling into the country through trade, tourism, the mass media and especially the desire of much of the population and the government to join the European Union—is seen as a threat to Turkey’s highly nationalistic ethos whose advocates thought they could have democracy without pluralism

YJCMTSU!!!!!!!!!!!

at least in its ethnic and religious dimensions.

And a big “Hellllllooooooooo Islam".

Atatürk’s secularism is losing much of its original character under changing political and religious circumstances. Turkish society is reverting back to a more fanatical religiosity based that equate being Turkish with being Muslim.

If it is possible to equate “being Muslim” with “character”.

All this is fuelling tensions and raising doubts about the Turkish government’s ability to preserve the Turkish Republic’s secular, moderate and democratic character”.

If it ever existed in the first place.

This raises another question. Is there a moderate Islam that can show the world that an Islamic democracy is possible?

One word: IRAQ

Is there no better time for moderate Muslims to speak up than now?

Other than from the grave … no.

Why aren’t they distancing themselves from the sort of religious fanaticism that, like wildfire, is spreading irrationalism in response to a quote made by the Pope from some ancient source?

Oh boy, here we go. (Where’s Rob Crawford when I need him?)

A. Because the West continues to show an absence of deference to Islam.

B. Because we don’t want to.

C. Because the Palestinian statehood crisis has yet to be resolved.

D. Because our imam told us not to.

E. Because the Pope refused to make nice after his ickypoo speech.

F. Because of some or the other un-named and obscure Zionist conspiracy.

G. Because we refuse to act unless Israel releases 1,000,000 imprisoned terrorists.

H. Because you eat pork.

I. Because you own dogs.

J. Because your women don’t wear gunny sacks when out of doors.

K. Because people kiss on your television shows.

L. Because someone, somewhere, somehow faced Mecca and burped.

M. Because you refuse to cut off your uppity wimmen’s clits.

N. Because you won’t install global sharia law.

O. Because you won’t let us kill all the Joooooooooos

P. Because it’s the wrong phase of moon.

Q. Because we don’t like you, so there!

R. Because your barbecued pork ribs smell too good.

S. Because Jesus made waaaaaaaay too much sense.

T. Because we’ll kill you if you don’t admit we’re the Religion of Peace.

U. Because we get ahead by cutting off yours.

V. Because we screw what we eat before and not afterwards. (HT .com)

W. Because you don’t like us.

X. Just because

Y. Because, Because, Because.

Z. You and your little dog, too!!!

The harsh reactions by Turkish political leaders and mass media have surprised and saddened Christian authorities in Turkey. No voice trying to appease emotions has yet spoken out against this explosive and obnoxious cacophony.

This is commonly referred to as the Thundering Silence™.

Mgr Padovese himself knows that there are the great “many fair-minded people in Turkey. They should be the first to stand up against the fundamentalists, but instead they have no voice in chapter and are silent out of fear or as a result of intimidation”.

Ummm … My guess is none of the above, some of the above, all of the above. Take your pick.

Unlike his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI is no globetrotter

None of which prevented any expansion of his intellect.

… , but he must have realised the importance of his visit to Turkey.

Ummm … yes. That’s why he’ll most likely RISK HIS LIFE VISITING YOUR ISLAMIC SHITHOLE!

From the beginning of his pontificate, he stressed that ecumenical and inter-faith dialogue was one of his priorities.

So, what about his Regensburg speech? Speak up.

For this reason, if he does go to Istanbul on November 30 to meet Bartholomew I to discuss intra-Christian matters, and goes to Ankara to talk to Muslims, knowing that he is facing hard-nosed Kemalists like President Sezer and military leaders, and nationalist fringes like the Grey Wolves, he might have expected to rely on Erdoðan (who comes from the Nur or ‘light’ movement), on Gülen whose Islam espouses clemency and mercy, and on the growing number of Sufi movements.

Yet shows not the least bit of cowardice. Any of you listening?

It is from this kind of Islam that the Pope could have expected support against terrorism in all its forms

But didn’t. Just ask the crickets.

and found allies backing him in defending the principle that every life is sacred and that no intention, however, sacred, can justify and legalise actions against another human being.

Nice try. I’ll just quote John Belushi, “But noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!”

What will happen now?

Ummm … I’ll take “Burnishing the sands of Islam with stellar fire” for $1,000, Alex.

Tomorrow the Bishops’ Conference of Turkey will meet in Istanbul. Its members were supposed to discuss routine matters about the final preparations for the Pope’s visit. Instead, they will now have to decide whether the Pope’s visit to Turkey’s can go ahead in such a hostile climate.

It’d better, unless the Pope himself cancels it. I’ll cheerfully bet the farm that he won’t.

One thing is certain though.

Wait for it …

The Pope’s trip is not the only thing at risk

Allow me to introduce you to the Twin Keys of Justice”.

Turkey’s secular character is as well.

For right now, we’ll leave out your nation's potential role as “Carpark of the Bosphorus”.
Posted by Zenster 2006-09-18 05:41||   2006-09-18 05:41|| Front Page Top

#5 The man reads the book.
The man tries to live the life.
He knows his teacher faced certain death but choose his sacrifice for all of us.
He knows he may be asked to do the same thing.
He may do it for all of us.

"If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine."
Posted by Chang Cholunter4501 2006-09-18 08:47||   2006-09-18 08:47|| Front Page Top

#6 Damn, Zenster! Tell us how you really feel! :-)

Nice diatribe--and I agree 100%! A pox on this Religion of Piss™...
Posted by Dar">Dar  2006-09-18 12:24||   2006-09-18 12:24|| Front Page Top

#7 The Pope’s trip is not the only thing at risk. Turkey’s secular character is as well.

The Turkish generals who guard the Attaturk legacy are warning the Islamacist government.
Posted by lotp 2006-09-18 12:29||   2006-09-18 12:29|| Front Page Top

#8 In a bow to prudence, I suggest the Pope shitcan the trip to Turkistan, and prepare another insightful soliloquy about the Death Cult. I suggest he review all of Orianna Fallachi's recent tomes as well as more historical underpinnings about the origin of and spread of the Death Cult through the Turkistan kingdom. That would be much more helpful, and a hell of a lot safer.
Posted by SOP35/Rat 2006-09-18 13:33||   2006-09-18 13:33|| Front Page Top

#9 In a bow to prudence, I suggest the Pope shitcan the trip to Turkistan

SOP35/Rat, I beg to differ. Obviously, my life is not at stake so it's easy to rail against the Pope changing his travel plans. Moreover, I'll certainly respect the man no matter what his final decision is.

That said, it is crucial that the Pope not back off in the face of Islamic threats. This is simple extortion writ large and neither Christianity nor any other non-Islamic faith will be the better for it if Islam is not faced down at this critical juncture.

As I have mentioned elsewhere, should the Pope be harmed by a Muslim it will forever rip away Islam's mask as the Religion of Peace [spit] and irrevokably brand it as the violent and irrational death cult it is. My darker side also hopes that massive retaliation would follow even an attempt on the Pope's life, though that is probably less than likely.

I believe firmly that the Pope knows this all too well and most likely does this with the explicit intent of calling Islam's bluff. I'm sure that Turkey is absolutely petrified at the notion of becoming a pariah state should the Pope come to harm on their turf during their watch. This is why I predict that Benedict's visit will probably be prohibited for reasons of state security.
Posted by Zenster 2006-09-18 14:49||   2006-09-18 14:49|| Front Page Top

#10  In a bow to prudence, I suggest the Pope shitcan the trip to Turkistan

Somehow I suspect the thought of what has happened and might happen in Turkey crossed the Pope's mind before he gave the speech. His organization's field manual contains this injunction; "Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." Taking such a risk demonstrates strong faith in a strong God, a faith not unlike that of the martyrs of the early church. If that's the sacrifice necessary, I'd bet he's prepared to make it. For the West as well as Islam.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-09-18 15:19||   2006-09-18 15:19|| Front Page Top

#11 For the West as well as Islam.

Excellent point, NS. You can be sure that the Pope also seeks to redeem Islam's sins.
Posted by Zenster 2006-09-18 16:09||   2006-09-18 16:09|| Front Page Top

23:54 leroidavid
23:49 eltoroverde
23:47 JosephMendiola
23:44 Sherry
23:43 leroidavid
23:38 leroidavid
23:37 JosephMendiola
23:35 Zenster
23:32 Zenster
23:31 JosephMendiola
23:26 leroidavid
23:21 leroidavid
23:15 leroidavid
23:10 Zenster
23:08 Homer
23:06 Carl in N.H.
23:04 ex-lib
22:57 RD
22:48 Homer
22:39 Zenster
22:34 Zenster
22:30 tabd
22:29 Fleash Greaper4919
22:27 Fleash Greaper4919









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com