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2005-09-06 Home Front: Politix

Mayor Nagin Fables: How It Really Friggin Happened

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Posted by Captain America 2005-09-06 00:40|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 The CIA isn't going to like this.

Posted by JDB 2005-09-06 01:33|| 2005-09-06 01:33|| Front Page Top

#2 not to defend Nagin - but in his defense - but he did finally declare a mandatory evacuation order, a state of emergency and he did allow the Feds a clean chain of command, as this article confirms. Nagin may be woefully incompetent, but I'm starting to wonder if Blanco was intentionally obstructive.

Posted by 2b 2005-09-06 07:49|| 2005-09-06 07:49|| Front Page Top

#3 The mayor (and the Gubner) have much to answer for with regard to actions, or more specifically, the lack thereof. It is well known and hence the tirades, fits, and finger wagging with expletives from the Mayor. Pathetic.

Posted by MunkarKat 2005-09-06 07:58|| 2005-09-06 07:58|| Front Page Top

#4 That's where we sent people as a shelter of last resort. When that filled up, we sent them to the Convention Center. Now, you tell me what else we could have done.

Okay. I'll bite. It might have been wise to send people to a place where there was something in the way of--just thinking out loud here--PROVISIONS laid in.

Posted by eLarson 2005-09-06 08:11|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2005-09-06 08:11|| Front Page Top

#5 I was abdicating a clear chain of command, so that we could get resources flowing in the right places.

"I do not think that word means what you think it means."

Posted by eLarson 2005-09-06 08:12|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2005-09-06 08:12|| Front Page Top

#6 Provisions? Like food and water? For flood victims in a city mostly below sea level? How could anyone possibly imagine a need for that?

Bah! My advice is not to push the Fed-bashing too hard here, Mayor. Once the inevitable People's Factfinding Committee gets fired up, you may not like the facts that come out.

Posted by SteveS 2005-09-06 08:28|| 2005-09-06 08:28|| Front Page Top

#7 Nagin may be woefully incompetent, but I'm starting to wonder if Blanco was intentionally obstructive

Yup. Nagin said, turn control over to the Feds. The guv wasn't about to do that ... she wanted all the fed goodies but wouldn't let them control them AND she wanted the Guard to keep order but wouldn't declare martial law OR turn them over to federal control so that the Army could join in and order restored.

Meanwhile, she was busy setting up a rescue/rehab fund outside of the federal structures and hired Clinton's guy to come advise her.

She is scheming, grasping AND incompetant.

Posted by lotp 2005-09-06 08:38|| 2005-09-06 08:38|| Front Page Top

#8 Nagin is clearly out of his element and so is the governor. I really don't understand how they could have been so unprepared.
Let's review: city below river/lake/sea level - check; history of hurricanes - check; sufficient emergency plans - HUH?

Posted by Spot">Spot 2005-09-06 08:48|| 2005-09-06 08:48|| Front Page Top

#9 She is scheming, grasping AND incompetant

In other words a Democratic politician. Its all about POWER.

Posted by Snaise Slaling6562 2005-09-06 08:48|| 2005-09-06 08:48|| Front Page Top

#10 Now, you tell me what else we could have done.

uh, the school busses, the transit busses, trains, all of the above?

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-06 09:01|| 2005-09-06 09:01|| Front Page Top

#11 It is quite an indictment of local democratic administration. That fact won't change the minds of all too many voters though since the obligatory blame game story gets lapped up like mother's milk among the faithful of the local democratic machine.

Posted by MunkarKat 2005-09-06 09:09|| 2005-09-06 09:09|| Front Page Top

#12 And this was after I called him on the telephone two days earlier. ... They both shook -- I don't know the exact date. They both shook their head and said yes. I said, 'Great.' I said, 'Everybody in this room is getting ready to leave.'

Did he the get them in this room and then called him on the phone?

Posted by CrazyFool 2005-09-06 09:16|| 2005-09-06 09:16|| Front Page Top

#13 [Gov. Blanco] is scheming, grasping AND incompetant.

Yeah, and that crying thing really worked well too.

Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious 2005-09-06 09:19|| 2005-09-06 09:19|| Front Page Top

#14 Best Mayor Ever.

Posted by Chris W. 2005-09-06 09:31|| 2005-09-06 09:31|| Front Page Top

#15 Nagin - The Anti-Giuliani.

Posted by eLarson 2005-09-06 09:33|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com] 2005-09-06 09:33|| Front Page Top

#16 Blanco is still playing games. She must be angling for the #2 spot with Hillary.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-06 09:36|| 2005-09-06 09:36|| Front Page Top

#17 Fox & Friends asked the Gov the tougher questions this morning. She danced around and gave alot of non-answers, but I'm glad the questions were asked.

Posted by Chris W. 2005-09-06 09:42|| 2005-09-06 09:42|| Front Page Top

#18 'Mr. President, Madam Governor, you two need to get together on the same page, because of the lack of coordination, people are dying in my city.'

Your problem. My city. F*cking Democrat.

Posted by BH 2005-09-06 10:23|| 2005-09-06 10:23|| Front Page Top

#19 Just a question to the crowd. Anyone have a nominee for a multigenerational partronage-corruption laden city [half-mil or larger in size] government that has been run by Republicans? The odds that a city of any significant size so deep in corruption would be able to address a major natural disaster? IIRC, a Chicago snow storm ousted even their old line in the post Sr. Daley period.

Posted by Snaise Slaling6562 2005-09-06 10:33|| 2005-09-06 10:33|| Front Page Top

#20 I really thought that the Feds were to blame at first, but looking back I can see the missteps that occurred at the City and State level. Could the feds have done a better job? Perhaps, but nobody can claim to have the cataclysmic guide to disaster. Also, if they want the Feds to be in charge of everything why even have a City or State government?

Posted by Cyber Sarge">Cyber Sarge 2005-09-06 10:36|| 2005-09-06 10:36|| Front Page Top

#21 Hilary is in play here.

In the arena of public perception, Hilary and the Dems have been working hard to discredit the President's handling of the war in Iraq. But it hasn't been all that successful. The last thing she wants is for the President to be seen as strong and competent regarding this disaster, and for the Dems and a woman governor, no less, to be seen as incompentent, as that would hurt her chances in the presidential race (i.e. guilt by association).

Calls are being made behind the scenes by the Hilary camp---so Gov Blanco takes orders from Hilary NOT to turn control over to the Feds under any circumstances. Then, out of nowhere and against all precedent, a former Clinton offcial shows up to "handle" the emergency.

Meanwhile, Hilary (and her minions) make calls to the media to "spin" the story as a failure on the part of the Feds, and Hilary herself heads up an investigation of federal (not state) performance regarding Hurricane Katrina.

End goal: Blame Bush / Deflect criticism away from a female, Dem leader.

They will hang Nagin out to dry if they can. Nagin wasn't the problem here.

Note: Hilary doesn't care about anything but Hilary, and the people of New Orleans are but a tool for her to attempt to build her own public perception as a leader. "Oh . . . if only Hilary had been here, this never would have happened."

Posted by ex-lib 2005-09-06 10:37|| 2005-09-06 10:37|| Front Page Top

#22 if only Hilary had been here, this never would have happened.

I think the appropriate response is: If Bobby Jindal had been here, this wouldn't have happened.

Posted by Jackal">Jackal 2005-09-06 10:49|| home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html]">[home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2005-09-06 10:49|| Front Page Top

#23 Wow - lotp / ex-lib. You guys have zoomed in on the Gov's motives and failure. The cat-cries (tearful strains) we hear are Gov Blanco being played (badly) like a flood-soaked fiddle. Sigh. Incredible partisan morons.

Blanco's ruined and it bought Hillary zip. Hell, it will be uphill, even with massive MSM collusion, to make anyone in the Dhimmi hierarchy look good - because they're either incompetent or irrelevant - the adults are in charge, now. Mayor Nugget's just the Town Fool / comic relief.

That people suffered while these games were afoot is where Rove & Co's press focus should be - showing them as the craven cretins they are... assuming anyone will publish it.

The congressional "investigation" will be another 9/11 Commission Spinfest - only this time Bush should naturally assume the worst and not allow it to be packed it with RINOs, Dhimmi BDS Moonbats, and Clintonian Camelot II refugees. Make Honore the Pub Chairman and (good) shit will happen, lol.

Posted by .com 2005-09-06 11:03|| 2005-09-06 11:03|| Front Page Top

#24 A couple more thoughts . . .

You can call me a conspiratorialist (if you really, really want to), but has anybody else wondered WHY the Lousiana State Emergency plans weren't activated AND the National Guard wasn't on standby, AND all the warnings disregarded, AND Federal help/involvement denied for so long--in the face of a category 5 storm, in a state totally familiar with the effects of hurricances, surrounded by other states totally familiar with hurricanes? That's an awful lot of gross incompetence, even for Louisiana. Not exactly inconceivable--just a tad bit improbable. Especially considering the fact that warnings were being called in from so many sources other than the White House.

But it's really not that much of a stretch to surmise that Hilary was controlling actions early on, and was all too eager and willing to sacrifice whatever would have, or could have been lost in the hurricane (she may or may not have underestimated the damage), for the chance to make Bush look bad, and the Dems (i.e. herself) look good. Would it really surprise anyone if she were planning behind the scenes for Louisiana to do exactly NOTHING, then float the perception that Louisiana did what they could but was caught "off guard," then call in the Feds, then call bloody murder? (Like she doesn't now it takes at least 72 hours to mobilize efforts/manpower?) Would a po-dunk, female Lousiana governor EVER go against commands from HIlary-Central? No way.

My guess is that the Dems will first try to hang the mayor out to dry (then will probably leave him alone because it won't work that well) then will go after the Gov if she breaks ranks and/or spills the beans. Wouldn't be surprised if someone doesn't have a "nice talk" with Blanco, informing her that going to jail is a better outcome than the outcomes have been for other whistle-blowers against the Clintons, as the "investigation" begins to uncover the underpinnings of this travesty. And as usual, the Clintons will skate free of it all.

Follow the money . . . in this case, the political capital (to be won or lost). At all costs, Hilary could not afford another 9-11 "victory" for Bush and the Republicans.

Posted by ex-lib 2005-09-06 12:05|| 2005-09-06 12:05|| Front Page Top

#25 This blog seems to have a great summation. Some tidbits:

...On June 3, 2004 an IEM Team to Develop Catastrophic Hurricane Disaster Plan for New Orleans & Southeast Louisiana involved James Lee Witt Associates. Make note of that name, because we will see James Lee Witt later...

... the New Orleans school system owns 205 buses, and elsewhere we learned there were 364 buses owned by the New Orleans public transit..

The mayor called the [evacuation] order unprecedented and said anyone who could leave the city should. He exempted hotels from the evacuation order because airlines had already cancelled all flights...

On August 26, the Governor declared a State of Emergency... On August 28, she sent a letter to George Bush requesting a declaration of a major disaster, which George Bush did on 8/29..She also said that she had directed execution of the State Emergency Plan. Which has two references to FEMA:

1. Alert FEMA of the situation and advise that the State may need Federal assistance.
2. Request FEMA send representatives to coordinate and prepare for possible deployment of the Advance Emergency Response Team.

... she asked for Hazard Mitigation for eligible applicants that have a FEMA Approved Local Hazard Mitigation Plan, and asked for some more monetary funding, and help with debris removal. She did not authorize active duty military, reserves, or National Guard from other states.

She issued a number of executive orders which recognize that "under the provisions of Louisiana Homeland Security and Emergency Assistance and Disaster Act, and R.S. 29:724 in particular, the governor (not the President) is responsible for meeting the dangers to the state and people presented by emergencies or disasters" ... None of which authorizes active duty military, reserves, or National Guard from other states.

On 9/2 she said she "previously requested significant federal support to include: an additional 40,000 troops; trailers of water, ice and food; commercial buses; base camps; staging areas; amphibious personnel carriers; deployable morgues; urban search and rescue teams; airlift; temporary housing; and communications systems."... ...in this letter she did request the return of her National Guard that are in Iraq (which obviously would take some amount of time)... she did request a number of other items, which arrived the same day.

WaPo reported on 9/3 that Shortly before midnight Friday, the Bush administration sent her a proposed legal memorandum asking her to request a federal takeover of the evacuation of New Orleans, a source within the state's emergency operations center said Saturday.

The administration sought unified control over all local police and state National Guard units reporting to the governor. Louisiana officials rejected the request after talks throughout the night, concerned that such a move would be comparable to a federal declaration of martial law. Some officials in the state suspected a political motive behind the request...

Louisiana did not reach out to a multi-state mutual aid compact for assistance until Wednesday, three state and federal officials said. As of Saturday, Blanco still had not declared a state of emergency...

Blanco made two moves Saturday that protected her independence from the federal government: She created a philanthropic fund for the state's victims and hired James Lee Witt, Federal Emergency Management Agency director in the Clinton administration, to advise her on the relief effort. Remember where we heard that name before?

Posted by Pappy 2005-09-06 13:07|| 2005-09-06 13:07|| Front Page Top

#26 More on the IEM/DeWitt hurricane plan.

Posted by Pappy 2005-09-06 13:20|| 2005-09-06 13:20|| Front Page Top

#27 Sooooooooooo... does IEM/DeWitt have to give the half a mill back now?

Posted by tu3031 2005-09-06 13:27|| 2005-09-06 13:27|| Front Page Top

#28 Thanks Pappy! Nice collection of information in one place.

Posted by MunkarKat 2005-09-06 13:31|| 2005-09-06 13:31|| Front Page Top

#29 I do not know the plan but I'd like to know:

How many people (not counting those who would leave in their own cars) could New Orleans have evacuated in 24 hours or in 48 hours?

Did they have hurricane proof emergency shelters ready outside the city?

I hear that New Orleans has about 200 school buses and 300 public transport buses. That's 500. Let's say that 10% don't work. That's 450.

OK. You can get 50 people in a bus (more if time is too short). Let's assume you have hurricane proof shelters 100 miles out of town, every bus could make about 5 runs or so. Probably more.

And there's AMTRAK? Planes? Require cars leaving New Orleans to take passengers if they have seats?

So I guess you would have gotten everyone out.

I know the U.S. cherishes individualism but when your city is about to be flattened, this is as good as war.

Also, you don't give people the choice to stay behind since in the end they will have to be rescued anyway. "You are on your own" may work but in the end, you will have to rescue them if you can. Point a gun at them if you must, but get them into the bus.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-09-06 16:56|| 2005-09-06 16:56|| Front Page Top

#30 TGA,
All the right questions, but NO has a unique set of challenges, including a tradition of trying to ride out hurricanes while drinking like it is Octoberfest. I can't think of a good European comparison, other than maybe Amsterdam when trying to consider how people might comply with an evacuation order.
Some ran fled immediately, some waited and then got frightened, and others chose to wait and play bad odds.
And a legitimate number couldn't leave, because they didn't have access to "quick" money or a transportion plan... It is just that the actual number of these folks was far lower than the number who stayed and could have been better responded to in lower numbers.
The bottom line disaster plan for New Orleans has always been "Don't be here" and now it is obvious that "You are on your own"

Posted by Capsu 78 2005-09-06 17:28|| 2005-09-06 17:28|| Front Page Top

#31 It's also my take that the number of people who go for the "we ride it out" was underestimated. Also the number of "underprivileged" who simply don't listen too anything anyway.

I often overestimate the knowledge of other people. I knew about that hurricane and what it meant. But I think you have a lot of people who just say: "Hurricanes. Yeah, had those before." And have another drink.

NO isn't called the Big Easy for nothing. I don't think you get that attitude in Florida.

And of course if you tell Germans: "Get out now."

They get out, now.

Posted by True German Ally 2005-09-06 17:37|| 2005-09-06 17:37|| Front Page Top

#32 You are on your own is the botom line in every natural disaster regardless of where you live. Stupid people don't prepare and then complain that government didn't take care of them. No wonder the mayor and governor are Democrat.

TGA, The government can recommend that I leave my house, but if they want to try and force me, they better remember we've got a second amendment. But if you want to live that way, and I do, then you've got to accept that people who are too dumb to follow reasonable directions from the government deserve to personally suffer the consequences withoput recriminations to the government.

The only problem I see is that the government didn't make adequate provision to use transit and school busses, maybe Amtrak or freight cars, for those who don't own cars. The idiots left them to become rusting hulks in parking lots. That was unforgivable.

Just remember New Orleans was a French colony and it shows. Thank General Wolfe and consider what the world might be like had he not prevailed on the Plains of Abraham.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-06 17:43|| 2005-09-06 17:43|| Front Page Top

#33 There were photos of 250 school buses flooded in one parking lot. Another lot had 150 buses stranded. The three largest lots had more than 500 buses stranded. They are not the only lots. The national average for 500,000 people would have 750 school busses. Not being rural, N.O. most likely has 500-750 school busses. 3-400 public transportation busses sound about right. That gives 800-1150 buses pre-hurricane.

Houston is a 6 hour drive from New Orleans, so almost two round trips could be made in a day and there are cities even closer.

Posted by ed 2005-09-06 17:43|| 2005-09-06 17:43|| Front Page Top

#34 TGA,

Interesting photo compairson here

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-06 17:47|| 2005-09-06 17:47|| Front Page Top

#35 Mrs Davis
I fully understand you. I'd still say: In such cases you shouldn't give people a choice. Because in the end they will need your help.
I think when Lower Manhattan was evacuated they didn't give people the choice to stay?

Posted by True German Ally 2005-09-06 17:48|| 2005-09-06 17:48|| Front Page Top

#36 TGA,

Virtually no one lives in lower Manhattan. Forcing people to leave work after seeing two giant towers fall under enemy attack and forcing someone to leave their home and worldly posessions for a threat that may not appear are two different things. The problem with these hurricanes is how many false positives they have for each true positive. The authorities start to look like the little boy who cried wolf. And if you leave your home, while the storm may or may not come, the looters always do.

I left California because I can see NO happening there easily after the Big One and I was just too old to rebuild if I survived.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-06 17:54|| 2005-09-06 17:54|| Front Page Top

#37 It's not a question of individualism.

The NOPD doesn't seem to be trusted by the majority of New Orleans' population of either race, and rightly so. Part of the reason you have people staying behind in the first place is fear of looters, and I think this would have made the situation worse.

TGA: they could have evacuated people to (for instance) Baton Rouge (about an hour and a half away if the interstates weren't crowded, which they were) and Lafayette (three hours away under the same conditions.) I'm sure you could have found enough volunteers to be evacuated away to cut the number of evacuees at the Superdome substantially, thus ensuring that the food/water/sewerage facilities there would have lasted longer.

Now if the interstate is bogged down you have a cutoff as to when you can send busses out because you don't want to be stuck in traffic on the Bonne Carre Spillway or the I-10 twin-spans if a Cat 4 hurricane's going to come through there. (This was another fear of the people who didn't evacuate, IMHO. It would scare the hell out of me. BTW, the twin spans going NE out of the city are gone, more or less).

That's another reason why you HAVE to start the evacuation more than 24 hours before the storm; most of the ways out of New Orleans go over causeways of one sort or another and the traffic can slow to a crawl if they get overloaded.

Oh, finally: You might want to consider Hammond as an evacuation location, but I don't know what facilities they might have there. Going farther out of the area there's some national guard facilities in Lafayette and Alexandria (probably five hours out of New Orleans on a good day) that might be usable for that purpose as well. The 256th is in the process of coming home from Iraq, but the 225th (about a brigade's worth of combat engineers) and its equipment is still in state. Of course how much of that is in the facilities at the time the storm hits and how much in transit at the time is a good question. (See iraqnow.blogspot.com for the details of Florida's NG groups' disaster relief logistics efforts in the past).

Finally, say you make one round trip and one one-way trip with the busses before the storm hits; you've moved (pessimistically speaking) 450*40*2=36,000 people and the busses are now out of the city when the storm hits and can go back in (probably through Gretna or something, which seems to be a usable route) and make another trip, rather than sitting there with water in their engine blocks.

For that matter, the busses could have been moved out of Mid-City and been in better shape once the weather cleared to still move people out. They could have even tried moving them after the levee broke but before the waters innundated them.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-09-06 17:55|| 2005-09-06 17:55|| Front Page Top

#38 TGA,
Lower manhatten was 16 horrific blocks of ground zero that could be cordoned off 20 blocks away. Katrina is 90,000 sq miles of some of the United States most rugged coastal waterway.
On a historical note that is not quite "politically correct" I am sure, I confess to having watched too much History Channel in my lift. I have to say that compared to the "refugee struggles" suffered during the conflicts of the last century, that the particular event last we saw last week would pale in comparison to the suffering of displaced people in many parts of Europe, Asia and elsewhere during WWII. Walk out under fire or die seemed to be the theme, not "How come my ground transportaion hasn't shown up yet?"
I am sure many past refugees would have gladly swapped places in history.

Posted by Capsu 78 2005-09-06 18:05|| 2005-09-06 18:05|| Front Page Top

#39 TGA, the mechanism exists to insist people leave.

It's called 'martial law' and the governor of the state refused to allow it to be invoked because it would put a Republican in charge.

Posted by rkb 2005-09-06 19:54|| 2005-09-06 19:54|| Front Page Top

#40 Mrs D - here in Santee, east of San Diego, we faced mandatory evacuation during the fires 2 yrs ago. With all that booty available, power out, the citizens didn't loot, steal, or rape. They helped each other load vehicles and pets, they exchanged phone numbers. They were Americans. Don't put Watts or So. Central on every Californian face in a crisis....

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-09-06 20:03|| 2005-09-06 20:03|| Front Page Top

#41 rather than sitting there with water in their engine blocks.

Ummm, I'm a Mechanic, water will not hurt the engines unless they were running when covered with water.

Remove the air cleaner and dump out any water, if none, start her up.

If there's water in the air cleaner housing then take out all the spark plugs, drain and refill the oil with new, spin the engine with the starter for 30 seconds (Or so) to blow any water out the open plugholes and reinstall the plugs (Blow them off) and start her up. (Diesel is a bit harder, remove the glow plugs here, same procedure)

Fuel systems are sealed, there might be water in the gas tanks, but it's unlikely.

A team of 5 could go through the half-submerged busses and restart 80% easily, about 15-20 minutes per bus.

Any that don't start immediately leave to be cleaned out more thoroughly later.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2005-09-06 20:45|| 2005-09-06 20:45|| Front Page Top

#42 RNJ, I thought the issue was rust in the piston and rings.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-09-06 21:01|| 2005-09-06 21:01|| Front Page Top

#43 not a chance - oil/lack of air - short time period - RNJ's right...now water in the fuel, brakes and differential's are an issue, but less likely

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-09-06 21:53|| 2005-09-06 21:53|| Front Page Top

#44 Jim, you're probably right, the trucks would be fixable after a short immersion, but it would have taken less effort and people to have moved them out of the rising water to begin with (if anyone had thought to do so).

I'm relying on very fuzzy memories but I think the NO Metro bus system ran on diesel the last time I used it.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-09-06 22:53|| 2005-09-06 22:53|| Front Page Top

#45 I still think it was nuts to evacuate to the Superdome being that it was below sea level itself. For Nagin to feel he was responsible for getting the folks out that had their own cars, geez If he would have only bussed out the ones that didn't have any transportation, he could have started before the storm hit.
Also that the Superdome wasn't stocked with any essentials in preparation. Cots, Food, Water, Medical Assist where needed, etc. And staffed to help out where needed.

Posted by Jan 2005-09-07 00:01|| 2005-09-07 00:01|| Front Page Top

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