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2005-09-01 Home Front: Economy

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Posted by Steve White 2005-09-01 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11128 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Attempts to plug such holes has never been tried, acknowledged Greg Breerwood, deputy district engineer for project management for the New Orleans District. To enable water trapped inside the city to drain back into the lake, the Army Corps would have to open new breaches in the levees, he said. Once the water had lowered enough for pumps inside the city to finish the job, "those holes would then be repaired," Breerwood explained

Maybe I'm just too tired, but if the purpose of the levee was to keep the lake from flooding the city, how could you punch holes in the levee to drain the water back into the lake? If this is the caliber of the ciry engineer, no wonder they are in trouble.

Posted by RWV 2005-09-01 01:53|| 2005-09-01 01:53|| Front Page Top

#2 Maybe the new holes would be downstream?

Posted by Chris W.">Chris W. 2005-09-01 01:58|| 2005-09-01 01:58|| Front Page Top

#3 Surely we can come up with a workable solution. Thus far it sounds like the Three Stooges.

Posted by Captain America 2005-09-01 03:07|| 2005-09-01 03:07|| Front Page Top

#4 I got a solution:

Dont pump it out.

Thats the new wetlands. If its underwater now it stays that way. Take all this effort and wall off the areas that are above sealevel. Demolish all the other stuff, and instead of runnign new power. water, sewage, and road and houses in the dead zone, build it 30 miles upstream on dry elevation. Put mass transit in to serve the workers coming formthere to the city. Forbid any building on the old flood plain in the unprotected area. No fed flood insurance.

This preseves the business district, the port and the major parts of the french quarter. And puts peopel to work right away building the "New" New Orleans in a place where it wont get washed away again in 5 years, yet still cose enough to run whats left and salvagable of the old New Orleans.

Posted by Oldspook 2005-09-01 05:26|| 2005-09-01 05:26|| Front Page Top

#5 OS, your suggestion makes too much sense to have any hope of being taken seriously by the powers that be.

Posted by mac 2005-09-01 06:00|| 2005-09-01 06:00|| Front Page Top

#6 I don't know... the insurance companies will be hit hard by this, won't they? Unless this comes under the "Act of God" clause. But even so, given that the climatologists are predicting 20-40 years of rough weather, surely the insurers would be wise not to insure reconstructed properties in the worst of the flood zone. In the long term, even if the Feds were to fund replacing destroyed buildings, what value would there be if such couldn't be insured... especially as this year's hurricane season is not yet over.

Just a thought for your comments: most of those who took shelter in the stadium were too poor to flee further. They are now being shipped to Houston to be sheltered in that stadium. How many will be able to afford to go back to New Orleans to rebuild what was destroyed, vs. how many would simply make a new life in Texas?

Posted by trailing wife 2005-09-01 07:26|| 2005-09-01 07:26|| Front Page Top

#7 build it 30 miles upstream on dry elevation

As far as I can remember, you don't really reach high-and-dry land until Baton Rouge.

There's already a city there.

As for why they opened the levee to drain water -- Lake Pontchartrain connects to the ocean, and does so through a much shorter and more direct route than the Mississippi. So it's likely the lake will get to -- or is expected to get to -- a lower level faster than the river.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-09-01 07:52|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-09-01 07:52|| Front Page Top

#8 Drop Michael Moore into the breach.

Posted by Chris W. 2005-09-01 09:41|| 2005-09-01 09:41|| Front Page Top

#9 If you have ever watched a waterfront construction project, you know that the foundations need to be set in dry ground. Just like when your bike had a flat as a kid, the size of the patch had to be much larger than the size of the hole. Any patching solution will involve isolating the breeches with some type of barrier wall that can be pumped out.
All those sandbags they dropped? They will need to be moved away too.
After having a front row seat for the Bay area Quake in 89, I always felt the repair of the Bay Bridge collapse in 30 days was a shining example of American can do.
This NO levee project is perhaps a greater task and even more essential as nothing can be done until it is solved.
An additional concern I have not heard discussed (yet) by any news source is what is going to happen to all the debris? After Andrew, the regional folks in Florida permitted open burning of debris...completely unmonitored "throw it on the pile" burning that carried any toxic residues straight over the Everglades. Look at those houses sitting under water on TV and try to figure out when that stuff will be even ready to burn. Where else can it be put? Fill in the swamps? barge it out to the Gulf?
Unfortunately the MSM will be covering "What Mother Sheehan thinks..." as opposed to discussing the brutal detailed realities. Whatever the debris solution, I am sure Halliburton will profit from it (sarcasm)

Posted by Capsu 78 2005-09-01 09:45|| 2005-09-01 09:45|| Front Page Top

#10 Sorry. Forgot Lake Pontchartrain is subject to tidal flow. Punch the holes in to let the tide flow out but bbe sure to plug them before the tide turns.

Posted by RWV 2005-09-01 10:42|| 2005-09-01 10:42|| Front Page Top

#11 Just like when your bike had a flat as a kid, the size of the patch had to be much larger than the size of the hole.

Dammit! Now you tell me, that explains a lot.

Posted by Shipman 2005-09-01 11:37|| 2005-09-01 11:37|| Front Page Top

#12 Water weighs 8.43 pounds per gallon. add to the weight the fact the water was moving and you might get some idea of the problems of plugging a whole while water is pouring through it. Now that the level has equalized it should be easier as long as the Corps of Engineers can get barges to the site. Right now that's the problem.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2005-09-01 12:14|| 2005-09-01 12:14|| Front Page Top

#13 A million pounds of lime Jello mix should do the job.

Posted by ed 2005-09-01 12:19|| 2005-09-01 12:19|| Front Page Top

#14 A million pounds of lime Jello mix should do the job.

I agree.

Posted by Bill Cosby">Bill Cosby 2005-09-01 12:55|| 2005-09-01 12:55|| Front Page Top

#15 TW - I think Fed flood insurance has not been available to anyone in a known flood plain (see: New Orleans)

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-09-01 13:26|| 2005-09-01 13:26|| Front Page Top

#16 Well I know one thing for damend sure: a lot of taxmoney is goign to pour in, and I'd rthar it not be pissed down a rathole thats 10-15 feet below sea level. Find the above-sealevel areas north of old New Orleans, build the new leveees there, and work from that point. Dont pour a nickle into anything other than demolition required for safety and environment in the flooded parts of New Orleans right now.

Posted by Oldspook 2005-09-01 14:31|| 2005-09-01 14:31|| Front Page Top

#17 If you have ever watched a waterfront construction project, you know that the foundations need to be set in dry ground.If you have ever watched a waterfront construction project, you know that the foundations need to be set in dry ground.

trust me, no they don't.

Posted by Red Dog 2005-09-01 16:07|| 2005-09-01 16:07|| Front Page Top

#18 OK, Red Dog, you caught me exceeding my technical expertise! I am no engineer, but I recently stayed at a Holiday Inn Express. I was thinking of the foundations for footings on the Golden Gate Bridge, Bay Bridge etc.
They need some stable type of "non - waterworld" environment though to set the new structure and tie it into the existing berm structure, don't they?

Posted by Capsu 78 2005-09-01 16:17|| 2005-09-01 16:17|| Front Page Top

#19 Forgot Lake Pontchartrain is subject to tidal flow.

I always wondered about that "Lake" thing. Pontchartrain is connected to the gulf by a very wide passageway, and it's called a lake? Even more confounding is Lake Borgne. (I saw these names on a map when I was much younger)

Posted by Bomb-a-rama 2005-09-01 17:22|| 2005-09-01 17:22|| Front Page Top

#20 It's connected to the Gulf at the Rigoles, which isn't nearly as wide as the lake. It's also brackish water (parts of the Mississippi flow into the Lake upstream from New Orleans).

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-09-01 18:44|| 2005-09-01 18:44|| Front Page Top

#21 Capsu 78:

Depends what you mean by "foundations". For example, concrete has no problem hardening/curing in water (in fact, keeping it wet during the process helps its strength).

I stayed at that same Holiday Inn Express, so also take what I say with a grain of salt...(oh, and I watch Modern Marvels, too !)

Posted by Carl in N.H.">Carl in N.H. 2005-09-01 18:57|| 2005-09-01 18:57|| Front Page Top

#22 It's called "tremie" placement and can take place underwater or usuall in a casing, under bentonite/drillers mud. Trick is to keep the pump hose outlet buried in the concrete, not allowing it to come above it, so the positive pumping pressure pushes the water or mud up and out. As teh concrete level raises, you gradually raise the hose/pump. Concrete cures without atmosphere -it's a chemical process, not drying, to harden. Concrete 101 for today :-)

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-09-01 20:29|| 2005-09-01 20:29|| Front Page Top

#23 US 90 over the Rigolets... A fine elderly bridge, please drive no more than 25 mph and don't scream.
Hope it's still there.

Posted by Shipman 2005-09-01 21:30|| 2005-09-01 21:30|| Front Page Top

#24 excellent elderly bridge - prolly circa 1923 or so? We have one in San Diego with the arch trestles underneath, spanning a canyon in our Bankers' Hill area - First Ave over Maple Cyn - 1925...same erector-set framing....

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-09-01 21:46|| 2005-09-01 21:46|| Front Page Top

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