Article

2008-08-12 Europe

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by john frum 2008-08-12 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11125 views ] Top

#1 Of course, Ahmadinejad also visited Baghdad in June and received commitments from his Shiite counter-part that Iraq wouldn't be a staging ground for an attack on Iran. That might appear surprising given that Turkey forced 20% of America's planned operational forces to sit tight in Turkish harbors, while Americans prepared to attack Iraq from the south. So what is the common ground? They are all Islamofascists like nothing better than to murder and play the dhimmi kaffir. Do the math.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-12 01:46|| 2008-08-12 01:46|| Front Page Top

#2 Turkey and Israel also have very close ties: look at the flyover to the Syrian reactors...
so calling them Islamofascists may b out of line...

/ 'Do the math.' 2+2=5 - doubleplus hopechange /.

Posted by linker 2008-08-12 01:55|| 2008-08-12 01:55|| Front Page Top

#3 john frum:

What do you think? Turkey is NATO's cess pool. Georgia is between Turkey and Russia. Georgia aided and abetted Chechen terror. And the handful of us who speak out against the Georgian frauds, are attacked by ideological illiterates.

Perhaps the profane attacks on Russian sympathisers might diminish, if the haters were educated in Georgian Stalinism and nationalism. Much can be learned by the open minded by reading from the attached link to correspondence between Georgia's first elected authoritarian, Gamsakhurdia, and the winner of the Civil War that toppled him. The letter was directed to Eduard Shevardnadze (former Foreign Minister of the USSR). In same, Stalin2 attacks all contacts with Russia. Gamsa campaigned on a "Georgia for the Georgians" slogan. The Russian position is: they didn't step out of the Warsaw Pact in order for NATO to walk in. Frontier security is an understandable priority for Russia.

Assuming anyone worth communicating with knows how to use "Internet Archive," please type the following dead link in same:
http://www.geocities.com/shavlego/ZG_Letter_SH.htm

You won't find said letter in ANY other internet source. Read it with the open mind that I haven't seen from all Rantburg posters in the past few days. It is time to point the blame finger at the Georgians. Myopic NATO members know that Turkey won't place missiles so they chose Georgia. Vlad saw you coming.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-12 02:08|| 2008-08-12 02:08|| Front Page Top

#4

yes I'll just goose step over and read about the Nazi sympathizer Zviad Gamsakhurdia...

... sorry for my rudeness but I'm cranky tonight...

Posted by linker 2008-08-12 02:26|| 2008-08-12 02:26|| Front Page Top

#5 linker:

People need to gather more info about Georgian politics before they talk about neo-Sovietism. I wish Fred wouldn't allow profane and personal attacks at Rantburg. Nobody gets that from me.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-12 02:37|| 2008-08-12 02:37|| Front Page Top

#6 I disagree about being open minded to soviet propaganda.

I don't believe the current elected Georgian govt had involvement with Chechnya. Even the Russians aren't saying anything about that. They're saying it's genocide by the Georgians (no evidence yet) as justification while they bomb the whole area and blame the Georgians later for the killings.

I would trust an allied democratic nation an over an ex-soviet Machiavellian KGB-led superpower with a puppet president who has suppressed all media outlets.

It truly is the "Evil empire".

Posted by Jiggs Chiter5628 2008-08-12 02:54|| GlobalSecurity.Org]">[GlobalSecurity.Org] 2008-08-12 02:54|| Front Page Top

#7 Turkey has a dog in this fight. They are the conduit of Caspian Basin oil/gas to Europe. Sans Georgia, they lose large revenues and geopolitical clout.

Maybe, an Iranian/Russian deal to keep Turkey as the conduit has kept them sweet.

McZoid, you are a fuckwhit. Albeit, (according to you) a polite fuckwhit.

And BTW, I doubt there is anyone here who knows more about the Trans-caucasus than me.

And also BTW, Caroline Glick is someone whose views I take seriously.

Posted by phil_b 2008-08-12 03:09|| 2008-08-12 03:09|| Front Page Top

#8 "Frontier security is an understandable priority for Russia. "

Ahthe old Lebensraum arguemen from our local Nazi, McZoid.

As for the profanity - you deserve it. ANy enemy of liberty such as yourself deserves every bit of the opprobrium and scorn sent your way.

We treat you the same way we would treat any representative of the KKK or Nazi Party.

Your policies and raciscm are so near theirs as to be indistinguishable.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-12 03:52|| 2008-08-12 03:52|| Front Page Top

#9 "And BTW, I doubt there is anyone here who knows more about the Trans-caucasus than me"

What a self important cunt you are too. I blame the fucking internet for the over exposure you receive. Philbee you stupid cunt!

Posted by anti-tosser 2008-08-12 03:52|| 2008-08-12 03:52|| Front Page Top

#10 By God, I think McZoid is a mentally ill paranoid with a psychotic fixation on Islam. He sees an islamofascist behind every rock and every paranopid plot. He miscontrues facts, timeline and disregards contrary date. He refuses to examine his logic and the contradictory results his denaials and obsession bring. He ends up bakcing dictators over free peopel, in ordere to keep from breakign his paranoid delusions about the world. He even lies, routinely and repeatedly, to keep up the "bubble" so that his delusionary world doenst collapse on him.

McZoid, you are one sick puppy.

Better get back on the pills, or you'll likely be howling at the moon while locking yourself in the closet against all those imagined Islamofascists, all while the real ones use slavering nutjobs like you to recruit.

Morons like you make it difficult for people dealing with the real thing - your stupid "kill them all" attitude is no different from the worst of our enemies. You are every bit as evil as they are, and makes thier justifications all the easier when your type pops out of the woodowork.

Tell me this McNutjob, how many tours have you done in Afghansit or Iraq? How many people and units there have you supported? How many times have you been to Balad or Bagram as a civilian? How many trips to Uzbekistan have you taken? How many friends have you buried?

I've been there done that. I know the cost, and the value, and the enemy.

How many times have you seen REAL islamofaciss face to face?

I've seen a few, dead.

And how many normal civilian non-fascist muslims have you met?

I've met plenty.

Talk to the combat troops that have served there. You'll hear much the same. Talk to the intelligence people who know the bottom line on these things. You'll hear much the same.

Talk to professional military with experience in this area and field, and you'll find out that you are completely wrong.

Guys on the pointy end of the stick don't need armchair cowards like you spewing lies hatred and paranoid ravings which makes their jobs harder.

It showss you are not only wrong, but dead wrong. And your continued insistence in the face of experience, facts and reason to the contrary means you are not only wrong, but you are stupid as well since you refuse to learn.

Care to explain yourself now?

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-12 04:10|| 2008-08-12 04:10|| Front Page Top

#11 OldSpook, there is no need to attack phil_b. You don't know why he claims such expertise. Perhaps he is a professor of Trans-causasian history at one of the Austrian universities, in which case he's probably right.

Useful information and analysis at your site, Jiggs Chiter5628. I'll be back to visit.

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2008-08-12 08:58|| 2008-08-12 08:58|| Front Page Top

#12 TW

I doubt VERY much that anyone who is an expert at an Austrian university takes Caroline Glick seriously. Ive read her on and off for years, and I very much DO NOT take her seriously.

While I choose not to use obscene language (most of the time) we all have different personalities, and I am not ex-spec forces. I must say though, that McZoids posts the last several days have combined rehashing Putin propaganda, totally idiotic side issues (Georgians as Stalinists!) which he has repeated ad nauseum despite having had their absurdity repeatedly pointed out - plus absolutely bigoted statements about muslims, for an example of which I need only point you to the his first post on this thread.

Posted by superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-12 09:14|| 2008-08-12 09:14|| Front Page Top

#13 I know, my dear. Mr. McZoid very much needs to stop posting unless he actually has something useful to add to the discusson. That, however, is a moderator decision, to which I am grateful not to be party.

But, OldSpook needs to calm down a bit. He's going to burst a blood vessel if he keeps this up, not to mention driving off those who side with him. The key bit of phil_b's post not his claim to expertise, but McZoid, you are a fuckwhit. Albeit, (according to you) a polite fuckwhit.

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2008-08-12 09:37|| 2008-08-12 09:37|| Front Page Top

#14
On Wednesday, Iran's genocidal, nuclear weapons-seeking leader, President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, will arrive in Istanbul for a "working visit" with Turkish leaders. This visit represents a diplomatic triumph for Teheran. Since assuming office three years ago, Ahmadinejad has feverishly pursued diplomatic ties with Western-allied states in an effort to weaken the West's will to take action to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons. Turkey is the first NATO member to welcome him to its territory.

Turkey borders on Iran, has interests in Iraq, has concerns about the Kurds. It is very difficult for Turkey to maintain a diplo boycott of Iran, esp when Iraq does not. It is nonetheless the case that Turkey has contested Iran for influence in Iraq.

According to media reports, during his visit Ahmadinejad is scheduled to meet with President Abdullah Gul and with Prime Minister Recip Tayyip Erdogan. On the agenda are Iran's nuclear program and Turkish-Iranian financial ties. Turkey favors advancing both.

I do not believe that Turkey truely favors advancing Irans nuclear program, and all i have read is that they are very concerned about it.

In recent months, the Turkish government has become one of the most outspoken advocates of Iran's nuclear program. At least publicly, Turkish leaders credulously accept Iran's dubious assertions about the peaceful intent of its nuclear program - which it refuses to fully expose to the UN's International Atomic Energy Agency's inspectors.

Ms Glick could be so kind as to included a quote or link to that effect. In any case, it would be hard for Turkey, in the face of anti-US public opinion, to publicly maintain its agreement with an arguement thats still mainly based on circumstantial evidence, even if they do beleive that in private.

As for financial ties with Iran, Turkey is working feverishly to expand them. From 2002, when Erdogan's and Gul's Islamic fundamentalist AKP party first assumed leadership of the country through 2007, Turkey's trade with Iran expanded from $1.2 billion to $6.7 billion. In July 2007, Turkey signed a $3.5 billion deal to develop one of Iran's oil fields. Over US objections, Turkey is planning to finalize that deal with Ahmadinejad this week. Trade between the two countries is expanding so quickly that most Turkish businessmen will tell you that Iran is their hottest market.

The above is mainly evidence that trade has increased, NOT that the Turkish govt has particularly encouraged it. Turkey has been pursuing economic growth, and as such there has been growth in trade with many partners, including Israel IIUC, with which Turkey does not boycott. The only serious issue is the investment in Iranian oil fields. But lets be clear, there are no UN sanctions requiring Turkey to not make those investments, nor even at this point an EU boycott on such investments (not that Turkey is in the EU). If the US wants Turkey to go beyond, it needs to provide inducements.

TURKEY'S WARM ties with Iran are matched by its embrace of Iranian satellites and proxies like Syria and Hizbullah. Turkey was the first Western-allied state and NATO member to host Syrian President Bashar Assad on a state visit after Assad's regime assassinated former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri in 2005. In 2006, Turkey sided with Hizbullah in its war against Israel. It even allowed Iran to transfer weapons to Hizbullah through Turkey.

Again, Turkey borders Syria, and has multiple issues, including water, Kurds, etc to discuss with it. Syria isnt going to diplo boycott Assad. Besides, Caroline, who was the second NATO country to meet Assad? Was there really even a boycott happening?

Of course Turkey verbally opposed Israel on Lebanon. It was impossible for anyone in the muslim world, or even in the broader 3rd world, to not take that position. Even most in the West didnt openly support Israel. Again Ms Glick is asking Turkey for what it was never possible for Turkey to give. This is a formula for multiplying 'enemies' something a certain side of the Likud likes to do.

As for allowing transfer of weapons, I would need to see evidence, and a discussion of the quantity, what Israel expected Turkey to stop, etc.

Then there is Turkey's open support for Hamas. After Hamas's victory in the January 2006 Palestinian legislative elections, Turkey became the third non-Arab state after Iran and Russia to openly embrace Hamas. Hamas's Syrian-based leader Khaled Mashaal paid an official visit to Ankara where he met with then foreign minister Gul and senior AKP party officials a month after his Iranian-sponsored terror group's electoral victory

Again, and again, Turkish support amounts to know more than meetings. Its very odd that someone who believes as Ms Glick usually does, that meetings are hollow, is so willing to charecterize Turkey as supporting people they only met with. News Ms Gluck - Turkey also holds meetings with Israel - does that meen Turkey supports Israel?

The Turkish government's support for Hamas is complemented by its support for al Qaida financiers. In the summer of 2006, Erdogan endorsed his top advisor's donations to senior al Qaida financier Yasin al-Qadi after they were exposed in the Turkish media. And since entering office, Erdogan, Gul and their AKP colleagues have repeatedly accused Israel and the US of committing genocide against Muslims in Gaza, Lebanon and Iraq.

He ENDORSED the donations? Or did he just say they were not criminal acts? Without a link, or even a quote, which Ms Gluck has a tendency not to provide, its hard to tell. Ms Gluck leaves you to either do her homework for her, or accept her charecterization on faith. Thats what propagandists do.

The rest is words, words that, again, are routine in the muslim world, and that the Turkish leadership, facing a people who DONT LIKE THE US OR THE WEST, can hardly avoid. Ms Gluck seems happy to ignore Turkeys gripes against the west, from EU rejection to their discomfort for very pragmatic reasons with the change in regime in Iraq, which are the CONTEXT for the words she focuses on.

While both the US and Israel have voiced their displeasure with Turkey's embrace of their enemies, neither country has taken any steps to either discredit Ankara or to distance themselves from the Turkish government. To the contrary, both Israel and the US continue to praise Turkey as a strategic ally. Both insist that under the AKP, Turkey is demonstrating that it is possible to be Islamic fundamentalist and pro-Western.

Probably because they are looking at Turkeys actions, not words, are looking at them in context, and are not cherry picking to make a case.

And both are enabling and indeed encouraging Turkey to act as an intermediary between them and their sworn enemies.

Now we get to Glicks REAL problem with Turkey.

In Israel's case, Turkey has been mediating the Olmert-Livni-Barak government's negotiations with Syria. And in the US's case, it appears that Turkey has played a mediation role between Washington and Teheran. On July 17, both US National Security Advisor Steven Hadley and Iranian Foreign Minister Manoucher Mouttaki just happened to be visiting Ankara on the same day. Two days later, US Assistant Secretary of State William Burns met with Iran's nuclear negotiator Saeed Jalili in Geneva.
In both cases, it is far from clear that either Israel or the US have benefitted from Turkey's increasingly prominent role in their foreign policy. In fact, in both cases, Israel and the US have weakened their position by allowing Turkey to serve as a mediator between them and their adversaries.

IN THE case of Syria, as Assad's recent visit to Teheran showed clearly, Israel's attempt to use negotiations with Syria to pry Damascus away from its strategic alliance with Teheran has failed. To date, the only thing its decision to hold indirect negotiations with Syria in Turkey has done is end Syria's isolation from the West.

The negotiations havent worked YET, so they are A. bound to fail B. Not worth trying

Lets face it, Ms Gluck doesnt WANT a deal with Syria, and is unhappy at the attempt.

As for Iran, the Bush administration's decision to allow Turkey to mediate between it and the ayatollahs has arguably emboldened Turkey to move forward with its Iranian oil deal. Beyond that, Turkey's success in convincing the Americans to actively pursue diplomacy with the Iranians paved the way for the US's humiliation in Geneva last month. During that meeting, Jalili made no attempt to reach an agreement with the US and its partners.

A. That would have happened SANS turkey B. Its a good thing, as its stripped off the face of iranian "moderation" and is pushing the EUros furhter along, this time without the excuse that the US wasnt participating C. I see no evidence it has anything to do with Turkish investments. More seriously it IS related to Totals withdrawl from Iran.

And by joining the Europeans and the Russians in directly engaging Iran, the US facilitated Russia's announcement last week that it sees no reason to impose additional UN Security Council sanctions against Iran for its failure to agree to temporarily suspend of its uranium enrichment activities.

Bunk - If anything it made Russias position more absurd. A. Its not clear if Russia will stick to it - they tend to make statements like this to defer action B. iF they do so, it will be because of RUSSIAN interests, not the meeting in Geneva. C. That meeting would have happened without Turkey.

Like Russia under Putin, Turkey under Erdogan's leadership has masked its rapid transformation from a flawed but pro-Western democracy under its previous governments into an anti-Western - and in Turkey's case Islamist - regime by paying lip service to the West even as it has taken steps to purge its power structure of pro-Western voices. Just as Putin's popular government has taken brutal action against his political, intellectual and financial foes, so too, Erdogan's popularly elected Islamic fundamentalist regime has worked steadily to discredit, criminalize and intimidate its pro-Western rivals.

I do not think this parallel is true.

SINCE TAKING office in 2002, the AKP under Erdogan has taken control over Turkey's bureaucracy.

youd expect the elected govt to try that.

It has weakened women's rights. It has launched brutal campaigns against its foes in the media, taking over opposition television stations and arresting and intimidating anti-Islamic editors and reporters.

links and quotes, please.

It has taken over the Turkish secret police and regular police forces.

isnt the govt SUPPOSED to have control over those?

It has stacked the Turkish courts with its loyalists.

More than just through the normal appt process? To waht extend were the former judges biased against them?

It has enabled the opening of radical Islamic madrassas.

IE its allowed freedom of religion? Its stopped the policy of allowign only pro govt muslims institutions to open? Does Ms Gluck understand how illiberal previous Turkish policy on religion was? Does she know ANYTHING about Turkey?

It has penetrated the military and demoralized and intimidated the senior officer corps.

you mean to try to keep them from launching a coup? Does Ms Gluck know anything about the history of coups in Turkey?

It has ignored court judgments against it.

You mean the one banning the governing party?

Through the police, it has launched a massive wire tapping campaign against its political opponents and has leaked embarrassing transcripts of these tapped phone calls to its loyalist press to humiliate and intimidate its rivals.

Legal or illegal wiretaps? As for leaks, that hardly sounds like waht a dictatorship does with such info. They arrest people, tehy dont leak about them. leaking about them is more like what J Edgar Hoover used to do.

The only remaining secular check on Erdogan's government is Turkey's Constitutional Court. Last week, the court narrowly rejected the court's chief prosecutor's lawsuit calling for the outlawing of the AKP party on the grounds that it is seeking to overthrow Turkey's secular constitutional order. In their ruling, ten out of eleven judges did agree that the AKP is seeking to weaken Turkey's secular identity and ruled that it be denied government funding.

note that weakening Turkeys secular identity arguably means ALLOWING muslim religious practices, and having a party that is as friendly to Islam as Christian Democratic parties are to Christianity

In an apparent bid to both distract the public from the court case and to further delegitimize its opponents, the government claims that it uncovered a conspiracy by senior opposition officials, including leading journalists, businessmen and generals, called the Ergenekon plot to overthrow the government. It alleges that most of the terror attacks carried out by Islamic terrorists over the past several years were actually carried out by members of this secularist cabal. Last month the police arrested two retired generals, a prominent industrialist and a respected journalist along with 17 others in its prosecution of the Ergenekon plot.

Im not familiar with the above, but based on previous, Im certainly not relying on Caroline Gluck as a fair source on the byzantine details of Turkish politics.

In all of this, of course, Erdogan and his associates are mirroring Putin's actions in Russia since he assumed office in 2000. Like Putin, the AKP replaced a deeply corrupt, unpopular pro-Western government.

the fact that both replaced corrupt govts, doesnt mean they are alike. I would also question the 'prowesterness of both yeltsin, and the previous Turkish govt. BTW, does Ms Gluck know that Putin was first appointed premier BY Boris Yeltsin?

While Putin has built his popularity on xenophobia and hatred of the West, Erdogan and the AKP have built their popularity on a rejection of secular Turkish nationalism in favor of pan-Islamism and hatred of the US and Israel.

From all ive read, thats a mischarecterization of Turkish politics.

And as they have moved their countries away from the West, both Putin and Erdogan have managed to maintain good relations with Washington by going through the motions of supporting its war against terror even as they have both embraced terrorists and their state sponsors.

well now THATS somewhat of a mischarecterization of Russia, which is friendly toward Iran, but has fought against AQ, and more than merely going through the motions. Again, thats how Glick plays fast and loose with facts and rhetoric.

THE LESSON moving forward from all of is not that Israel and the US should turn their backs on Turkey. In an international environment that is increasingly hostile to liberal democracies, there is no reason to cut off ties with hostile regimes just because they are hostile.

Also that Turkey isnt hostile.

But at the same time, neither the US nor Israel should delude themselves by thinking that Turkey remains their strategic ally. It is not. And there are consequences to this fact.

For the US, beyond ending immediately Turkey's role as an intermediary with Iran, it would make sense to float the notion of removing Turkey from NATO due to its expanding ties with Iran.

That is like total idiocy. I dont know where to begin. It leaves me speechless.

Just the suggestion of such a move would no doubt have a profound effect on the Turks.

Yes, it would alienate ALL elements in Turkey, and push Turkey hard toward our enemies - for real this time.

Certainly, the US should be reaching out to regime opponents and calling for Erdogan and his associates to end their attempts to repress the anti-Islamic media and secular politicians, businessmen and military commanders.

Try a color revolution against an ally and friendly govt, no words for such genius.

If the US is concerned about inflaming Turkish sentiment against it through such moves it should consider that since Erdogan took power, and as the US has bent over backwards to be nice to him, anti-US sentiment in Turkey has risen steeply. According to a recent Pew international opinion poll, today the Turks are the most anti-American society in the world.

Be "NIce" to him. Ms Gluck again reveals a refusal to look at whats driving Turkish public opinion. Anyway, threatening to toss Turkey from NATO would not only make those numbers (and who really cares about Pew, anyway?) worse, but more importantly would turn Turkish elites and the military against us. Ms Gluck is doing one good thing though - shes countering Jewish elitism wrt to IQ.

For its part, Israel should reassess its willingness to sell sensitive military equipment to Turkey given its close ties to Israel's enemies. It should certainly stop its Turkish-mediated talks with Syria and reject Turkish offers to mediate between Israel and the Palestinians.

Again thats what this is really about. Not the AKP, not meaningless AKP rhetoric, not the idiocy of making Turkey an enemy - its about a the Golan, and the two state solution, and the need to keep the one, and avoid the other.

Like Russia, Turkey's anti-Western regime is promoting itself to the West by pretending not to be anti-Western. And as was the case with Russia up until it decided to invade defenseless Georgia over the weekend, the US and its allies have been willing to endanger their strategic interests to believe this lie.

It can only be hoped that the West will abandon this policy before it inadvertently paves the way for a new Iranian-allied axis of evil populated by the likes of Russia, Turkey and Pakistan.

If it were that, wouldnt it be allied with Russia? Wouldnt Russia be at the core, not Iran? Of course this ignores both Turkish - Russian rivarly, and Pakistani - Russian rivalry. But why should Ms Gluck consider such real world facts?

All of these governments owe much of their power to the West's willingness to believe that their anti-Western regimes could be trusted as strategic allies until it was too late.

I dont know that anyone lately has considered Iran a strategic ally. As for Pakistan, its not clear if shes talking about teh old govt or the new govt - of course its all absurd anyway. And so it boils down to the absurd Turkish -Russian parallel.

So much for Ms Glick.

Posted by superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-12 10:02|| 2008-08-12 10:02|| Front Page Top

#15 Pheew! I have NO experience with any of this stuff at all. Just color me an interested reader. But little old Georgia sure has whatever appendages you folks might have, in a wringer and is squeezing them tight. It will be helpful to me to understand, if you use facts more and passion less. Thanks.

Posted by Richard of Oregon 2008-08-12 10:06|| 2008-08-12 10:06|| Front Page Top

#16 TW, that profane attack on phil_b was not posted by Old Spook.

Posted by lotp 2008-08-12 10:11|| 2008-08-12 10:11|| Front Page Top

#17 Whoops -- my mistake! Thank you, lotp. My heartfelt apologies, OldSpook. Clearly I need to pay closer attention. (A new brain also wouldn't hurt, but is not in my budget just yet.)

Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife 2008-08-12 10:21|| 2008-08-12 10:21|| Front Page Top

#18 Trailing Wife aka "shootin from the hip!"

:D

Posted by Mad Eye 2008-08-12 10:28|| 2008-08-12 10:28|| Front Page Top

#19 I half-suspect that the Russians will find proof that the Georgians were the ones that massacred the Armenians, thus assuring Turkeys friendship and support and giving other useful idiots with limited historical knowledge another talking point.

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-12 12:35|| 2008-08-12 12:35|| Front Page Top

#20 What a self important cunt you are too.

Nobody likes to be told they don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps that's me or perhaps that's you. I'll leave it up the Burgundians to decide.

Posted by phil_b 2008-08-12 14:01|| 2008-08-12 14:01|| Front Page Top

#21 What a self important cunt you are too.

Nobody likes to be told they don't know what they are talking about. Perhaps that's me or perhaps that's you. I'll leave it up the Burgundians to decide.

Posted by phil_b 2008-08-12 14:01|| 2008-08-12 14:01|| Front Page Top

#22 Burgundians? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Posted by superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-12 14:03|| 2008-08-12 14:03|| Front Page Top

#23 trailing wife:

You are not helping the epidemic of personal attacks here. Have you read the letter (Gamsakhurdia to Shevardnadze) that I posted? Have you or the posters without spell-check, googled Gamsakhurdia, to understand Georgian feeling for a man who is second to Stalin in the public estimate? The current government of Georgia isn't worth a Cold War. As for moral resolve, we tossed nothing but rhetoric bombs at Sudan, over the Darfur tragedy.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-12 14:34|| 2008-08-12 14:34|| Front Page Top

#24 lotp:

How about spelling out the rules on personal attacks, use of profanity and stalking?

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-12 14:36|| 2008-08-12 14:36|| Front Page Top

#25 Mcshake -

No one is obligated to follow your links. If they dont, copy here.

as for Sudan, ive supported vigorous action. that we havent done more is in part due to your freinds in Moscow, and in part due to people like you.

Posted by superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-12 14:38|| 2008-08-12 14:38|| Front Page Top

#26 and the rules on offtopic posting, and on bigotry?

Posted by superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-12 14:39|| 2008-08-12 14:39|| Front Page Top

#27 McZoid, I didn't have time to read that very old letter but I did read the other link you posted (Arrogant Georgians dug their own grave) and when I read the first paragraph, I knew which side you were on.

http://brianakira.wordpress.com/2008/08/11/arrogant-georgians-dug-their-own-grave/

Considering Americas war crimes in Bosnia and Serbia, and considering the fact that the US ambassador to the UN is a Sunni Muslim Afghan citizen who is contemplating replacing Karzai as Afghan president, Ill tentatively side with Russia in the matter of South Ossetia and Abkhazia. At least Id remain neutral between Russia and Georgia.

What American War crimes? I can list plenty of Serbian war crimes which they are procecuting now. The writer contradicts himself when he says he sides with Russia, then says he's neutral.

OS might have had a temper last night but he was right about you! Your history is all screwed up, comrade!

Posted by Jiggs Chiter5628 2008-08-12 14:40|| 2008-08-12 14:40|| Front Page Top

#28 M: Georgia aided and abetted Chechen terror.

This is indeed the Russian claim. I had taken this at face value and explained why this wasn't beyond the pale (much as our WWII alliance with the mass-murdering Soviets wasn't). Now that I think about it, it seems to me that the Russians lie reflexively - it was they who spread the claim that the CIA invented AIDS to kill blacks - something that the Reverend Wright merely parroted in his sermons.

Why would I take this Russian claim at face value? Maybe I shouldn't. If the Russian military lost ten thousand dead fighting the Chechens, how could Georgia be expected to stop them in their tracks? Remember - this is the same Georgian military that is crumbling before the Russian military, and displaying none of the skill and fanatical bravery the Chechens showed in Grozny. How is it Georgia's problem that Russia couldn't outfight the Chechens during the initial years of the Chechen War?

You could argue that the problem with Russia has with Georgia is the problem the US has with Pakistan. But that would be wrong. Pakistan's military is clearly more powerful than the Taliban. Georgia's military was not manifestly more powerful than the Chechen insurgency. Pakistan has clearly funded the jihadis, both in Afghanistan and India. Georgia has not.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2008-08-12 14:42|| http://timurileng.blogspot.com]">[http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2008-08-12 14:42|| Front Page Top

#29 OMG!!!! Khalilzad is a Sunni Muslim. The US MUST be wrong because of that.

This is the way the Panslavs argue.

Posted by superstitiousGalitizianer 2008-08-12 14:43|| 2008-08-12 14:43|| Front Page Top

#30 Yes, McZoid, I read the letter from a prisoner of conscience to an old and successful Soviet appartchik, recounting his sins. I'm afraid I see in it no justification for the current Russian invasion of the Georgian heartland, nor do I see why I should be surprised by what Shevardnaze has done (appalled, of course, but I've been well aware of Soviet atrocities since I was a child).

Like all in the former Soviet empire, there are few Georgians who were able to avoid at least sipping of its evil, let alone drinking deeply. Reports of those who had reported on others to the East German secret police, for example, which started to become public when we lived in that part of the world, included some of the most beloved of their intellectuals and dissidents, not to mention almost everyone else. Unlike the Nazis, who were in power for about a decade, the Soviet totalitarians ruled for the better part of a century. Should I be surprised at how few innocents there are in post-Soviet politics in that part of the world? The wonder is that citizens and politicians have appeared to partake of the joys of freedom and democracy!

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-08-12 15:36|| 2008-08-12 15:36|| Front Page Top

23:42 Spike Uniter
23:41 Zhang Fei
23:35 Spike Uniter
23:34 Chuck Simmins
23:34 JosephMendiola
23:32 Zhang Fei
23:28 phil_b
23:27 Zhang Fei
23:24 JosephMendiola
23:10 JosephMendiola
23:08 phil_b
22:49 Waldemar Uneack9263
22:49 Hupoque Oppressor of the Sith6694
22:44 Abdominal Snowman
22:40 phil_b
22:12 Nimble Spemble
22:05 JosephMendiola
21:57 GDLotA9226
21:39 JosephMendiola
21:39 Pappy
21:37 McZoid
21:33 Pappy
21:31 phil_b
21:29 McZoid