Archived material Access restricted Article
Rantburg

Today's Front Page   View All of Mon 08/15/2005 View Sun 08/14/2005 View Sat 08/13/2005 View Fri 08/12/2005 View Thu 08/11/2005 View Wed 08/10/2005 View Tue 08/09/2005
1
2005-08-15 Europe
More on 'Mysterious' Crash of Cypriot Aircraft
Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 00:30|| || Front Page|| [11129 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 Not mentioned in the article, but a significant part of the mystery is why the radio wasn't used as the plane flew for an hour after whatever incident occured. Other crew members would have known how to use the radio in an emergency. And then what about the two men seen in the cockpit, which must have been well into the hour. Why weren't they effected?

Skin coloration is determined by the amount of pigment in the skin and the blood flowing through it. Blood that is saturated with oxygen is bright red. Blood that has lost its oxygen is dark bluish-red. People who have a large quantity of blood deficient in oxygen tend to take on a bluish discoloration called cyanosis.

Lack of oxygen (such as in suffocation or cyanotic heart disease), abnormal hemoglobin (such as methemoglobinemia) and toxins (such as cyanide) can all produce cyanosis.

Did someone poison an entire aircraft full of people?
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 00:46||   2005-08-15 00:46|| Front Page Top

#2 The more I think about this, the more poisoning the crew and passengers makes sense. After 9/11 people aren't going to sit back and let a plane be hijacked. You have to incapcitate them. Planes recirculate air. All you need to do is place a toxic gas emitter next to the air extract and the air conditioning system will distribute it throughout the plane for you. The hijackers either need somekind of antidote or their own oxygen.

If I am right all hell will break loose over this.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 01:17||   2005-08-15 01:17|| Front Page Top

#3 If a toxin was used plan on never hearing a word of it. No one would fly and the airlines would go out of business. No government is going to let this out if they is true,
Posted by Sock Puppet 0’ Doom 2005-08-15 01:27||   2005-08-15 01:27|| Front Page Top

#4 The survival of everyone on board depends on just one thing: finding someone on board who can not only fly this plane, but who didn't have fish for dinner.
Posted by Chris W.">Chris W.  2005-08-15 01:35||   2005-08-15 01:35|| Front Page Top

#5 Pity Aris isn't around, I'd like to know the meaning of the Greek word 'frozen', cos in english it can mean either very cold or immobilized. The former would be the only direct evidence for the decompression theory (i've seen). The latter would be evidence of poisoning.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 02:12||   2005-08-15 02:12|| Front Page Top

#6 The terrorist theory doesn't make sense. The point of terrorizing is to make a big show of it, eg. crashing into buildings, explosions, claims of responsibility. Otherwise, it may well just have been another air crash. It may be a botched terror attempt, but I doubt it.
Posted by Rafael 2005-08-15 02:28||   2005-08-15 02:28|| Front Page Top

#7 It could be as simple as the 'hijackers didn't know how to turn off the auto-pilot. Remember 9/11, the hijackers only learned how to steer a plane. Cyprus is less than 30 minutes flying time from Israel.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 03:52||   2005-08-15 03:52|| Front Page Top

#8 The point of terrorizing is to make a big show of it, eg. crashing into buildings, explosions, claims of responsibility.

While I doubt this was terrorism, the prospect of airliners falling out of the sky every so often is pretty terrible.
Posted by Colt 2005-08-15 05:47|| www.eurabiantimes.com]">[www.eurabiantimes.com]  2005-08-15 05:47|| Front Page Top

#9 When you lose cabin pressure you want to lose height quickly to restore pressure and temperature.

They had loads of fuel.

This seems very strange to me.
Posted by Ulereger Clavigum6227 2005-08-15 06:57||   2005-08-15 06:57|| Front Page Top

#10 ...I'm still inclined to go with 'horrifying accident' here. A decompression accident is VERY survivable IF the guys up front do everything right the first time - no room for mistakes, no 'do-overs'. I know of no other way to say this than to say this bluntly - US, UK, Australian, and Canadian pilots get stuff hammered into them on the simulators on a regular basis to the point where dealing with an accident like this is reflexive - but for the overwhelming majority of the world, sophisticated training such as that mandated by our laws is something they read about in the magazines, and I would be sadly confident that in this case the final verdict would be insufficient training followed by pilot panic.

Mike
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2005-08-15 07:35||   2005-08-15 07:35|| Front Page Top

#11 This report says bodies were frozen solid and speculates the airconditioning spread poison gas.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 07:44||   2005-08-15 07:44|| Front Page Top

#12 Oxygen masks deployed, one pilot slumped, the other missing, and then two guys show up in the cockpit? The presence of these two was especially mysterious, he added, because by all appearances most of the plane's other occupants were incapacitated.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when they play the tapes from the black box!

Mebbe OBL will claim responsibility? Why nlt? Claim to cause accidents? Sure, it was allan's will....
Posted by Bobby 2005-08-15 07:45||   2005-08-15 07:45|| Front Page Top

#13 There was also mystery over the last minutes of the flight which was declared "renegade" when it entered Greek air space and failed to make radio contact, causing two F-16 air force jets to scramble to investigate ahh..so that's why the jets were there.
Posted by 2b 2005-08-15 08:57||   2005-08-15 08:57|| Front Page Top

#14 "The F-16s saw two individuals in the cockpit seemingly trying to regain control of the airplane," Roussoupoulos told reporters. It was not known if they were passengers or other crew.

"The F-16s also saw oxygen masks down when they got close to the aircraft. The aircraft was making continuous right-hand turns to show it had lost radio contact."

The Defense Ministry said it suspected the plane's oxygen supply or pressurization system may have malfunctioned, which could have led to death within seconds for ALL on board.

We'll be forced to swallow it, of course, but it's a bit tough to reconcil how they could have ALL died within seconds - yet two were able to enter the cabin and cause the plane to make left hand turns to indicate loss of radio contact.
Posted by 2b 2005-08-15 09:03||   2005-08-15 09:03|| Front Page Top

#15 make that right hand.
Posted by 2b 2005-08-15 09:03||   2005-08-15 09:03|| Front Page Top

#16 Most of the bodies recovered from the Cypriot plane that crashed into a mountain near Athens with 121 people on board were "frozen solid," a Greek Defense Ministry source said on Monday.
"Autopsy on passengers so far shows the bodies were frozen solid, including some whose skin was charred by flames from the crash," the source, with access to the investigation, told Reuters.

"A passenger on the doomed plane said in an SMS text to his cousin in Athens: "The pilot has turned blue. Cousin farewell, we're freezing."

The Defense Ministry said it suspected the plane's oxygen supply or pressurisation system may have malfunctioned, which could have led to death within seconds for all on board.
Greek media speculated toxic gas from possible faulty air-conditioning could have incapacitated the two pilots.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-08-15 09:18||   2005-08-15 09:18|| Front Page Top

#17 Question for "Bill Nye, The Science Guy" or any other lab coated geek:
At what temp would it take to completely freese an adult body of any weight in an hour?
Posted by Capsu78 2005-08-15 10:47||   2005-08-15 10:47|| Front Page Top

#18 Most of the bodies recovered from the Cypriot plane that crashed into a mountain near Athens with 121 people on board were "frozen solid"...

Man, I want a second translation of that. It takes a mighty long time to freeze a human body "solid", a lot longer than it takes to freeze to death.

Posted by Angie Schultz 2005-08-15 10:57|| http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]">[http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]  2005-08-15 10:57|| Front Page Top

#19 What's really weird here is how two guys were supposedly up and messing with the controls. Why would they be less affected by what downed the pilots?
Posted by Laurence of the Rats">Laurence of the Rats  2005-08-15 11:52|| http://www.punictreachery.com/]">[http://www.punictreachery.com/]  2005-08-15 11:52|| Front Page Top

#20 At 30,000 feet the air temperature is about minus 40F. Limbs and surface skin would freeze, but doubt it extended to body core. They'd be dead from lack of oxygen first.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-08-15 11:53||   2005-08-15 11:53|| Front Page Top

#21 Maybe, a la "The Day After Tomorrow," there was a sudden cold front that froze everything solid because George Bush invaded Iraq for oil and so Dick Cheney's Haliburton stock options would increase in value due to global warming?
Posted by Tibor 2005-08-15 12:21||   2005-08-15 12:21|| Front Page Top

#22 It would take an awfully long time to freeze solid. I found a rather compelling article on what it would be like to (nearly) die from hypothermia here.
Posted by growler 2005-08-15 12:34||   2005-08-15 12:34|| Front Page Top

#23 My take (subject to change):

Cabin pressure failed dramatically PLUS the separate oxygen flow in the pilot's cabin, which was locked. When the pilot stumbled into the passenger's cabin with a blue face it might have been to late. The passengers must have had working oxygen (at least to a certain extent), or nobody could have sent an SMS. The passengers did not die immediately obviously.

The pilots didn't have any oxygen, that's why they couldn't initiate the rapid descent. Since the autopilot was on the plane went on to Athens were the autopilot would make it circle, waiting for manual override necessary for landing. This for more than an hour at an altitude where minus 50°C is typical.

I know what minus 50 is like, we had that in Siberia. Exposed body parts would freeze extremely fast being ALIVE. A dead person would freeze solid quite fast, at least the exterior. I think "frozen solid" would mean that touching the body would feel hard. Doesn't have to mean that the whole body was solidly frozen already.

Some passengers (or the flight attendants) might have tried to perform the descent but may have been unable to override the autopilot. This explains the long circling at high altitude.

Yes that doesn't explain everything. Before stumbling into the passenger cabin the pilot should have performed the descent. This is routine and can be initiated within seconds. It only takes minutes to reach "breathable" altitudes.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-15 13:45||   2005-08-15 13:45|| Front Page Top

#24 It might be a little-known fact that the oxygen masks on airplanes only work for about 10 minutes. When there's a failure, the pilot is supposed to use those 10 minutes to descend to a breathable altitude. What's weird is why they didn't do that.
Posted by gromky">gromky  2005-08-15 13:59|| http://communistposters.com/]">[http://communistposters.com/]  2005-08-15 13:59|| Front Page Top

#25 I suspect the blackboxes will show that the pilot felt nearly incapacitated and left the copilot in charge of descent wile he sought air, but the copilot passed out before completing his mission. Somebody should do time for the failed cockpit oxygen system.
Posted by Darrell 2005-08-15 14:08||   2005-08-15 14:08|| Front Page Top

#26 interesting post TGA.
Posted by 2b 2005-08-15 14:29||   2005-08-15 14:29|| Front Page Top

#27 I'd like to know more about the sender of the text messenger. "The pilot is blue and we're freezing" may mean he was in the cockpit to see what was going on. My daughter informs me you only have 1.8 seconds to put on the oxygen mask and it only lasts 10 minutes, and one report said most of the bodies didn't have them on. The text messenger may have been complicit in the plot, whatever it was.
Posted by Danielle 2005-08-15 14:58||   2005-08-15 14:58|| Front Page Top

#28 Well, Danielle, looks like you might get your wish, 'cause the cops have arrested him:

Authorities said they believed the man was lying, and his cousin's name was not on the Cypriot government's official list of victims.

It'd be damned odd for him to know about "freezing" that early, if he didn't get a message.

Also, from the same article, the cops have raided Helios's offices; they think Helios is dragging its feet. This report says the cockpit voice recorder was damaged.
Posted by Angie Schultz 2005-08-15 15:37|| http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]">[http://darkblogules.blogspot.com]  2005-08-15 15:37|| Front Page Top

#29 A central question is whether the passengers and crew were alive, or perhaps unconscious, before the plane slammed into a mountain.

The fact that they were frozen might prove to be a significant clue.
Posted by 2b 2005-08-15 15:41||   2005-08-15 15:41|| Front Page Top

#30 New reports say that at least some passengers were alive when the plane crashed.
If the plane circled at high altitude for 11/2 hours passengers would not have survived. If it circled at lower altitude no freezing of the bodies could have occurred.
If the SMS about freezing was fake, then who knows...
It's difficult to speculate without having all the facts.
Posted by True German Ally 2005-08-15 15:51||   2005-08-15 15:51|| Front Page Top

#31 "It's difficult to speculate without having all the facts."

That's never stopped people before, TGA - especially the media.
Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2005-08-15 18:11||   2005-08-15 18:11|| Front Page Top

#32 This quote seems to discount that the bodies were frozen.

"We have performed autopsies on six people. Our conclusion is they had circulation and were breathing at the time of death," Koutsaftis said, but stressed: "I cannot rule out that they were unconscious."
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 18:18||   2005-08-15 18:18|| Front Page Top

#33 One other point is that the plane's windows weren't frosted, which several experts say would have happened with decompression. Toxicology tests are under way. As far as I am concerned, its definitely poisoning. We should know how and whether its terrorism or accident, soon.
Posted by phil_b 2005-08-15 22:24||   2005-08-15 22:24|| Front Page Top

23:50 anonymous2u
23:42 Zhang Fei
23:34 Anonymoose
23:17 Zhang Fei
23:14 DMFD
23:12 Glenmore
23:10 Anonymoose
23:09 Jan
23:07 BH
22:56 Frank G
22:51 Thoque Unush3335
22:50 Constitutional Individualist
22:47 bigjim-ky
22:45 Sobiesky
22:44 Constitutional Individualist
22:44 Frank G
22:44 Zhang Fei
22:38 Zhang Fei
22:38 Uleregum Hupains2323
22:36 bigjim-ky
22:34 phil_b
22:30 bigjim-ky
22:29 Captain America
22:27 Frank G









Paypal:
Google
Search WWW Search rantburg.com