Article

2004-08-28 Home Front: WoT

FBI Investigating Possible Israeli Spy in Pentagon

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Posted by Seafarious 2004-08-28 11:49:59 PM|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 OK. So they're reading our mail. Are we reading their mail? I would hope we are.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-28 12:06:11 AM|| [http://diggsc.typepad.com/] 2004-08-28 12:06:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Hmmm. the fact that Lesley Stahl knows about this makes me wonder; who told her? If they havenât yet rolled them up, one would expect this to be a top, top, top, secret. Soooâ¦do o we have more than one spy? Someone had to provide the tip. Wouldnât it be weird if it was someone like wolfy himselfâ¦..???? nah. But someone had to tip off the media. Who was it???

Posted by B 2004-08-28 12:28:30 AM|| 2004-08-28 12:28:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 They have "solid evidence" and that guy is NOT arrested?

"The suspected spy has not returned repeated phone calls from CBS News."

I see. That's very unfriendly indeed.

Posted by True German Ally 2004-08-28 12:29:43 AM|| 2004-08-28 12:29:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Great, more fuel to the conspiracy lunatics throughout the Left and Middle East. :(

Posted by Laurence of the Rats 2004-08-28 12:36:49 AM|| [http://www.punictreachery.com/] 2004-08-28 12:36:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 When the Bush appointee took over in the Pentagon Inspector General's office, some taps were found. Wolfowitz might have installed them during the Reagan presidency.

The Israelis are pretty insideous. Word is that they even had a mole in the Office of Homeland Security for the State of New Jersey.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-08-28 12:40:26 AM|| 2004-08-28 12:40:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 CNN and the other dhimmi networks led with this all day, as though the Israeli threat were a front-burner issue, especially compared to Islamic subversion. The latter, in fact, is only dealt with in the context of bogus civil rights complaints and other whining from terrorist shills like CAIR.
Tonight on PBS, of all places, I saw Tucker Carlson do an excellent and very fair interview with Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith. Harris is one of the leading theoreticians of the current war, and declares flatly that it is a struggle, a showdown, between Islam and the secular west.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-08-28 12:45:31 AM|| 2004-08-28 12:45:31 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 They may be hoping that the "spy" will fall on his sword or does something stupid.
I never thought the Mossad was not spying on the US. Israel can't exist without the support of the US. They would be fools not to keep a good eye on it. They would be fools to get caught again in an election year.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-08-28 12:50:55 AM|| 2004-08-28 12:50:55 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 After Pollard, it should be no surprise that Israel is spying on the US.

And they should get no different treatment: life in prison, or execution, depending on the damage that disclosure of the information could cause.

That simple.

Israel is not on our side at times. Ask the crew of the Liberty.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-28 12:58:58 AM|| 2004-08-28 12:58:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Is this the rat in the house I speculated about last June, during the media's focussing on Abu Ghraib?

Posted by badanov 2004-08-28 1:34:38 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-08-28 1:34:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 I agree with you, #7. Even allies need to "peep" on each other to reinforce the certainty that everyone is on the same page.

However, if this allegation turns out to be true...ie. that the "mole" has gone beyond what is accepted "peeping" and actually engaged in influence peddling on Israel's behalf re: our foreign policy, then it could be a very nasty situation and it could hurt GWB's re-election hopes - that is, unless, GWB personally gave Ashcroft the thumbs up to pursue the wire taps, etc.

Neither Israel nor any other ally has the right to plant "moles" in high places to influence our policy to further their agenda. Get real. It's one thing for special interest groups to openly lobby gov't officials to influence policy-that's upfront, but it is quite a different thing all together for a another sovereign nation to surepticiously influence our country's policy so as to promote what's in its self-serving best interest.

I hope this "breaking story" by Stahl turns out to be much to do about nothing.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 1:35:35 AM|| 2004-08-28 1:35:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 OS: And they should get no different treatment: life in prison, or execution, depending on the damage that disclosure of the information could cause.

I don't think spying for a friendly country is a capital offense. The guy who sold out our agents to the Soviets wasn't executed. The Korean guy got 20 years.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-28 2:08:34 AM|| [http://diggsc.typepad.com/] 2004-08-28 2:08:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 SH: The Israelis are pretty insideous. Word is that they even had a mole in the Office of Homeland Security for the State of New Jersey.

The Governor of NJ installed his lover in a $100K a year job and then tried to cover it up. The guy failed at all his other jobs as well. Doesn't sound like a well-oiled Mossad operation at all.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-28 2:10:15 AM|| [http://diggsc.typepad.com/] 2004-08-28 2:10:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 I don't understand why Pollard is still incarcerated unless the case against him is not fully declassified. My understanding is that he gave Israel information about our GWI plans prior to our invasion of Kuwait so that our ally could protect itself.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-08-28 2:11:54 AM|| 2004-08-28 2:11:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 OS: Israel is not on our side at times. Ask the crew of the Liberty.

This has been debunked over and over again. Why bring it up? The Israelis asked if an American ship was in the area. The Pentagon said no. They assumed it was a false flag operation by the Egyptians and opened up on the ship. They stopped attacking it after they realized it really was an American ship despite earlier Pentagon denials.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-28 2:12:27 AM|| [http://diggsc.typepad.com/] 2004-08-28 2:12:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 SH,
Pollard is in prison because he abused the trust placed the US placed in him and spied against the US. That makes him a traitor in my book. He should have been executed.

Posted by ed 2004-08-28 2:18:25 AM|| 2004-08-28 2:18:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 I thought the Pentagon spy was a Muslim, with multiple aliases!
(Were there 2 spies in the Pentagon?)
And the sources for this "Israeli spy" story are all the usual Leftist MSM alphabet sources: CBS, CNN, WaPo.
Wait for the real story.
And note to above: ISRAEL is our biggest friend in the world next to Britain, Italy and Australia! (and Japan and Poland)

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 2:34:09 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 2:34:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 ISRAEL is our biggest friend in the world next to Britain, Italy and Australia! (and Japan and Poland
Israel is a good ally. I don't think I'd put Israel above the UK or Canada or Australia or more recently Italy and Poland. Israel is equal to other allies but not above them, unless you can prove otherwise.

Regardless, none of our allies should influence our foreign policy surepticiously for its best interests. Wake up, jen, and get off the rah, rah band wagon. You are an American first.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 2:44:13 AM|| 2004-08-28 2:44:13 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Actually it has NOT been debunked. If you had seen some of the things I have seen, you'd know it was deliberate. They were afraid we would tip their hand because the US intelligence system at that time leaked like a sieve to the Russians (and from there to the Arabs).

Moshe Dyan was a cold blooded son of a bitch, former Haganah member, and wsa appointed to Min.Def only a few days prior - which accounts for his rash actions - and his ability to concoct good cover stories.

The outline of the ship was nothing like that cattle-carrier Egyptian ship. They were in international waters. They were flying a brand new ensign - US Flag (I've seen it personally at the National Cryptological Museum). Israeli aircraft had patrolled close enough to wave to the crew of the ship and had been up overnight before the attack. Intercepts made public have shownthe Israeli piltos calling back the position of the (and this is a direct quote) American Ship. 7 different sorties observed the ship, with 13 total encircling flights made at close range to the ship.

This Israelis attacked unprovoked with rockets, strafing the decks. They followed this up with a NAPALM attack to set fires in the holes their rockets had punched.

Thier motor torpedo boats attacked from inside visual range put several torpedoes in the water at the unarmed ship in international waters. THey racked the decks, bridge and other areas of the superstructure with heavy machingun fire, and firing 5 torpedoes at the ship.

During the entire attack, they used barrage jammers to prevent the ship from sending out a distress signal.

This went on for over an hour and 15 minutes.

It was no mistake. It was a deliberate act, and one that the politicians at the time swallowed up due to the cold war. There was no mistake of the identity - they were well within visual range. They knew the ship was American, they knew its configuration was different from the Egytian ship tha they later tried to use as a coverup excuse. The Israelis LIED as surely as Kerry did.

I've worked with them - they are generally good people, top notch operators and intel people. Thats why the excuses don't wash - they simply do not screw up that badly. The "case closed" places on the net are false, and are missing some vital information that maybe some day will finally be declassified.

Isreal is vicious when it comes to their politicians. Israel will attack ANYONE it feels is on the wrong side, and that includes the USA. They are an ally of sorts, but one to be kept at arms length and a wary eye cast on them at all times. They will lie when it suits them.

This is not anti-semitism - this has nothign to do with ther religion, but everythign to do with the way their government, military and intelligence services work. Their backs are against the sea, so they made a deliberate decision to overreact on the side of preserving Israel rahter than allowing for a possiblity that thier percived survival coudl be threatened, even if it means killing allies.

I see why they do what they do, but no matter how you wrap it, it was an illegal, hostile and uncalled for act of war in international waters. They Israelis still refuse to this day to have courts martial for the miscreants involved in the slaughter - that alone tells a large part of the tale.

As for Pollard, he took an oath, and broke it - he had full knowledge of the consequences of his actions. They should have hung him, like they should have hung the whole Walker clan.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-28 3:02:16 AM|| 2004-08-28 3:02:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 I can neither confirm nor deny the below:

In James Bamford's latest book, "BODY OF SECRETS" which has a chapter on the Liberty, he discloses that NSA has audio tapes showing that the Israeli pilots were talking about seeing an American flag. The tapes were made by a NSA-operated EC-121 surveillance aircraft which was flying above the area at the time.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-28 3:12:01 AM|| 2004-08-28 3:12:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#20
No!
and they figured that all by themselves?!
Wow, we really should give them some credit.
I mean, they thought people would believe this is the work of just one person?
Huh!

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-28 3:20:10 AM|| 2004-08-28 3:20:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Right on OldSpook. This "mistake" was bebunked by PBS quite a few years ago. Every time I hear it was a mistake I think of the crap holocaust deniers spew. I put "this was a mistake" on the same intellectual level. Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining. It was no mistake. Our government lied to cover it up. Israel is not out biggest friend. Israel is our biggest target of foreign aid and military support. Israel has no use for the US other than that. As a non-self lothing "semite" who is a US citizen don't call me an anti-semite, I am a realist. My allegiance is to Jesus Christ my risen lord and savior and to the United States of America in that order, not Israel. Israel uses us in the same way we use it.

Posted by Anonymous6193 2004-08-28 3:34:29 AM|| 2004-08-28 3:34:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 More news from Bill Gertz at the Washington Times, so it's not just Lesley Stahl and MSM:
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040828-120756-8368r.htm
"Pentagon aide draws scrutiny from FBI"
by Bill Gertz

The probe is focusing on whether the senior official, who has not been identified by name, disclosed classified information related to White House policy toward Iran.
The officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the suspected mole works in the office of Douglas Feith, the undersecretary of defense for policy who is considered one of the top three officials in the Pentagon. One U.S. official said the FBI had unconfirmed information that Mr. Feith supplied information to Israel in the 1980s. However, the officials declined to provide further information citing the ongoing investigation. It could not be learned whether arrests are expected in the case. But a third official, also speaking anonymously, said an arrest could come as early as next week.
Bush administration officials have said tensions are rising between Israel and Iran and there are concerns that Israel may conduct a military strike on Iran's Bushehr nuclear reactor, which is being built with Russian assistance, but which has not been supplied with nuclear fuel.
One official said the suspected Pentagon spy supplied Israel with a draft presidential directive relating to U.S. policy toward Iran.
Critics of Mr. Feith have said that he and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz are pro-Israel "neoconservatives" who sway U.S. policy, including policy on Iraq, favoring Israel.
Supporters of Mr. Feith and Mr. Wolfowitz have dismissed the criticism as anti-Semitic.
Officials said Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld has been notified about the investigation. The Pollard case was considered a major counterintelligence breakthrough for the FBI in 1985, which had been seeing indications of Israeli intelligence gathering for years but had been limited from taking action.
The Israeli intelligence services have worked closely with the CIA and other U.S. intelligence agencies for decades and have provided valuable information on international terrorism. However, the Pollard case led to temporary disruption in U.S.-Israeli intelligence sharing.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 3:42:35 AM|| 2004-08-28 3:42:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 ZF, I was kidding about Cipel.

OS, Islamic fanatics have seemed to have been on a mission to drive Israel and the US together since the Beruit bombing. Our suport of Nasser probably looked to the Israelis about the same as our support of Sharon looks to Hamas today.

I wonder if our reluctance to kill for expeditious reasons, causes morons like al-Sadr to believe that we won't kill him?

Posted by Super Hose 2004-08-28 3:45:22 AM|| 2004-08-28 3:45:22 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 rex, actually I put Bill Gertz's stuff at the WashTimes on a par with Debka file--not all that reliable...
and Canada is only just an ally, hanging on by their toenails.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 3:54:00 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 3:54:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 I put Bill Gertz's stuff at the WashTimes on a par with Debka file
Who do you trust? - "Hamil" at HealingIraq and his "brother" Tamil??? yuk, yuk...B-E-L-I-E-V-E! you go girl!

and Canada is only just an ally, hanging on by their toenails.
Yet another doofus Jenniferism. Toenails? Canada just happened to fight with us cheek to jowl in WWI, WWII, the Korean War, Canadians actually VOLUNTEERED to fight in Vietnam, Desert Storm, Kosovo War, Afghanistan, sub rosa in the Iraq War...give me an f**king break-TOENAILS my foot. Always the contrarian, never normal, that's you, jen. If it were not for the open spigot of Canadian natural gas, crude oil, at this time of war when our armed forces are using so much Saudi fuel, at the domestic level we'd be up a creek without a paddle. Not to mention Canadian water and hydro-electric power. How much foreign aid have we given Canada over the past 100 years? ZERO. Toenails my foot. Grow up.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 4:12:25 AM|| 2004-08-28 4:12:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 C'mon, rex, what has Canada done for us in recent history? Senior gov't politicians have not only blamed America for inciting Al Quaeda to attack us on 9/11, they mocked our decision to defend ourselves. Canadian gov't officials not only privately dislike our current president, those who publically insult him have not been punished for it. Canada aligned itself with France at the U.N. and elsewhere. Their FCC permits the broadcast of Al Jazeera, but not Fox News. They starve their own military of funds, depending on the US to protect them in time of need, then castigate us for being unnecessarily warlike. Ie, the entire classic panoply of anti-Americanism.

Unfortunately, in these troubled times Canada is choosing to be more of an "ally" in the mold of France, than a dependable friend to the north.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-28 6:00:23 AM|| 2004-08-28 6:00:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 If there is a spy, it wouldn't surprise me in the least, and I share the general sentiment that there ought to be severe consequences for espionage.

I have a slightly different take on the Liberty attack. There is a scenario, I beleive, where the Israeli pilots see a ship with a US flag on it and still attack, believing it to be unfriendly. I originally put this in the comments of One Hand Clapping, after this post. Unfortunately, the rest of the comments, which were quite good, seem to have vanished.

For the record, I do not beleive that any criticsm of Isreal's actions in the Liberty incident is in any way anti-semitic. And I stand open to correction in my interpretation. Anyway:

Interestingly, John PiÃ±a Craven (of _Blind Man's Bluff fame) mentions the USS Liberty as a sidelight while discussing another topic in his book _The Silent War_.

On page 140, he is talking about the covert activities of the USS Halibut:

The first scheduled Soviet missile tests that we were supposed to be ready to observe took place in February 1968. This put us on a tight schedule. Only one of our towed bodies, or "fish" -- devices towed by a ship or a sub on a wire cable -- had been completed on time. On the first day of operational test and evaluation it was launched and slid out of the launching tube into the deep blue sea. Someone had failed to secure the shackle to the towing cable. Another fish had to be transported to Pearl Harbor in time or the elaborately planned operation would have to be canceled. Carefully designed as an irrelevant piece of hardware, the replacement fish was loaded on the first ship bound for the war zone in Vietnam via Hawaii, but the precious cargo was never unloaded. Instead it was mistakenly carried to Vietnam and offloaded on a dock there with no one to call for it and no one to care. Standard, expedited, and emergency measures for its recovery were to no avail. We could not reveal the significance of the cargo to anyone -- and no one, in the midst of that war, with enough authority to retrieve it, could understand why this search would have priority over the war effort.

This was not the only time that intelligence constraints required that a mission be abandoned, sometimes with tragic consequences. One June 8, 1967, Israel launched an air attack against the USS Liberty during the Arab-Israeli Six Day War. all U.S. ships had been warned to vacate the war zone. But the intelligence ship Liberty had instructions to respond only to orders received through highly secure back-channel communications. The message sent via that channel was too slow in arriving and the Liberty was attacked with significant loss of American lives. To avoid repetition, a military officer in the Pentagon was authorized to make direct contact with the Joint Chiefs of Staff when petitioned to do so, if in his estimation immediate action at that level was justified in the interests of national security. I made that petition to try to retrieve our fish from Vietnam and was turned down. Undeterred, I contacted the most senior aide on the staff of the Joint Chiefs...

I believe Craven's context I included here is important.

When Craven says "highly secure back-channel", I believe this means absolutely 100% spoof-proof. The objective is this -- No one can issue false orders to the Liberty. At the same time, the Liberty is not a combat ship, it is an information-gatherer. This means, even in the tense Cold War environment, the Liberty will almost never have to do things immediately.

So I think it is logical to assume that the Liberty was told not to respond to any sort of radio transmission whatsoever. I would guess that the only valid orders would come from an actual emissary - a man who would be known to the CO and XO.

After the attack happened the Liberty refused offers of help from the Israeli torpedo boats, and an Israeli helicopter. The helicopter had the US Naval Attache to Israel on board. Although that would probably be a good idea in a situation as grave as this, it might be that a flesh-and-bones human is the only thing the Liberty can accept orders from.

(Of course, this is all supposition. If you see a flaw in my reasoning, fire away!)

The account goes that Israeli pilots had the ship under surveillance for some time before the attack. I am sure that is true. No, the Liberty could not have been mistaken for any other ship. But wow much ship identification had the pilots received? In one account I have read, the IAF pilots were looking only for a large white "X" painted on the deck, which the Israeli Navy used to ID their ships. And the pilots doing the recon may not have been the same ones attacking.

Imagine this - IAF hq gets a report about this ship. IAF asks US Navy - are all your ships clear? USN says: we gave the order.

Now, back to Craven's context. Craven, to get his fish back from Vietnam, had to go to - not Westmoreland - but the Joint Chiefs of Staff! That is really high up. If the Israeli air force query only went as far as USCINCNAVEUR he might not know about the secret channel Liberty must get her orders from.

So he says - no US ships nearby. While some of the Israeli pilots seemed to know something was wrong, this was 1967. They didn't have real-time video feed. So the Israeli commander is faced with a dilemma - the US says all USN ships are clear. Israeli pilots report a US ship. Is it false colors? In this case, the safe thing for the Israeli commander to do is strike.

I'm sure President Johnson did order that the board of inquiry find that it was mistaken identity, for two reasons: a) it was the truth and b) to protect the highly classified channel of communications. The details and reasons might be not entirely public, but as Craven constantly points out in his book, "All cover stories must be true."

As to the proposed motive for the attack - Bamford's explanation is weak. First, as Wretchard (great blog, BTW) points out, this thing would not be done to protect a mere division commander.

Did the POW massacre happen? Probably. Such POW shootings are not unknown, even in the US Army. Have you ever read _Citizen Soldiers_ by Stephen Ambrose?

Apathy on the part of the CO is enough to allow such individual slayings to progress to a large scale. This was certainly the case with Sharon's actions in Lebanon. He knew, but he just didn't care. It wasn't important to him. Which leads me to my second point - how much ELINT would such a massacre really produce? Do you really need to get on the radio to slaughter a few hundred unarmed men? Or just, "Hey, you, pull up that tank with a machine gun." Would the perpetrators depress the transmit key during the slaughter, or just get on with it.

Point number three - if the massacres had already been reported on Tel Aviv radio, why on earth would Israel risk everything, and I mean *everything* to cover up something that's already in the public domain?

Let us examine the matter of this independent panel. The AP article on the same event as Rev. Sensing's UPI article says the following -

>>He [Boston] said he felt compelled to "share the truth" following the publication of a recent book, "The Liberty Incident," which concluded the attack was unintentional...<<

And, later in the article: >>The panel also included a former U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia, James Akins. <<

So, Boston keeps quiet all this time, but suddenly feels a deep desire to come clean, right after this book comes out. And the panel just happens to have a former US ambassador to Saudi.

Saudi ambassador article 1

Saudi ambassador article 2

I apologize for the length of my comment.

That was the end of my comment on Sensing's site. I must say that Old Spook's explanation of Israel wanting to prevent a leaky US intel organization from tipping off the Russkies and the Arabs is more convincing on it's face than Bamford's Israel wanted to hide Sharon's POW massacre.

But, as Rev. Sensing points out in his post: Analysis of the tapes were not done until the tapes were sent to NSA headquarters. 1967 was the dark ages, technologically speaking. The tapes had to be physically transported to NSA for analysis; there was no way to uplink the data for download back in the States.

There was little or no real-time data transfer to the leaky US intel agencies. Any sensitive data sucked up by the Liberty would have taken a while to filter back to the US. So, in my opinion, the risk/reward ratio for Israel would be negligible. The sieve-like nature of US intel at the time would have been an ongoing concern for Israel, but there wouldn't have been sufficient motive for an attack for that reason.

Posted by Pete Stanley 2004-08-28 6:06:43 AM|| 2004-08-28 6:06:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 Gentle, dear, please use referents for your pronouns. I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

Posted by trailing wife 2004-08-28 6:06:44 AM|| 2004-08-28 6:06:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Pete thats interesting but I don't think that Israel would accept any excuse if we murdered members of it's armed forces. I am certain a US vessel in international waters an obviously unarmed vessel is not fair game. LBJ was a son of a bitch. He was complicit. No amount of secrecy justifies covering up and denying what happened. The problem is the US Goverment still wont own up to it's deceit.

My personal opinion of Sharon is he an assclown. If he wasn't in such a pissing contest with Yassar this crap might just be over by now. But Israel is free to elect who they want.

Posted by Anonymous6193 2004-08-28 6:35:04 AM|| 2004-08-28 6:35:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Thanks, trailing wife, for getting my back on Canada!

I still say that this is about a Muslim spy, but you're all off on the Liberty and Israel!
Israel's apologized for the incident, I believe.
Anon6193, If you're really a Christian, then you'll love God's Chosen People, the Hebrews (Israelites), too.
Be sure and check out the first part of your Bible, the Old Testament.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 6:38:01 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 6:38:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 Anon6193, you're showing your ignorance.
PM Sharon is anything but an "*ssclown."
Sharon is a brilliant strategist and Israel is finally getting someplace with the fence and is free from terror attacks.
His war with the Paleostinians is OUR war--same enemy: IslamoFacists.
And Sharon and Bush are working very closely together, too.
We stand by Israel for all the right reasons--they're a democracy, we're linked by many common citizens and we're linked by our Faith.
Now, we're linked in our fight to defeat radical Islam, too.
The Israelis are Good and goodly people; our enemy is Evil and works for the Devil.
If, as a Christian, you can can't "get this," then I don't understand why because it's just that simple.
If it turns out that they've put a spy in the Pentagon, so what?
Israel doesn't like to take chances and who can blame her?
As a person who professes faith in Christ--who was also a Jew--you should pray for our Jewish friends that they might accept Christ as the Messiah and Savior, too, instead of railing on them the way you do!

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 6:44:57 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 6:44:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 Just read the article again:
The Israelis are clearly worried about Iran--so am I.
One Iranian nuke could destroy a good part of tiny little Israel and her inhabitants.
I noted that the story mentions Feith and Wolfowitz: Oh, yes!
And so I detect another "neocon" (code for "Jew") smear.
If the Dimocrat/Kerry thing won't work for the Lying Liberal Left Mainstream Media, they can always go the Pat Buchanan route and blame the Jews again...! (Which is why MSNBC has Buchanan on the payroll.)
I am TIRED of this crap!
We're are going to have to deal with Iran and if we can help Israel and/or they can help us, super!
They probably have more than one nuke location and it will take both of us and our intelligence services to do it.
But once again, the media stirs up the war with their agenda-driven "story."

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 6:52:06 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 6:52:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 Jen You can be sure of my understanding of the Torah. I came to Christ from Judaism. Just because the bible tells us that the Israelites are G_D'S choosen ones does not mean the current goverment or even the current people of Israel are those people. I can also love them and not approve of them or their actions at times.

I am a US citizen, my family came here 4 generations ago from Germany. Israel killed my fellow countrymen. I owe no loyalty to Isreal. They can apologise to hell and back It doesn't mean I have to forgive them. They helped hide it and cover up LBJs lies. With the billions in aid and direct grants paid by us with money borrowed from our grand kids they can quit spying on us and putting moles in our government.

As far as the Liberty goes they should put on burlap and ashes everyday for a few years, throw dirt in the air and wail. Put it on TV every day. Then I'll buy their apology. I remain convinced it was an intentional attack. An attack they have yet to atone for.

Posted by Anonymous6193 2004-08-28 7:05:47 AM|| 2004-08-28 7:05:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 Well, 6193, sorry to hear it.
You're clearly going to hold a grudge until hell freezes over.
Too bad.
That was 40 years ago.
We've got a war to fight right now and Israel is helping us BIG TIME and God will reward us for standing by Israel, too.
I know they're desperately sorry for the Liberty incident and I think we all should drop it.
Holding on to bitterness and revenge over something you can't do anything about isn't healthy or good for a person in the least.
Ask God to forgive you for your bad attitude, try to see the "good" in a bad event and ask for help to move on with your life.
I've lost loved ones, too, but blaming and hating won't bring them back.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 7:17:27 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 7:17:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Jen G_D will reward me for being faithful to him and nothing else. If you can find the United States of America anywhere in your bible besides the copyrights and publishing info you have a different bible than I do. The U.S. does not play into bible prophecy.

I didn't say Israel is not an important partner. But they are not our only one. They sure as hell don't pull their own weight. The U.K. and Canada are much more important to us. The U.K. and Canada don't often cause us more trouble than they are worth or get caught spying on us.

Posted by Anonymous6193 2004-08-28 7:26:24 AM|| 2004-08-28 7:26:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 TF:

No!
and they [the government] figured that [there is an Israel spy] all by themselves?!
Wow, we really should give them some credit.
I mean, they thought people [U.S. citizens] would believe this [the leaks] is the work of just one person?
Huh!

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-28 7:30:40 AM|| 2004-08-28 7:30:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 makes no sense still - you're an idiot. If you have nothing to contribute but Arab-pablum-lies and naive dribble, don't bother.It only denigrates you more.

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-28 7:32:43 AM|| 2004-08-28 7:32:43 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 Frank G:
Whay are you so offensive?

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-28 7:36:49 AM|| 2004-08-28 7:36:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 You Liberty conspiracy theorists make absolutely no sense. As if Israel hates America and some Israeli pilots just felt like killing whatever Americans they could find.... whatever!

Pointless killing of Americans is more the Islamic modus operandi than anything that Israel is in the habit of doing. Freud had a word for the type of logical inversion of displayed here - "Projection"

For the truth about the Liberty, re-read Zhang's post #14 a dozen times and maybe you'll start to get it.

Posted by Scooter McGruder 2004-08-28 7:37:06 AM|| 2004-08-28 7:37:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#40 Frank G: Whay are you so offensive?

Actually you caught him on one of his friendlier moments. :oD

Posted by badanov 2004-08-28 8:16:25 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-08-28 8:16:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#41 heh heh

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-28 8:18:11 AM|| 2004-08-28 8:18:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#42 "The Israelis are pretty insideous. Word is that they even had a mole in the Office of Homeland Security for the State of New Jersey."

"Good evening, Agent 77. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to go to New Jersey in the USA and blow [inaudible] the governor, Jim McGreevy. This tape will self-destruct in five seconds"

Posted by Dave D. 2004-08-28 9:31:30 AM|| 2004-08-28 9:31:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#43 Agent 77, referred to as "Deep Throat" by his handlers....

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-28 9:38:01 AM|| 2004-08-28 9:38:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#44 Good evening, Agent 77. Your assignment, should you choose to accept it, is to go to New Jersey in the USA and blow [inaudible] the governor, Jim McGreevy. This tape will self-destruct in five seconds

Thanks for the morning laugh, Dave D

Posted by badanov 2004-08-28 9:39:48 AM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2004-08-28 9:39:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#45
I think I would believe Oldspooks version of the events before ZF's.

Posted by CiT 2004-08-28 9:51:39 AM|| 2004-08-28 9:51:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 Gentle, Frank is short with you because you keep going over ground that we covered here a couple years ago. Most of us started with the assumption that while terrorism happens to be practiced by some Muslim groups, it wasn't Islam that was doing it. We were, and most of us still are, well-disposed toward Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain, and other Muslim countries that are breaking out of the primitivism that Soddy Arabia and Yemen so treasure.

The evidence soon started coming in that terrorims was in fact being driven by a group of clerics and princes. Wahhabism wasn't an unpleasant but isolated sect, but a movement that was intent on, first, taking over Islam, second on taking over the entire world. Arrogant, backward, misogynistic, it represents a mirror image of the society we live in. It gets its authority from its rigid interpretation of the Koran and the Sunnah, and it's determined to bring about a war between "religions," a new crusade that it intends to win.

The west doesn't have "a" religion anymore. There are hundreds of Protestant Christian sects, several strains of Catholicism, Jews of several schools, plus dozens of other religions that range from the silly to the serious. We get by ignoring each other's religion. If I die and go to hell, it's nothing to you.

Our beef is with the political aspect of Islam, and that presents a very real threat. If my son decides to buy a turban and bow down toward Mecca five times a day, that'll be his own (bad) decision. If somebody threatens to cut his head off if he doesn't, then it was my bad decision for not trying to prevent it.

And don't even bother telling me how tolerant Islam is until we can meet in outside an Arabian cathedral for lunch to discuss it. Neither of us has to go inside -- neither of us is a Christian -- but neither of us has the right to tell somebody else what to believe.

Posted by Fred 2004-08-28 10:02:07 AM|| 2004-08-28 10:02:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 thank you, Fred - What do you want to bet that doesn't sink in?

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-28 10:06:54 AM|| 2004-08-28 10:06:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#48 Scooter, you have to remember that the US-Israeli relationship back then is not as close as it is now. Barely 10 years before the incident, the US forced Israel and the Europeans (Brits+French) to give back the Suez canal that they seized in the 1956 Sinai war.

And we were fairly friendly with the Jordanians and the Saudis, and we had the Shah of Iran in our corner as well, and prior to Kadahffy, we had a large AFB in Wheelus in Libya.

So the US did not have the strong bilateral ties that we do today. And remember that LBJ was a "power politics" kind of guy, so there the main incentive was to back Israel because Nasser had gone over to the Soviets and dragged Syria with him. Israel did not trust us - we were an ally of convenience. And they already got a lot of their armament from France (remember it was Mirage strike jets that napalmed the Liberty).

Its not the world we now live in. And there are still things unpublished that would shed light on this.

My original point was that we should realize that no matter how close an ally we regard Israel to be, they will spy on us and backstab us if they feel they have to, in order to secure the survival of their country. Anyone viewing it any other way is living in fantasy land.

The problem here is when their politicians feel that radical mesaures are the only ones that can be effective, they will use them. Fortunately, the original Haganah and Irgun terrorist leaders have basically died off, and with them the willingness to do violence aginst western partners. Also, the growth of the US-Israel relationship during the 70's and 80's has cemented things to where even considerign anythign other than "peaceful" espionage against the US by Israel, is basically unthinkable to senior leadership in Israel.

So bottom line: Yes the Israelis are an ally, but a paranoid one who doesnt fully trust us, and will spy on us at the highest levels. The British and Australians are far closer allies, and far more trustworthy.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-28 11:13:18 AM|| 2004-08-28 11:13:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#49 Guys, too many words -- you'll have Gentle up past her bedtime. Much of this history comes down to sending clear messages to friends and enemies. The message that we should be sending right now in this war on terror is that ALL spies will be promptly prosecuted and shot.

Posted by Tom 2004-08-28 11:17:59 AM|| 2004-08-28 11:17:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#50 that's fair enough, OS, and I'd add that Carter (after his presidency), Clinton, and Kerry, probably have given the Israelis concerns over the depth of US support. W is the first to withdraw diplo cover for Arafat, calling him the source of terror that's he's been all his life. Israel has to look for their interests. Right now, and for the forseeable future, they coincide with ours. I'd guess the intel/policy position may have been deliberately leaked to let Israel know our plans re: Iran (sheer conjecture, I know...) for a coordinated effort?

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-28 11:21:15 AM|| 2004-08-28 11:21:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#51
"The British and Australians are far closer allies, and far more trustworthy."

Who still, in their own way, spy on us!

CiT

Posted by CiT 2004-08-28 11:33:15 AM|| 2004-08-28 11:33:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#52 I'm with Tom if he's a spy shoot his ass regardless of nationality, creed, race or sexual orientation.

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-28 12:16:29 PM|| 2004-08-28 12:16:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Quite the thread, folks! We need to look at the so-called spy incident from inside the heads of the Israelis.

Iran is a dog running after its lunch. Israel is a rabbit running for its life. Isreal has no margin of error in its situation vis a vis its hostile neighbors. Hell, the width of the country is a fraction of the width of Chugach State Park here in Anchorage. If the Israelis make a tactical error, they could be overrun in jig time. If the Iranians slap on a Nork or someone elses plutonium bomb on a Shahab-3 missile, Israel could be a radioactively contaminated place for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnng time. They cannot affort to be wrong on basic strategic issues. So they hedge themselves by gathering intel at the highest levels. I am sure that they want to know what the mad mullahs are up to. Whether or not they have moles up that far in the food chain is speculation. But they also need to know US intentions in the worst way because it will affect what they have to do in planning for defense against Iran.

If this incident is true, then it points to the fact that we are not totally open to the Isrealis with our intel. We work closely together, but not that close. The Israelis trying to sell advanced radar to ChiComs reinforces this idea.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-28 12:21:42 PM|| 2004-08-28 12:21:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 "But they also need to know US intentions in the worst way because it will affect what they have to do in planning for defense against Iran."

They've also got to be concerned, as never before, about the outcome of our election. If Kerry wins, I suspect the Israelis will figure "We're on our own now, completely; we'll get no further support from the U.S. in dealing with the Iranian threat, and it's up to us to deal with it ourselves."

If John Kerry wins on November 2nd, don't be surprised to wake up the morning of November 3rd to find Iran has been reduced to a pool of bubbling, radioactive slag.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-08-28 12:31:17 PM|| 2004-08-28 12:31:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 Maybe not radioactive slag yet, at least at Bushehr, which has not been fueled yet. The u/g U235 concentrators could create a nasty mess with Uranium hexafluoride hanging around loose after a bombing raid.

Are the Russians holding back on supplying fuel to the Iranian Bushehr reactor because of payment issues, or are they worried about a raid after fueling causing widespread radioactive contamination. After all, most of the reactor work went for cash, and there is promise of more reactors.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-08-28 12:39:36 PM|| 2004-08-28 12:39:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 I believe the man has been outed by the Washington Post. The whole business has the smell of rotting fish, and it isn't coming from the Pentagon.
Follow your nose to CBS and the MSM.

Posted by Anonymous6197 2004-08-28 12:54:35 PM|| 2004-08-28 12:54:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 AP: The Israelis trying to sell advanced radar to ChiComs reinforces this idea.

All Israeli arms sales have to be approved by Uncle Sam. This was Clinton using the Israelis as a back-door method of providing US technology to his Chinese paymasters.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2004-08-28 1:15:07 PM|| [http://diggsc.typepad.com/] 2004-08-28 1:15:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 The problem with shooting spies: your spies (and suspected spies) will get shot too. Tricky business indeed - you've got to weigh the benefits of being able to recruit and use your own spies against the damage caused by foreign spies, whilst keeping your game as low profile as possible. It's for reasons of expediency that most uncovered spies are simply deported.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-08-28 1:33:12 PM|| 2004-08-28 1:33:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 I understand your agrument Bulldog, but how would you apply that logic to the Rosenbergs? There should also be an assurance that if you turn traitor there's an excellent chance you will hang.

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-28 1:49:35 PM|| 2004-08-28 1:49:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Thank you Fred.
What you wrote is fair enough.

Posted by Gentle 2004-08-28 1:58:32 PM|| 2004-08-28 1:58:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 For those of you who'd like to read some non-conspiritorial assessments of the Liberty Incident, try The Liberty Incident: The 1967 Israeli Attack on the U.S. Navy Spy Ship

It most likely was a "fog of war" accident.

Posted by Norman Rogers 2004-08-28 2:07:49 PM|| 2004-08-28 2:07:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Aw shit, Gentle I owe you an apology, I have mistaken you for someone even more ignorant. Unless that ae.net was a random chance.

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-28 2:08:30 PM|| 2004-08-28 2:08:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 A. I did more research on the Liberty Incident after reading Old Spook's posts because I was not sure of the details and I came across 2 sites set up by survivors of the attack. Lots of information, if you scroll down the home pages. I agree with OS - the attack was deliberate. Shame on Israel. Limp wristed apologies do not cut it because 34 Americans were killed and 171 were wounded. I think some of you are quick to rush to Israel's defense without being objective, thinking as hyphenated Americans instead of Americans.
http://www.ussliberty.org/

http://www.ussliberty.org/findings.htm

http://www.usslibertyinquiry.com/

B. As for the developing story about the mole in the Pentagon-what difference does it make if the news was first leaked to the Washington Post or CBS? Consider that the allegation might be true instead of automatically dismissing the messengers on the shop worn excuses: it's "anti-semetic" or "MSM smearing of GWB." Ye old Jewish victim card is old and tired.

Why should anyone get a free pass from criticism if it's deserving because of his/her religion? The alleged mole's name is Larry Franklin-how would anyone connect that to a Jewish name? Similarly Doug Feith-who would know to target these 2 people for being Jewish if 99% of people in the USA, myself included, would not be able to relate the Jewish faith to these names?

This ongoing paranoia about victimization due to Jewish religion is just that - paranoia.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 3:12:53 PM|| 2004-08-28 3:12:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 The Jews have no margin for error. None. One major intelligence foul up and they're toast. The day the Iranians get close to nuclear capability the Israelis have to know it, or they become victims of nuclear black mail. If I were them, I'd spy on us, too, for the express purpose of keeping up with what we know about the Iranians. We probably would tell them anyway, but they can't afford to take the slightest chance. 3 million Jews. 150 millions Arabs. Never again.

Posted by DLS 2004-08-28 3:24:04 PM|| 2004-08-28 3:24:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Allies spying on allies? "I'm shocked! Shocked!"

Posted by borgboy 2004-08-28 3:37:07 PM|| 2004-08-28 3:37:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 This ongoing paranoia about victimization due to Jewish religion is just that - paranoia.

Agreed, and it needs to be openly discussed, frequently and with passion.

I for one will be investing in Meatman Moore's next flic,

Torah! Torah! Torah!
The untold story of the 7 day war.

God: Dammit Moshe! I said promised land not promised continent!

Thanks Mr. Hendra.

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-28 4:04:24 PM|| 2004-08-28 4:04:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 I think some of you are quick to rush to Israel's defense without being objective, thinking as hyphenated Americans instead of Americans.

Shove it up your ass sideways, rex. You read a couple of slanted sites, then lash out with the old "dual loyalty" crap. First you go on and on about how those who disagree with you aren't "real conservatives" and now you're saying they're not "real Americans".

Friendly fire, bad identification, and mis-communication happen in all wars. That's a thousand times more likely than a purposeful attack on the Liberty, no matter how much you want to believe the opposite.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-08-28 4:34:07 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-08-28 4:34:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 The dual loyalty issue is not crap. You can't serve 2 masters.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2004-08-28 5:05:54 PM|| 2004-08-28 5:05:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 as a Catholic, I say you're wrong. I'm American first, Catholic second (ohhh the POPE!), and defender of Israel somewhere after that. We used to have judgements of the relative morality of cultures, and I still do. Islamic culture is a 7th century sinktrap, with no future without reform born of honest introspection. Israel's culture does very nicely, thank you, Rex, in a hostile environment. They're the only democracy in the ME (pending Iraq's reform) - you play at semantics all you want, but don't EVER question my patriotism to America - I'll hunt your stupid ass down....Noogies like you've never received.

Posted by Frank G 2004-08-28 5:10:48 PM|| 2004-08-28 5:10:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Good Heavens! Papists live in RantBurg?
18933 Callsub Swoon

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-28 5:43:22 PM|| 2004-08-28 5:43:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 Loyalty to the state of Israel is not dual. It's being loyal to yourself. We as a country have chosen to protect the existance of Israel against all those trying to destroy it. Someone in this gov't passing on informationn to Israel to ensure it's survival protects both Israel and our good name at the same time.

Posted by DLS 2004-08-28 6:30:32 PM|| 2004-08-28 6:30:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 If true, I say never let them fly on the shuttle ever again. Fair enough?

Posted by Rafael 2004-08-28 6:43:28 PM|| 2004-08-28 6:43:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 The dual loyalty issue is not crap. You can't serve 2 masters.

It is crap, because the assumption is that the person has two masters, solely on the basis of their religion.

And, hell, rex was making the assumption dual loyalty solely on the basis of people's opinions about the goddamned Liberty! Pardon my French, but that's the biggest piece of crap in the universe of crap.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-08-28 6:51:12 PM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2004-08-28 6:51:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 LOL Rafael! You have the driest wit!

Posted by Shipman 2004-08-28 6:52:19 PM|| 2004-08-28 6:52:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 "And, hell, rex was making the assumption dual loyalty solely on the basis of people's opinions about the goddamned Liberty!"

So? I've been called an anti-American (and lots more things besides) solely on my opinion about the wisdom of invading Iraq.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-08-28 7:57:28 PM|| 2004-08-28 7:57:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#76 A. It is crap, because the assumption is that the person has two masters, solely on the basis of their religion. And, hell, rex was making the assumption dual loyalty solely on the basis of people's opinions about the goddamned Liberty! Pardon my French, but that's the biggest piece of crap in the universe of crap.

Maybe you need to read earlier comments of posters on this thread who immediately jumped to the defense of Israel after OldSpook and Pete Stanley brought up the Liberty incident. The knee jerk defenders of Israel had only snide put downs and religious gibberish as their rebuttals. The defenders were certainly not thinking like Americans whose loyalties should be with America first. Call these people Jewish-Americans, Republican-Americans, holy roller Christian-Americans, whatever, but they certainly are not approaching a legitimate controversy as Americans looking for justice and closure for Liberty survivors and their families.

Read the interchange in the following posts:
8,18,19,21,27,29,30,31,32,33,34

B. You read a couple of slanted sites, then lash out with the old "dual loyalty" crap
What are you blathering about? I posted 2 sites that were developed by actual bonafide Americans who were Libery survivors. They were there. Neither you nor jen nor ZF were there. Their sites are a heck of a lot more legitimate to read than your glib conclusions "oh it's just the fog of war" or "I know Israel is really sorry" or "that's been debunked countless times."

C. And, hell, rex was making the assumption dual loyalty solely on the basis of people's opinions about the goddamned Liberty!
As for dual religious-nationality loyalties as it applies to the Liberty Incident, the poster who specifically referred to this concept was not me. It was Anonymous6193, who happens to be of Jewish background:
#33 Jen You can be sure of my understanding of the Torah. I came to Christ from Judaism. Just because the bible tells us that the Israelites are G_D'S choosen ones does not mean the current goverment or even the current people of Israel are those people. I can also love them and not approve of them or their actions at times. I am a US citizen, my family came here 4 generations ago from Germany. Israel killed my fellow countrymen. I owe no loyalty to Isreal. They can apologise to hell and back It doesn't mean I have to forgive them. They helped hide it and cover up LBJs lies. With the billions in aid and direct grants paid by us with money borrowed from our grand kids they can quit spying on us and putting moles in our government. As far as the Liberty goes they should put on burlap and ashes everyday for a few years, throw dirt in the air and wail. Put it on TV every day. Then I'll buy their apology. I remain convinced it was an intentional attack. An attack they have yet to atone for.

#35 Jen G_D will reward me for being faithful to him and nothing else. If you can find the United States of America anywhere in your bible besides the copyrights and publishing info you have a different bible than I do. The U.S. does not play into bible prophecy. I didn't say Israel is not an important partner. But they are not our only one. They sure as hell don't pull their own weight. The U.K. and Canada are much more important to us. The U.K. and Canada don't often cause us more trouble than they are worth or get caught spying on us.

D. First you go on and on about how those who disagree with you aren't "real conservatives"
Nice try to "re-invent" what I posted a few days ago. No cigar. And btw, speak for yourself and don't lie about what I said or didn't say. Figuring out what you mean is enough of a task for you. Don't overtax yourself.
Neocons are not true conservatives and Irving Kristol said it himself. If you are still in denial about his words, don't blame me. Send an email to I. Kristol and chew him out for writing such blasphemy in the Weekly Standard.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 8:34:15 PM|| 2004-08-28 8:34:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 I serve God first. And I also render unto Caesar what is Caesar's.

Fortunately, my country has not yet done anything that has made foced me to irrevoacably choose to spurn it due to my faith. If I were faced with that choice, I do not know what I would do, possibly do nothing at all. I would feel like Abraham asked to sacrifice Isaac - torn to my core. It would destroy me - I would sooner die than disappoint my God or my Nation. I trust in God not to put me to that test.

And that's where I stand - true conservative, going back to God and Man at Yale.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-28 8:56:36 PM|| 2004-08-28 8:56:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 Actually, Anon6193, Michael Evans has just written a whole book about how the Bible does mention the USA in its prophecies called "The American Prophecies."
It's the #2 bestseller at Amazon right after "Unfit for Command."

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 8:57:42 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 8:57:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 Sigh...

These prophecies are as much of a stretch as Nostradamus' are, in my opinion. Loose wording, inaccurate translations, and tons of jumping to conclusions not supported by the words.

Don't drag religion into this. It has no bearing on the possible spy case. So lets nip that in the bud right now.

Israel spies upon the US because they do not ultimately trust anyone other than themselves to act in the best interests of Israel.

The US shoud be realistic about this and realize there are times when Israel will act counter to the US's best interestest. And be vigilant for spies of all stripes.

A spy is a spy regardless of their employer. And they should all be treated the same: if they have disclosed material that could do great damage to the US or its intelligence sources & methods, then they should meet the maximum penalty up to and including the death penalty if competently applied and warranted.

Posted by OldSpook 2004-08-28 10:01:40 PM|| 2004-08-28 10:01:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Don't drag religion into this. It has no bearing on the possible spy case...A spy is a spy regardless of their employer. And they should all be treated the same:
Hear, hear, Old Spook.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 10:38:21 PM|| 2004-08-28 10:38:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Uh, OS, I wasn't dragging religion into this (although it's inevitable in our new Crusade against the Musselmen)--I was replying to Anon6193 as I said.
*Sigh*
What you believe about what the Bible says about the End Times is your own affair and between you and your God.
And rex doesn't want his Jew-hatred to be exposed yet again here at RB.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-28 10:43:20 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-28 10:43:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 I believe "Gentle" is an Islamic proselytizing team. Not sure how many players yet.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-08-28 10:45:02 PM|| 2004-08-28 10:45:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#83
Fuck the Jews, fuck the Isrealis, fuck the Arabs, fuck the Islamists!

If it was up to me, I'd exterminate the whole lot. These fuckers have been fighting and squabling for 1300 years.

I say, kill all of them, now! And let their respective dieties sort it out.

If the Western world can't abide by the insanity that the Izzies put out, why the FUCK should we care about 5 Million jews on a worthless piece of shit strip of land with no oil???

Kill every one of them, Jew, Arab...etc. et al!

We have been expending American lives and American treasure for these fuckers for TOO long.

Trash the place and and call it DONE!

I do not consider 1 Arab, or one Isreali life to to be worth even 10,000 American lives. This conflict has been festering for centuries!

FUCK them! Kill ALL of them now and end it.

Oh...BTW...Give Peace a chance!

Genocidaly Crazy in Texas!

Posted by CiT 2004-08-28 10:55:21 PM|| 2004-08-28 10:55:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 And rex doesn't want his Jew-hatred to be exposed yet again here at RB.

Prove that serious allegation, Jen, by finding any posts I made that showed "Jew hatred" or apologize to me for lying about me.

Go ahead, you find anything I said that demonstrates hatred for Jews - and don't slouch back with your re-invention of my posts or a Jenitized summary of my posts.

You are an unstable person, Jen, and I'm not going to be your whipping boy. Find those posts or apologize to me.

Posted by rex 2004-08-28 11:05:52 PM|| 2004-08-28 11:05:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#85
rex:

Jen has shown herself over and over to be a stupid WWJD spewing cunt for some time.

When I read some of her crap I want to wretch!

A typical Jen post: Sunshine...blah, blah, blah.
Darkness: blah, blah, blah!

Hey! You twat, pull the tampon out and get laid!

Twit!

CiT

Posted by CiT 2004-08-28 11:21:42 PM|| 2004-08-28 11:21:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#86 Gee, guys--thanks for nothing.

BTW, this story about the "Israeli spy" has been shown to be a CBS hit piece to hurt the AIPAC delegation at the RNC Convention in New York.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-31 1:33:34 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-31 1:33:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#87 Fred, I don't mean to complain, but CiT's remarks are really quite abusive and offensive and I'd like for them to be deleted as troll droppings, please.

Posted by GreatestJeneration 2004-08-31 1:36:03 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com] 2004-08-31 1:36:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#88 CiT - You're over the line. FOAD.

Posted by .com 2004-08-31 2:01:23 AM|| 2004-08-31 2:01:23 AM|| Front Page Top

12:20 N Greene
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12:56 Halfass Pete
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