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2008-08-10 Caucasus/Russia/Central Asia
Russian jets targeted major oil pipeline: Georgia
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Posted by Bulldog 2008-08-10 05:31|| || Front Page|| [11130 views ]  Top

#1 Hmmm. Didn't Clinton attack sovereign Serbia because they didn't like their treatment of their Muslim minority? Some bozos want to NATOize Georgia now, so that they can use Article 5 - military assistance provision - to defend Georgia's territorial integrity. Risk broad war with a nuclear power in the name of Georgia's "freedom" to oppress Russians.

I question if their is a single Western leader or politician who could define "self determination" and "territorial integrity."

Reminder: 350,000 Chaldean and 200,000 Mandean Christians have been cleansed from Iraq since 2003. Good or bad or screw anyone who asks?
Posted by McZoid 2008-08-10 05:58||   2008-08-10 05:58|| Front Page Top

#2 what?
Posted by Zoids R Us 2008-08-10 07:18||   2008-08-10 07:18|| Front Page Top

#3 McZoid, you seem to miss or at least IMO undervalue the stranglehold that Russia will have on energy supplies to much of the world if they can take over the alternate pipeline. THAT's what defending Georgia is about, in good part.
Posted by lotp 2008-08-10 08:10||   2008-08-10 08:10|| Front Page Top

#4 Nuts lotp, that pipeline is a sitting target for Soody inspaired Jihadis anyway.
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-08-10 08:27||   2008-08-10 08:27|| Front Page Top

#5 Reminder: 350,000 Chaldean and 200,000 Mandean Christians have been cleansed from Iraq since 2003
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-08-10 08:28||   2008-08-10 08:28|| Front Page Top

#6 Sory, meant to say "You don't see the big picture, MZ".
Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-08-10 08:30||   2008-08-10 08:30|| Front Page Top

#7 South Ossetia seceded from Georgia. Georgia is trying to force them back in the fold. Imagine Texas seceding from the union and Mexico sending troops there to help them. We wouldn't like that much would we? That's the same thing that is happening in Georgia, so give em a break McZoid.
Posted by Gromp Prince of the Geats8061 2008-08-10 09:32||   2008-08-10 09:32|| Front Page Top

#8 The numbers I've seen (here) say the number of Chaldeans that have left is lower than your figures by a factor of five or so; I suspect since most of them went to Jordan or Syria, that they'll probably be returning because the civil war in Iraq has been dying down.

I doubt that our membership in "Christian Civilization" means we're bound to be neutral at best in the matter of "Christian" Russia (where the KGB controlled the ordination of priests for roughly three-quarters of a century) bomb another country that is also predominantly Christian.
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-08-10 12:20||   2008-08-10 12:20|| Front Page Top

#9 Is Georgia predominately Christaian ?
Posted by wxjames 2008-08-10 13:54||   2008-08-10 13:54|| Front Page Top

#10 Yes. Orthodox.
Posted by john frum 2008-08-10 14:18||   2008-08-10 14:18|| Front Page Top

#11 Yes. Why?
Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-08-10 14:24||   2008-08-10 14:24|| Front Page Top

#12 some background info from comments at blackfive

"well, just read an article through one of the posted links 'ezhednevny zhurnal' and in this article the author lays out the following facts: Russia has been preparing for the military action in S.Osetia for quite a while; Russia has been fermenting the separatist movements in both S. Osetia and Abkhazia since the very beginning in order to ensure Georgia's ineligibility for NATO membership; the actions of issuing Russian passports and recognizing legal property rights of the people of these areas shall be clearly and legally construed as annexation of the territories in question. However, the opionion is this war would be bad for Russia in the eyes of the international community if Russia could not occupy, clean up and force cease fire by Monday."
Posted by Legolas 2008-08-10 14:50||   2008-08-10 14:50|| Front Page Top

#13 in the name of Georgia's "freedom" to oppress Russian

How so?

Seems to me Georgia has always been the victim of Russian oppression. There is good reason the US is helping Georgia try to take back the region, because there are a ton of jihadist freely roaming around the gorges.

Also those "Russians" you say were oppressed, are you talking about the ones that Russia gave passports to but who really live on Georgian territory?
Posted by Ulomoting the Imposter2831 2008-08-10 16:04||   2008-08-10 16:04|| Front Page Top

#14 Facts now:

A Georgian minister says Georgian troops have pulled out of Tbilisi — the capital of the breakaway province of South Ossetia — under massive Russian shelling.

Other online sources cite continued massive artillery barrage of the city overnight, essentially demolishing the capital of S.O., and inflictgin huge numbers of civlian casualties due to indiscriminate targeting and "WW2" style massive barrages.

Sounds to me liek the Russians haven;t changed since the Red Army days in terms of deliberately inflicting civilian casualties and reducing cities to rubble.

"Peackeeping" my ass - this is a thug army of a thug country led by a thug gangster -- Putin.

Punishment is in order.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-10 16:42||   2008-08-10 16:42|| Front Page Top

#15 correciton NOT Tiblisi (thats the cap of Georgia proper), its Tskhinvali (brain was thinking one thing, fingers typed another).
Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-10 16:43||   2008-08-10 16:43|| Front Page Top

#16 Overt act of war by Russia:

A naval blockade of the coast.

Among freighters halted with warning shots was a Moldovan-flagged vessel carrying wheat to the Poti port, threatening Georgia's food supplies.

I wonder what would happen if we sent a destroyer on a call up that way to exercise the right of free navigation to a country that Russian claims it is NOT officially at war with...

Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-10 16:46||   2008-08-10 16:46|| Front Page Top

#17 Stalin was born in Gori, Georgia. Putin is getting sentimental.
Posted by Glimble Hapsburg1150 2008-08-10 16:53||   2008-08-10 16:53|| Front Page Top

#18 to be quite clear - Clinton spent weeks trying to get a deal with Serbia, during which time the Serbs continued the removal of Kosovar Albanians. IF the Georgians were ethnically cleansing the So Ossetians, they did so MUCH faster than the Serbs, since there were, IF you believe the Russian version, only a few hours in between the Georgian "invasion" of S Ossetia, and the russian "peace keeping operation". Fast work, and NO appeal to the UNSC or anyone else by the Russians.

I note as well, when asked for evidence, the Russian ambassador seems to have replied with only numbers - something on the lines of "2000 are dead, how many more have to die before you call it genocide?"

Well, obviously its not a question of numbers, but of intent. If its numbers, than Russia has committed genocide in Chechnya.

FAct is, Russia is just pissed. Theyre pissed that they Georgia is humiliating them by its definace. Theyre pissed that Kosovo declared independence. Theyre pissed that they arent what they were before Gorby.

And now theyve got money, cause of the price of oil, the US looks overstretched, the euro leaders (Brown, Merkel, Sarkozy) all have domestic problems - this is the time to go in and push the prez of Georgia out, and let everyone in the "former Soviet space" know that "the correlation of forces" has changed - also to remind the Eastern europeans as well.

I think they may be making a mistake. I have seen no reports indicating that the population of georgia is wavering. They need to get over the shock of the loss of S Ossetia and the Kodori Gorge (KG isnt gone yet, but it soon will be) and realize that simply to survive in defiance, poking across the new border in S ossetia once in a while is victory. if Putin goes over the border then, he will only unite them against him. Maybe.
Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-10 17:08||   2008-08-10 17:08|| Front Page Top

#19 They may prefer to move on, to rebuild their country and integrate it into the EU.
Posted by john frum 2008-08-10 17:29||   2008-08-10 17:29|| Front Page Top

#20 I don't think Putin will stop at the border. No evidence, just my take on things.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2008-08-10 17:50||   2008-08-10 17:50|| Front Page Top

#21 Russians are anti-Stalinists. Stalin is like a god in Georgia. We might as well bring Saudi Arabia and Iran into NATO.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-10 19:07||   2008-08-10 19:07|| Front Page Top

#22 McZoid you have to be the stupidest fucking moron on the internet, or at least on Rantburg.

Back that BS argument up sonny and be prepared for me to slice and dice EVERY bit of morononical drivel you spew on this board. I'll rip your ass to shreds.

Why? Because not only are you wrong, you're a fucking ignorant fool, a wanna-be Nazi, a bigot and porobably a racist. You haven't a clue, much less a brain.

Now back your arguments up or get the fuck out of here, jackass. You're adding N to the S:N ratio here with your idiotic blather.

You're worse than the bigot Aris - at least at times he could overcome his prejudices. You seem incapable of it.
Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-10 19:16||   2008-08-10 19:16|| Front Page Top

#23 Russian Anti-Stalinist - Prove it dickhead.

" We might as well bring Saudi Arabia and Iran into NATO."

Prima facia proof that you are a fucking moron of the lowest grade to compare them to the Ukraine.

Care to try again you worthless peice of shit?
Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-10 19:17||   2008-08-10 19:17|| Front Page Top

#24 Stalin like a god?

Gimme a break, you idiot - are you living in 1952? Seems like it. Try 2008, a western oriented democaracy with a popular president, freely elected, who has over 2000 troops helping us in Iraq.

So again, you're showing how damned stupid you are. And your bigoted room temperature IQ is on display as well.

Are you an apologists for gangster - a thug like them? You sure seem to be. Prove that you arent - show us a single shred of unbigoted unbiased thought.
Posted by OldSpook 2008-08-10 19:22||   2008-08-10 19:22|| Front Page Top

#25 Old Spook...the Red Army invented reducing cities to rubble?Try again,nitwit.The good old Allies did it in WW2 from the air,prior to that as well.Gandhi said"It doesn't much matter to the dead if they were killed by communist or democratic bombs."Killing large numbers of civilians for political purposes?Hiroshima,my man.BTW,Pearl Harbor was allowed to happen.(Please don't tell me it was a "sneak attack.")
Posted by Franklin Coverup 2008-08-10 19:47||   2008-08-10 19:47|| Front Page Top

#26 [Ar is has been pooplisted.]
Posted by Ar is 2008-08-10 19:51||   2008-08-10 19:51|| Front Page Top

#27 [A.ris has been pooplisted.]
Posted by A.ris 2008-08-10 19:52||   2008-08-10 19:52|| Front Page Top

#28 FC, the Allies might have invented it (for good reason, I might ass), but the Russians perfected it. There was no military reason to reduce these Georgian cities to rubble. They did it because they could, not because it was necessary. Bugwit.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2008-08-10 19:53||   2008-08-10 19:53|| Front Page Top

#29 On second thought, I believe the Germans invented it, starting with Guernica. The Japanese took up the practice against the Chinese and then the Germans tried to "Coventry" London. You are a Bugwit, FC.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2008-08-10 19:57||   2008-08-10 19:57|| Front Page Top

#30 Anyone remember what happened to Carthage?
Posted by mrp 2008-08-10 20:02||   2008-08-10 20:02|| Front Page Top

#31 don't forget to salt the fields after you burn the cities...
Posted by linker 2008-08-10 20:12||   2008-08-10 20:12|| Front Page Top

#32 http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4500362.ece

georgians feel betrayed - don't blame them - they stepped up and the world looks away - kind of hard to look in the mirror for me as an american now- I know we don't want a shooting war with Russia over this ... but this is not good at all
Posted by Legolas 2008-08-10 20:24||   2008-08-10 20:24|| Front Page Top

#33 It's not really over. The U.S. is flying back the 2,000 man brigade Georgia has had in Iraq, and one assumes we've been loading them up with whatever can be stuffed into the spare spaces on our airplanes. Not to mention the latest satellite information and whatever else we know. The U.S. ambassador let loose at the U.N., so that's the diplomatic end of things ticked off the list, and the nearby countries are starting to speak out and act, cf. the Ukraine denying their ports to the Russian navy, and the leaders of the three Baltic countries declaring in one voice that Russia's behaviour is unacceptable.

Aris, I've no doubt you've been speaking up about this, but I'm not sure it's been here at Rantburg. I've no memory of arguments about that, and you'd developed a tendency to provoke arguments here, whether intentionally or no. By the way, your arguments about Russia's further actions make sense to me.

It will be interesting to see what President Bush does next. Certainly we can expect Europe will do little more than spout platitudes while wringing their collective hands.
Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife  2008-08-10 21:03||   2008-08-10 21:03|| Front Page Top

#34 Separately, OldSpook dear, please calm down a bit. While I find it educational when you go all Master Sergeant, I'm not sure McZoid deserves quite as much as all that. He means well, and he does not attack others unprovoked as Zenster did at the end -- however heartfelt and researched his positions may have been -- much to the dismay of many.
Posted by trailing wife">trailing wife  2008-08-10 21:08||   2008-08-10 21:08|| Front Page Top

#35 "If Russia's allowed to annex Georgia, it very soon (5-10 years or less) will turn its eyes either to Ukraine and/or the Baltics."

Eastern Europe is screwed because it has many sympathisers among the older generation, and those who didn't see the benefits after communism collapsed. The younger folks may have seen the light after the expansion of the EU since they see themselves more as European citizens, able to travel wherever the work is. They won't take too kindly to anyone has tries to mess that up, i.e. Russia.

That's why it's critical that Ukraine be helped along in joining the EU, though I suspect that eastern Ukraine may have to be written off.

Getting the Serbs aboard the EU boat might help too.

On a side note, Canada better start beefing up its military presence in the north, lota land up there.
Posted by Cromoter Platypus6907 2008-08-10 21:25||   2008-08-10 21:25|| Front Page Top

#36 edit: They won't take too kindly to anyone who tries to mess that up, i.e. Russia.
Posted by Cromoter Platypus6907 2008-08-10 21:27||   2008-08-10 21:27|| Front Page Top

#37 edit: Eastern Europe is screwed because it has many Russian sympathisers among the older generation...

:/
Posted by Cromoter Platypus6907 2008-08-10 21:30||   2008-08-10 21:30|| Front Page Top

#38 You're perfectly right pointing at pro-stalinist sentiments in Georgia, McZoid.

Let the pictures speak (and support your arguments):
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Statue_of_Stalin,_Gori

Somehow, there's no monument of Hitler in Austrian Braunau-am-Inn...
Posted by Matt K. 2008-08-10 21:39||   2008-08-10 21:39|| Front Page Top

#39 FREEREPUBLIC/TOPIX > GURADIAN.uk - THIS ISN'T A PIPELINE WAR. ITS AN ASSAULT/ATTACKS AGZ RUSSIAN INFLUENCE.

FREEREPUB Poster > Ala STRATFOR, etc analyses, this is about the Eastern European Nations and Russ desire to reconstitute the former Soviet Empire-Bloc = Cold War "sphere of influence", right before our eyes.
Posted by JosephMendiola 2008-08-10 23:35||   2008-08-10 23:35|| Front Page Top

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