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2005-07-22 Britain
'SUICIDE BOMBER' SHOT
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Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 05:55|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 I forgot the hattip to Shep UK.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 05:58||   2005-07-22 05:58|| Front Page Top

#2 Hehehe bang bang bang...we don't take no prisoners...UK police is doing a good job.
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-22 06:03||   2005-07-22 06:03|| Front Page Top

#3 And now armed police have surrounded a mosque in east london.

Does the met have a bulldozer squad?
Posted by Elliot Swan 2005-07-22 06:06||   2005-07-22 06:06|| Front Page Top

#4 A big RB 'bang bang bangety bang' Let's have some more..
Posted by Howard UK 2005-07-22 06:08||   2005-07-22 06:08|| Front Page Top

#5 Does the met have a bulldozer squad?

Preferently a Caterpillar. Still better if it is a Rachel Corrie model.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2005-07-22 06:10||   2005-07-22 06:10|| Front Page Top

#6 Their bombs don't work and their soldiers get shot....this must be a big mental blow...
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-22 06:14||   2005-07-22 06:14|| Front Page Top

#7 Reports said the suspect was pushed to the ground and shot five times at close range.

Yikes. The fascist sympathizers will have a field day with this one. Talk about becoming a martyr.
Posted by gromky">gromky  2005-07-22 06:14|| http://communistposters.com/]">[http://communistposters.com/]  2005-07-22 06:14|| Front Page Top

#8 Maybe he was wired and they just had to take him down....
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-22 06:18||   2005-07-22 06:18|| Front Page Top

#9 It's going to make it harder to question him, though...
Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-22 06:27||   2005-07-22 06:27|| Front Page Top

#10 There was a bit of a "contreversy" in 200-2001 when the "Vrai journal", a leftist "unPC" tv show depicted an israeli shooting a would-be suicide bomber in the head at point-blank range while he was held lying down; fact is, the paleo was rubbing his belly to the ground, trying to set off the detonation of his belt. This is a good reminder than when facing people who wish to die, taking others with them, it is not the time to be squeamish. If police shooted down that guy in cold blood, I say good for them, no sense in risking a bloodbath by playing by their rules.

They want to be barbarian? Let them taste the legitimate use of force by trained people... tougher than slaughtering innocents, isn't it?
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-07-22 06:27||   2005-07-22 06:27|| Front Page Top

#11 Better safe than sorry. Especially if there are people in the blast zone. Place would have been crowded. Wonder if they'd been tailing him for long. They might already know all they need to about the guy - could have been following him from the moment he left his house...
Posted by Bulldog 2005-07-22 06:29||   2005-07-22 06:29|| Front Page Top

#12 BBC news - "I saw an Asian guy run onto the train hotly pursued by three plain-clothes police officers.

"One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him.


BTW, 'Asian' in the UK means south asian, rather than east asian as it does elsewhere.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 06:30||   2005-07-22 06:30|| Front Page Top

#13 BTW, 'Asian' in the UK means south asian, rather than east asian as it does elsewhere.

Indeed. That's where the vast majority of our Asians are from, so it kinda makes sense...
Posted by Bulldog 2005-07-22 06:32||   2005-07-22 06:32|| Front Page Top

#14 Now they have surrounded a mosque in East London (who woulda thunk?)

Perhaps the imam should be similarly dispatched.
Posted by DanNY 2005-07-22 06:33||   2005-07-22 06:33|| Front Page Top

#15 So when do we see the first person asking if it would have been right to shoot from such a close range??? Anyone?
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-22 06:36||   2005-07-22 06:36|| Front Page Top

#16 More like "Why did it take five shots in the head?"
Posted by DanNY 2005-07-22 06:38||   2005-07-22 06:38|| Front Page Top

#17 I imagine Shama Chakrabati and Liberty are going to be salivating over this incident. Fuck 'em.
Posted by Howard UK 2005-07-22 06:41||   2005-07-22 06:41|| Front Page Top

#18 Bulldog, I've worked a lot with non-english speakers and the fact we use the same word to mean different things in different places baffles the hell out of them.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 06:43||   2005-07-22 06:43|| Front Page Top

#19 The Beeb has a solid eyewitness account that they've not had time to spin yet. They also just had their eyewitness on the tube. He's at a bar "having a nice stiff scotch." Good man. ;)
Posted by AzCat 2005-07-22 06:54||   2005-07-22 06:54|| Front Page Top

#20 They're reporting that the mosque was evacuated due to a bomb scare but nothing was found.
Posted by AzCat 2005-07-22 06:57||   2005-07-22 06:57|| Front Page Top

#21 Note this almost 24 hours after the 4 dud bombs, so I doubt this one of those boomers on the run. Sounds like another bomber.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 06:59||   2005-07-22 06:59|| Front Page Top

#22 Sounds like it Phil.
Posted by Shipman 2005-07-22 07:01||   2005-07-22 07:01|| Front Page Top

#23 Opps I meant, sounds like they were following one of yesterdays dud boys.
Posted by Shipman 2005-07-22 07:02||   2005-07-22 07:02|| Front Page Top

#24 There's a bloke on Sky News at the moment (an ex-Special Branch Officer) saying that this can be blamed on the 60's-70's 'Paki-Bashing' and how these kids would then be susceptible to AQ influences. Hmmmm...

He's just said that AQ are 'Head-hunting' these people - somewhat of an 'insensitive comment' considering what's happened today ;)
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 07:16||   2005-07-22 07:16|| Front Page Top

#25 Also, Sky is reporting that the home of the black suicide bomber from two weeks ago has been the target of an arson attack.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 07:18||   2005-07-22 07:18|| Front Page Top

#26 I wonder how long it will take for the Usual Useful Idiots to start calling this an "execution-style murder" by the police...
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2005-07-22 07:22||   2005-07-22 07:22|| Front Page Top

#27 The news feeds are virtually raw - they're asking people their names on air and mobile phone numbers too!

The bloke that saw the shooting has been taken away by the Special Branch (you didn't see nuffink - ok?).

Apparently there were up to eight armed coppers on the tube at Stockwell - the bomber seems to have been under surveillance.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 07:25||   2005-07-22 07:25|| Front Page Top

#28 Time to get the Socialists out! Blame it on the police and society .....The terrorists had no other choise than to blow up.....
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-22 07:28||   2005-07-22 07:28|| Front Page Top

#29 DutchGeek, I was *just* thinking that - we need a leader with balls, like Thatcher! :) - we *don't* need any more Gramscian Socialist clap-trap.

I do wonder what would happen if the UK was a concealed-carry society? Would the 7/7 attacks have had a chance of taking place?

What would be the likelihood of a suicide attack in somewhere like Texas where lots of peope are armed?
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 07:38||   2005-07-22 07:38|| Front Page Top

#30 - the bomber seems to have been under surveillance.

ok son, you're free to go. Saay, here' a nice new belt for you to wear and some tickets for the tube. Run along now, and if anyone tells you to stop - you just keep right on going. Cheery-oh
Posted by 2b 2005-07-22 07:41||   2005-07-22 07:41|| Front Page Top

#31 sian man with big rucksack,beard and shaven head getting chased through station- lept a barrier with about 9 or 10 plain clothed armed men chasing him,eye wittnesses on t.v say he was like a scared rabbit being chased,think he got onto the train ,the guys chasing ran in told everyone to gett out and then zapped him with 3 rouns- mp5 would that be on semi auto? i dont know guns but sounds like it could be. we was straight away but air ambulance went there apparently.real stuff of movies people say like a film. perhaps one of yesterdays failed Osamanauts that was hunted down like a rabid animal. Very good news though.give the guys who chased the fcker a prize/medal. No pack of 'Sun-Maid' raisens for this gy haha
Posted by Shep UK 2005-07-22 07:42||   2005-07-22 07:42|| Front Page Top

#32 The point I try to make is that we see the same patterns here in Europe and the UK. Always those "experts" or weak politiciance telling us it that it is our fault that those terrorist act in this way. Well they don't care about arms they care about becoming a martyr or not...so as long as Texans marinate their bullets in pigs fat they'll stay away....general Pershing did the same in the Philipines...
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-22 07:48||   2005-07-22 07:48|| Front Page Top

#33 A good comparison is Israel, where a lot of people are armed, but where the *best* weapon against suicide bombers is public awareness, cf. security guards, concerned citizens,... who managed to spot, and even sometimes to repel attacks before they happen, or died trying.

That everyone pack is not a big plus, what's important is that people can detect telltale signs, read body language, profile wisely,... and even in a battle-hardened society like Israel, with a long military draft, with effective security services that handle well the threat, would-be bombers are very sophisticated (posing as orthodox jews, soldiers,...) and still manage to slip through the net.

This public awareness goes also for the aftermath; soldiers on leave often carry first aid kits to help the wounded if they happen to be present, bystanders know how to help, rescue services are instantly deployed and aware of the dirty tricks of the terrs (second wave attacks on them),...

Frankly, I doubt the western public would be so seasoned and prepared, concealed carry or not.
Posted by anonymous5089 2005-07-22 07:52||   2005-07-22 07:52|| Front Page Top

#34 Dutchgeek, the Fox reporter was way ahead of you earlier this morning. " What if he was innocent? If he had a bomb, why didn't it go off when he was killed? Everybody knows suicide bombers ALWAYS have their bombes rigged to blow up if they are killed before they can set it off." Totally wanking aswipe of a reporter.
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2005-07-22 07:56||   2005-07-22 07:56|| Front Page Top

#35 It's a bit troubling since they usually planned these things as coordinated attacks. Are they so disrupted that they are acting on their own? Or?
Posted by 2b 2005-07-22 07:57||   2005-07-22 07:57|| Front Page Top

#36 DanNY:
re "Why did it take five shots in the head?"

Maybe that's all the rounds he had in his gun for some reason?
Posted by glenmore">glenmore  2005-07-22 08:00||   2005-07-22 08:00|| Front Page Top

#37 2b my money says that this is one of yesterday's failed splodeydopes back with a fresh load. Even as stupid as jihadis are surely they'd know that the day after an attempted attack would be absolutely the worst possible time to follow up with another.
Posted by AzCat 2005-07-22 08:14||   2005-07-22 08:14|| Front Page Top

#38 "What would be the likelihood of a suicide attack in somewhere like Texas where lots of peope are armed?"

I don't think it would really make very much difference in a case like this.

Burglaries and home invasions, now that's a different story...
Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-22 08:28||   2005-07-22 08:28|| Front Page Top

#39 Paki with a packy = fill with lead until dead?
Posted by OldSpook 2005-07-22 08:33||   2005-07-22 08:33|| Front Page Top

#40 Azcat, you are falling into the same error as everyone else - treating this as an isolated incident. What is happening is AQ/Jihadi Inc/the Evil Materminds are scaling up to a repeatable process. It just took them longer than it would most others.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 08:41||   2005-07-22 08:41|| Front Page Top

#41 SKY: Man was not carrying bomb. He was firm suspect in London bombing, police followed him from home, he was wearing a heavy coat. He ran into subway and vaulted over ticket stile. Cops chased him down and when he wouldn't stop shot him dead.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-22 08:42||   2005-07-22 08:42|| Front Page Top

#42 Sorry Steve, but I don't believe this. The eyewitnesses clearly say he was down with officers on top of him before he was shot. Either they believed he was a boomer or someone got triggerhappy. And why the heavy coat in the hot weather - hell of a disguise!
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 08:47||   2005-07-22 08:47|| Front Page Top

#43 They didn't know he wasn't carrying a bomb vest under that coat, he was the suspect of the Oval Street booming yesterday. Yes, they did cap him after he was down, so what? You have to kill them before they can trigger the device.
Posted by Steve">Steve  2005-07-22 08:52||   2005-07-22 08:52|| Front Page Top

#44 How is that incompatible with the Sky account, Phil? He was under observation, left house dressed 'to kill', got to the tube before he could be intercepted, made a break for it, tripped/took one in the leg, fell, was immobilised bodily, and plugged to be sure. How would they know he was running to avoid capture or so he could buy time to prepare to blow himself? No trigger-happiness required. Perfectly rational.
Posted by Bulldog 2005-07-22 08:53||   2005-07-22 08:53|| Front Page Top

#45 Flasher maybe? hehe couldnt resist, perhaps Allan told him to go flashing
Posted by Shep UK 2005-07-22 08:54||   2005-07-22 08:54|| Front Page Top

#46 Sky is showing a live feed from a Mosque in Birmingham, with a voiceover by some guy who actually said that maybe they ought to look at the fact that the Koran was written 1400+ years ago "a product of its time". The Imam sounds like a real fire and brimstone guy - lots of shouting.

Whilst he's saying this, a poll popped up asking whether Muslims thought of themselves as British or Muslim - the result:
46% - Muslim first
42% - No preference
12% - British
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 08:55||   2005-07-22 08:55|| Front Page Top

#47 I bet the investigators are pissed.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-22 08:55||   2005-07-22 08:55|| Front Page Top

#48 I bet the investigators are pissed.

'Suicide by cop', maybe? They could hardly have taken him alive. A good result, but still no cigar raisins.
Posted by Bulldog 2005-07-22 08:58||   2005-07-22 08:58|| Front Page Top

#49 Cliches are cliches because they are often true. They always return to the scene of the crime.
Posted by Tibor 2005-07-22 09:01||   2005-07-22 09:01|| Front Page Top

#50 'Suicide by cop', maybe? He certainly was high profile, jumping the turnstiles and all. If he didn't have a bomb - why not just stop. I prefer to think of it as a crossfire incident :-)
Posted by 2b 2005-07-22 09:01||   2005-07-22 09:01|| Front Page Top

#51 Cops chased him down and when he wouldn't stop shot him dead. The eyewitnesses clearly say he was stopped with cops on top of him. Maybe he was dressed for the boom, without the bomb vest. Personally I doubt it. I think he had the vest and the police are managing the news.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 09:02||   2005-07-22 09:02|| Front Page Top

#52 No Phil, I agree with you that what we're seeing is at least an attempt to scale this up into a regular routine but, assuming that the London jihadis have limited resources (i.e., a limited number of potential splodeydopes) it doesn't make sense that this would be a different individual because: 1) today would be the worst time to try this if you actually wanted to succeed as everyone's still on a hair trigger after yesterday; and 2) terrorism works by keeping the public scared, another boom today might scare the public but if the intrepid jihadi were to wait a few weeks before attempting to earn his raisins the tactic would be more effective because it would re-raise public fears just as they were subsiding. But there is a clear error in my thinking: I attribute some semblance of logic to the jihadis.
Posted by AzCat 2005-07-22 09:10||   2005-07-22 09:10|| Front Page Top

#53 No doubt another "good lad" as would be the other perp's. Surely nobody close to them had any idea at all either. The boys just got a little enraged about something and figured their religion required mass murder of innocent civilians among their countrymen. Makes perfect sense. The polls about UK muslim attitudes are telling. The Root Cause is what? Where is surrender weasel Galloway and his peers when a pummeling bag is needed?
Posted by MunkarKat 2005-07-22 09:12||   2005-07-22 09:12|| Front Page Top

#54 In 1993 in France a guy wired himself with explosives and took hostage a class of kindergarten children. Police dragged the negotiations until he feel asleep. Then they evacuated the children and shot the guy. The day after a woman friend of mine complained they should have tried to take him alive. Yeah right, the officers should have risked their lives for sparing a guy ready to cmmit mass murder on children.
Posted by JFM">JFM  2005-07-22 09:12||   2005-07-22 09:12|| Front Page Top

#55 Update - police attending 'incident' in the Harrow Road (North London) - with snipers. Also report of 'incident' at Moorgate (probably a tube station)
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 09:19||   2005-07-22 09:19|| Front Page Top

#56 No one can out run Mr. Heckler and Mr. Koch!

My $.02 on Tony(UK)'s question about concealed carry: I've got to agree with Dave D. and anonymous5089 for the most part. CCW is really best suited for reacting to unexpected personal danger rather than preventing determined acts of terrorism. Also the attacks such as 7/7 will always be hard to interdict in a free society. As long as the boomers can keep their cool and not draw a lot of attention, what citizen could reasonably pull their weapon and subdue every 'Asian' they encounter?

However comma I will contradict myself a little. While I don't think CCW makes the odds good that attacks like 7/7 can be stopped, I do think that CCW increases the odds slightly in favor of prevention.

The weighty responsibility of carrying concealed does tend to make one much more observant and threat-aware. As anonymous5089 stated, awareness is the best weapon. But CCW also gives one the means to do something about the threat other than shouting, "Run". I have heard anecdotal evidence of concealed-carry Israeli citizens stopping terrorist attacks in a similar fashion.

In summary, I think CCW would certainly help, but the terrorists always hold the initiative in these sorts of situations.

PyschoHillbilly
Confessions of a Redneck Gun Nut
Posted by Psycho Hillbilly 2005-07-22 09:21||   2005-07-22 09:21|| Front Page Top

#57 Azcat, I think you are perhaps the smartest regular here but there are a bunch of errors in that opinion. A repeatable process optimizes scarce/limited resources and that is not splodeydopes. The scarce resource is organizers/organization and technicians/bombmakers. This is all about tempo and people who know far more than me, emphasize the importance of tempo in military affairs. This has nothing to do with logic and everything to do with capacity. They are demonstrating their capacity.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 09:24||   2005-07-22 09:24|| Front Page Top

#58  Harrow Road resident tells the BBC police have told residents to stay indoors. He says there is a large police presence, which includes armed officers....shots fired according to witness....developing
Posted by Dutchgeek 2005-07-22 09:36||   2005-07-22 09:36|| Front Page Top

#59 I've just been thinking about this wanking that we will hear about the poor jihadi getting shot and it's really starting to tick me off.

Let me just say, for the record, that if I ever find myself ontop of a known AQ jihadi, suspected of having a bomb, if I don't have a gun to unload on him, I'll use a darn pencil if that's all I have available. These people make me sick.
Posted by 2b 2005-07-22 09:54||   2005-07-22 09:54|| Front Page Top

#60 Phil B identifies the targets to be taken down: the organizers and the bombmakers. For these guys: no warning, no mercy, no second chance. Bang.

Phil, let me add to the list: the holy men behind these jokers.
Posted by Steve White">Steve White  2005-07-22 09:59||   2005-07-22 09:59|| Front Page Top

#61 I suspect that after John Howards' spinal injection yesterday Tony may well stand up forthrightly for what the coppers did. Shoot first, ask questions later is bad policy in law enforcement but not war.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-07-22 10:06||   2005-07-22 10:06|| Front Page Top

#62 Whilst he's saying this, a poll popped up asking whether Muslims thought of themselves as British or Muslim - the result:

46% - Muslim first
42% - No preference
12% - British


Those are VERY discouraging numbers, in my opinion. They say, in other words, that only one British Muslim in 8 can be considered one of our much-prized "Moderate Muslims" without qualification.

Not good.

And I agree with Dr. Steve: pop the radical "holy men", too.
Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-22 10:11||   2005-07-22 10:11|| Front Page Top

#63 Phil I am, almost without a doubt, the dumbest regular here but (doubtless much to the chagrin of many) that's not yet had any impact on my urge to comment. ;)

Point taken re: resources but I think you're mistaken in analyzing this as a military affair. Terrorism is about frightening the public in order to cause the most disruption to their daily lives and impart the greatest psychological impact. Even if we assume that demonstrating tempo was the primary motive the jihadis showed their hand yesterday: 4 bombs (probably made from the same batch as the 7/7 explosive), 3 on tubes, 1 on a bus (all identical to 7/7 MO), same backpacks & explosives as 7/7 bombers. Clearly yesterday's actions were a demonstration of the repeatability of their 7/7 tactics and were intended as such.

But after going 0-for-4 yesterday I’m more inclined to believe that today's jihadi moron is more likely a Darwin Award candidate (4 fizzles / no booms yesterday, gee let’s try the rest of the batch … surely it’ll work better) than a demonstration of daily repeatability.
Posted by AzCat 2005-07-22 10:14||   2005-07-22 10:14|| Front Page Top

#64 My wager is that he was a dud killbot released specifically to draw enemy fire and make a big stinky public relations mess.
Posted by Seafarious">Seafarious  2005-07-22 10:52||   2005-07-22 10:52|| Front Page Top

#65 Well, that didn't take long...

Will police now shoot to kill?


A Muslim group has said it is concerned there is a new police "shoot to kill" policy in the UK following the shooting dead of a man in south London.
The Muslim Council of Britain said it was getting calls from Muslims who were "distressed" about the incident at Stockwell Tube station.


In the same article, Micheal Clarke, professor of defence studies at King's College London says;

"These guys may have been some sort of plain clothes special forces," he said.

"To have bullets pumped into him like this suggests quite a lot about him and what the authorities, whoever they are, assumed about him.

"The fact that he was shot in this way strongly suggests that it was someone the authorities knew and suspected he was carrying explosives on him."

He added: "You don't shoot somebody five times if you think you might have made a mistake and may be able to arrest him."

Prof Clarke said police officers were not trained to carry out operations in this way.

"Even Special Branch and SO19 (Scotland Yard's armed unit) are not trained to do this sort of thing.

"It's plausible that they were special forces or elements of special forces."

Mr Ramm said the danger of shooting a suspected suicide bomber in the body was that it could detonate a bomb they were carrying on them.

"The fact is that when you're dealing with suicide bombers they only way you can stop them effectively - and protect yourself - is to try for a head-shot," he said.


If he *is* innocent - big if, then it's regrettable. But you don't run away from armed police with the situation as it is today - that really *is* suicide.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 11:03||   2005-07-22 11:03|| Front Page Top

#66 BBC and CNN have run CCTV pics of the four "good lads" suspected in the day's boomer spree. Don't look like a bunch of Finns named Radar. Bet they are not Jehova's Witnesses either.
Posted by MunkarKat 2005-07-22 11:09||   2005-07-22 11:09|| Front Page Top

#67 I think this may have been an intelligence operation from the jihadi side. This guy may have been one of the escaped (or released) terr's from yesterday. The Jihadi's know that the UK has the whole town under survailence, and they needed to know how much the police forces knew. By parading this guy out - others in the jihadi network could determine if they were followed, and the reaction to this guys bolting in the underground let everyone know that the police forces knew EXACTLY who this guy was.

The jig is up - no more covert intelligence on the jihadi's by following the get-a-aways, might as well surround the moskkk where they came from.

That's my $.02

BTW - I don't comment much, but I visit quite regularly - This site ROCKS - keep it up
Posted by Robjack01">Robjack01  2005-07-22 11:20||   2005-07-22 11:20|| Front Page Top

#68 Innocent of what? Clearly, if they thought they needed to do this, it will turn out he was no innocent, regardless of his status with respect to any specific violation of the law.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-07-22 11:22||   2005-07-22 11:22|| Front Page Top

#69 Bhuddists?
Posted by Ulereger Clavigum6227 2005-07-22 11:26||   2005-07-22 11:26|| Front Page Top

#70 mrs D is correct - theres innocent, and innocent. Even if he wasnt carrying a suicide belt, he almost certainly was connected to the existing investigation, which is why he was being followed. Certainly shoot to kill should be reserved for actual suspected bombers, but one really cant say hes innocent only because hes not wearing a suicide belt (if that turns out to be the case)
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-22 11:30||   2005-07-22 11:30|| Front Page Top

#71 Dave D, the 1 in 8 statistics of British Moslems who seem to think of their religious belief as second to their nationality is not a sufficient sign of "moderate" Moslems. We have to take into account the Moslem habit of deception, taqiya.

The only reliable sign of a "moderate" Moslem would be someone who explicitly acknowledges and rejects taqiya, jihad as well as sharia --the tools of Islamic conquest and submission.

I'd like to see polls focused on these very specific attributes.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-22 11:34||   2005-07-22 11:34|| Front Page Top

#72 I know, Kalle; I was being generous.
Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-22 11:38||   2005-07-22 11:38|| Front Page Top

#73 Cry me a f*&king river. Pakis in Britain are facing a real fork in the road. Time to decide whether you give up the bad apples and the sources of infection, or face intolerance and hardship on a national scale. Reality bites, doesn't it? LH's mythical moderate muslim better step forward now, cuz heads are gonna get busted, that's just a fact
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-07-22 11:38||   2005-07-22 11:38|| Front Page Top

#74 Certainly shoot to kill should be reserved for actual suspected bombers...

Based on recent events, you could include any man of Asian appearance carrying a bag in that category.
Posted by Bulldog 2005-07-22 11:40||   2005-07-22 11:40|| Front Page Top

#75 Sorry Mrs. Davis, I wasn't being clear enough, I don't believe this guy was innocent *at all* - the response from the talking heads to what the police did has been almost shock - the coppers here simply don't do that. So if they have done something like that, then the chances are very very heavily in favour of this guy *not* being innocent.

In the current situation, if an armed copper tells you to stop - you'd better stop otherwise you're going to be very dead. And I will certainly cheer for that.
Posted by Tony (UK) 2005-07-22 11:43||   2005-07-22 11:43|| Front Page Top

#76 Tony, Understood. My point is really one about transitioning (sp? 2 n's?) from the law enforcement model to the combat model.

We are at war. Shoot first, ask questions later. I hope that is the policy and the message Tony B uses to explain what happened and why it will happen again to any enemy combatants. No apologies, no regrets, no excuses. Just another KIA.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-07-22 12:04||   2005-07-22 12:04|| Front Page Top

#77 I think whether they consider them Moslems first or British first is immaterial. For example though I am a proud American I first and foremost consider myself Christian. The issue is that being moslem is so at odds with society, it seems me like they have to choose one and destroy the other.
Posted by AmbiguityX 2005-07-22 12:09||   2005-07-22 12:09|| Front Page Top

#78 I think whether they consider them Moslems first or British first is immaterial. For example though I am a proud American I first and foremost consider myself Christian. The issue is that being moslem is so at odds with society, it seems me like they have to choose one and destroy the other.
Posted by AmbiguityX 2005-07-22 12:23||   2005-07-22 12:23|| Front Page Top

#79 I agree with the theory was wasn't no SO19 fireteam gunnin this fcker down,i too reackon some kind of military team, i'm gonna be cheesy as and say SAS but doubt it,any ideas on it anyone? will the pics ever be released of his headless - i assume torso? i do think uk anti terror guys need bigger cal weapons , 50cal sniper rifles and stuff,i dunno just bigger hitters i guess, maybe same cal but a nastier ammo should be used? Allan worshipers say they now live in fear of getting lead zapped in London, best stay indoors then eh ,hehe. Man on sky news in street ranted about bush and how it was him to blame too :) its starting to ammuse me now.
Posted by Glavins Glereting2921 2005-07-22 12:33||   2005-07-22 12:33|| Front Page Top

#80 Agree that the question is not very meaningful by itself, but the mode of answer is going to be different. The question changes implicit meaning according to one's beliefs.

Most Christians are happy with State and Church being separate realms. Personal salvation is a separate matter from political hegemony.

Moslems demand that all States be merged and integrated into their cult. Their vision of personal salvation is conditional on submission of all aspects of human life to their one political-religious authority. Hence a measure of their tolerance (call it "moderation" if you must) would be to ask them if the State in which they live should ultimately merge into Dar-al-Islam.

Here would be a useful project: what would constitute a modern, tolerant --''moderate"-- Moslem? what parts of traditional Islam would Western, peaceful people expect them to re-interpret or reject? and more importantly, are Moslems already working on it?
Posted by Mohammed 2005-07-22 12:38||   2005-07-22 12:38|| Front Page Top

#81 Sorry, that was me...
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-22 12:49||   2005-07-22 12:49|| Front Page Top

#82 Whew. That's a relief...
Posted by Dave D. 2005-07-22 12:54||   2005-07-22 12:54|| Front Page Top

#83 I am betting regular armed police or a unknown and previously unknown police squad. 5 rounds to the head suggests 9mm.

The head of the Londom Metro police refers to "failure to follow police instructions." in his video statement.
Posted by Sock Puppet 0’ Doom 2005-07-22 14:09||   2005-07-22 14:09|| Front Page Top

#84 according the source I saw, the 42% wasnt "no preference" it was folks who saw no distinction between being muslim and being British. If someone asked me if I was Jewish or American first, id say they were compatible, being different kinds of identities (jewish peoplehood being different from simply a religion, but not really a nation in the conventional, modern, state focused sense.) The question itself would be a tad offensive. I suppose that would make me a fanatic, to y'all.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-22 14:26||   2005-07-22 14:26|| Front Page Top

#85 "Moslems demand that all States be merged and integrated into their cult"

in fact since about 900 CE or so, the caliphate was nominal, and effectively there were multiple muslim states. And of course it was a MUSLIM, Kemal Attaturk, who abolished the caliphate, and proclaimed the independence of the Turkish state. Since then most muslims in muslim lands support their individual states. The caliphate is a dream of a small minority.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-22 14:30||   2005-07-22 14:30|| Front Page Top

#86 Can we now expect a British edition of 'The Crossfire Gazette?"
Kill 'em all and let God, not Allan, sort 'em out.
Posted by USN, ret. 2005-07-22 14:32||   2005-07-22 14:32|| Front Page Top

#87 " Hence a measure of their tolerance (call it "moderation" if you must) would be to ask them if the State in which they live should ultimately merge into Dar-al-Islam."

No, cause they are a proselytizing religion,as is Christianity. Might as well ask evangelicals if Israel, or Iran, or New Guinea should eventually become part of the Christian world. They of course would not accept that those souls shouldnt be saved, though they wont advocate violence to accomplish it.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-22 14:32||   2005-07-22 14:32|| Front Page Top

#88 "Based on recent events, you could include any man of Asian appearance carrying a bag in that category."

You suggest the police shoot everyone of Asian appearance carrying a bag?? Bad time to be a Hindu in Britain then.

Academic, anyway. This guy was being followed by police apparently cause they had solid leads tying him to the investigation.

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-22 14:35||   2005-07-22 14:35|| Front Page Top

#89 "from the law enforcement model to the combat model. "

lets see, forensic evidence, arrests, etc. I see UK still using the LE model. You want them to drop legal rights for EVERYONE suspected of terrorism, even when there isnt this kind of imminent threat. Id think you guys who are small govt types, and hardliners on muslims, might not like that kind of unlimited govt power. Dont think it wont be used against you one day (janet reno????) The UK tories are quite aware of that, from what I understand. is that not the case, Bulldog?

Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-22 14:39||   2005-07-22 14:39|| Front Page Top

#90 proselytizing religion,as is Christianity. Might as well ask evangelicals if Israel, or Iran, or New Guinea should eventually become part of the Christian world.

What do you mean by that? There is no Greater Christian State at stake here. Certainly not in this time-space continuum. We advertise and people do with the information what they will.
Posted by eLarson 2005-07-22 14:50|| http://larsonian.blogspot.com]">[http://larsonian.blogspot.com]  2005-07-22 14:50|| Front Page Top

#91 The primary effect of a CCW society is the uncertainty it creates for any criminal as to whether their prospective victim might actually be able to KILL them. This is true in the home or anywhere.

In Texas, we went to a CCW after the massacre in the Luby's in ...Waco. A woman whose parents were slaughtered ran for the Legislature, won and got the law passed. She said if she were armed, she had a chance to kill the killer.

It just changes the risk profile for any miscreant. I don't always carry, but now I ALWAYS keep an eye out.
Posted by Brett 2005-07-22 14:59||   2005-07-22 14:59|| Front Page Top

#92 And of course it was a MUSLIM, Kemal Attaturk, who abolished the caliphate

Attaturk was as Muslim as Iosef Stalin was Orthodox.

(Not comparing their actions, just the extent to which they followed the religions they were raised in.)
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-22 15:26|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-22 15:26|| Front Page Top

#93 After identification, he should be buried together with a pig's head & a tree planted on his grave, so all the passing dogs could piss on him so all the potential suicide candidates will be sure that no 70 virgins will be waiting for them enywere, just dead pigs and dog's piss. The burial pictures should be posted on jihadist web sites and on all TV stations at prime time.
Posted by nick7579 2005-07-22 15:28||   2005-07-22 15:28|| Front Page Top

#94 Finally!!! Some duly needed lead poisoning.

Nearing another 100 thread count.
Posted by intrinsicpilot 2005-07-22 15:29||   2005-07-22 15:29|| Front Page Top

#95 LH, it's a balancing act. You're right, Janet Reno already proved what can be done when there's not a crisis or a Patriot Act. Now there's a crisis. I'd move the slider bar away from the civil liberties side till we start to see some abuses. Padilla and Hamadi don't seem like abuses to me. The choice we've got is, how many innocent civilian lives are you willing to risk to preserve civil liberties?
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-07-22 15:45||   2005-07-22 15:45|| Front Page Top

#96 "LH, it's a balancing act. You're right, Janet Reno already proved what can be done when there's not a crisis or a Patriot Act. Now there's a crisis. I'd move the slider bar away from the civil liberties side till we start to see some abuses. Padilla and Hamadi don't seem like abuses to me. The choice we've got is, how many innocent civilian lives are you willing to risk to preserve civil liberties? "

I see the Patriot act as having already moved us from say, 4, to 5. UK say, stayed at 4, or even 3, and is now willing to move to 5. I detect some eagerness to move toward 9 or 10, on the part of some people here - people who reflexively take offense if you even breathe a mention of civil liberties in the context of measures to deal with terrorism.

And im not sure one slider is enough. You could get tougher on incitement to terror, and yet not make it easier for govts to monitor, say, library usage.

But I cant foresee us getting to a pont on the slider, where we dont have SOME LE element.

Take a look at the American Revolution. With a foreign army in occupation of New York, Charleston, and Savannah, with the existence of the nation at risk, most of the founding fathers defended treating with Tory civilians with due process of law, and resisted the harsher measures called for in some states.
Posted by liberalhawk 2005-07-22 15:54||   2005-07-22 15:54|| Front Page Top

#97 I would put money on the idea that the "police shooter" was actually SAS, probably from the Counter-Revolutionary Warfare Squadron. That was number 6, I think. Ask the terrorists in Aden how many of their guys met a double tap in the alleyways of the bazaar back in the days. Maybe one of the British readers can bring us up to speed on the new unit designations of David Stirling's boys.
Plus since the U.K. does not have a Posse Comitatus Act, the PM can activate the SAS for in-country action on his discretion.
Just remember Tony, "Who Dares Wins" :)
Posted by Shieldwolf 2005-07-22 15:56||   2005-07-22 15:56|| Front Page Top

#98 Agreed, LH. It will be a tough balance to strike. Especially when we lower the bar on "racial/national origin, age, sex, religious profiling." But until we start seeing real abuse or false positives, we'll move the sliders each time there is another incident. These clowns don't really uinderstand what it will mean when they push us to total war, but it can happen and they're doing everything they can to make it so. When we prevail, we can easily restore liberties suspended.
Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-07-22 16:05||   2005-07-22 16:05|| Front Page Top

#99 I agree with Mrs. D. There IS a balance to be struck here. At the moment it seems rather tendentious to err on the side of abuses that MIGHT occur when actual abuses of murderous impact are occurring - and are being celebrated and encouraged - on the other side.

Acting against those ACTUAL abuses is important. Keeping an eye out and responding to abuses on the other side - *if and when* they occur - would be appropriate as well.
Posted by too true 2005-07-22 16:44||   2005-07-22 16:44|| Front Page Top

#100 The restauration of the Caliphate is a major goal of the Moslems, contrary to liberalhawk's disinformation.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-22 17:36||   2005-07-22 17:36|| Front Page Top

#101 bullseye
Posted by Nockeyes Nilberforce 2005-07-22 17:39||   2005-07-22 17:39|| Front Page Top

#102 restoration, since it's not about food
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-22 17:42||   2005-07-22 17:42|| Front Page Top

#103 The head of the Londom Metro police refers to "failure to follow police instructions." in his video statement. At first I thought this was a reference to the person who fired the shots who I tend to agree could well be SAS and we were about to get a bout of police versus other security forces 'warfare' (The police resent the military being used for policing). I now realize this is a reference to the dead boomer.
Posted by phil_b 2005-07-22 17:44||   2005-07-22 17:44|| Front Page Top

#104 Read Usama's audio tape transcripts that came in immediately after 3/11. He refers to the targets he outlines in Europe by their 15th century Muslim names. They've named all the targets, Italy is next.

He's still fighting a 15th century war, didn't anybody tell him his side lost already?

EP
Posted by ElvisHasLeftTheBuilding 2005-07-22 17:52||   2005-07-22 17:52|| Front Page Top

#105 No surprise that Osama(spit) refers to historical Moslem wars against Europe -- Moslems believe Allah(spit) wants them to wage war against all non-Moslem countries until everybody is either a convert or dead. They're just following their holy book.

Osama is playing the role of the guy who reminds everybody of what their duties are.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-22 18:20||   2005-07-22 18:20|| Front Page Top

#106 
"Take a look at the American Revolution. With a foreign army in occupation of New York, Charleston, and Savannah, with the existence of the nation at risk, most of the founding fathers defended treating with Tory civilians with due process of law, and resisted the harsher measures called for in some states."

What does any of this mean?
"With a foreign army in place..."--Uh, the Brits weren't "foreign" until we beat their butts back to Britain.
"...treating Tory civilians with due process of law..."--Again, we couldn't institute "due process of law" until we'd set up our republic, decided on those laws and set up our courts, which was considerably after the Revolutionary War.
..."resisted the measures called for in some states..."--More gibberish. How could "states" call for measures when there were no states?
Too fast and dirty with American "history," Mr. Appeaser.

How about this?
Democrat "Liberal" FDR put thousands of native Japanese enemy sympathizers in camps for the duration of WWII, just to be on the safe side.
Abe Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during the Civil War without consent of Congress to prevent the harboring and abetting of the Confederate enemy, for the duration.
I love the Patriot Act and it can't be too strong, IMO.
Now if only we'd do some meaningful racial profiling, especially on planes, buses and on subways.
Posted by Jennie Taliaferro">Jennie Taliaferro  2005-07-22 18:24|| http://www.greatestjeneration.com]">[http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2005-07-22 18:24|| Front Page Top

#107 You could get tougher on incitement to terror, and yet not make it easier for govts to monitor, say, library usage.

WTF is wrong with getting access to library usage records with a court order?

I just don't get the fetish with library records. Particularly when we know the jihadis use library computers to access the jihadi communication sites. Toss in the fact that libraries are PUBLIC spaces, paid for with PUBLIC funds, and I have a hard time seeing why we shouldn't treat actions taken in libraries as PUBLIC activities.
Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford  2005-07-22 18:27|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2005-07-22 18:27|| Front Page Top

#108 "Here would be a useful project: what would constitute a modern, tolerant --''moderate"-- Moslem?"

I've been struggling with this question all afternoon, without much luck. The best answer I've been able to come up with is that he'd be a Muslim whose Islam is no more visible to the rest of us, than our own Christianity or Judaism or Hinduism or atheism is visible to one another.

He'd be a Muslim who regards both his own belief in God and the belief (or lack of belief) of other people to be almost entirely a personal matter.

He'd be a Muslim for whom working with, eating with, or socializing with, Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus or atheists is no more traumatic (or even more significant) than it is for the rest of us, with one another. "To each his own" would be his mantra; or, better yet, "who cares?"

He'd be a Muslim for whom the concept of shariah is an outmoded, unpleasant anachronism.

Ditto for the notion of jihad; he'd consider it an ancient relic from the past, a concept that might have had meaning in the long-ago world of desperate struggles for survival in the desert against hostile, murderous neighbors-- but which is silly, even offensive, in the context of life among tolerant, modern Westerners.

He'd be a Muslim who reacts, upon hearing the word kaffir used to refer to non-Muslims, the way the rest of us react when we hear someone use the word "nigger". The term would be downright offensive to him.

And finally, he'd be a Muslim who, upon hearing that someone in his community is planning-- or even might be planning-- a terrorist attack on non-Muslims, would make a bee-line, at high speed, straight for the nearest police station.

"What parts of traditional Islam would Western, peaceful people expect them to re-interpret or reject?"

As best I can figure, damn near all of it.

"And more importantly, are Moslems already working on it?"

If they are, I don't see any signs of it.
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2005-07-22 18:49||   2005-07-22 18:49|| Front Page Top

#109 If Abdallah the Moslem is uncomfortable with the violent, supremacist traditions of Islam -- what is he to do?

Devote and risk his life to be known as a "moderate" who strives to re-interpret Islam in the modern, tolerant Western framework of free societies? or give up Islam altogether so he can live free in the free world? what if he is told that leaving Islam is apostasy, punishable by death?

Maybe the MMM is mythical because to become "moderate" a Moslem needs to abandon his Moslem identity as such, and in order to do so he needs to get away from Moslem countries. Hence the lack of social-religious evolution and intelligence in the Moslem world? the good guys are either leaving these places, or dead?

Anecdote: a Pakistani friend of mine in his early 30s loves his freedom in the West. He will not return to Pakistan ever, and says it would be too dangerous for him, even on a holiday. He has simply rejected Islam, doesn't try to make excuses for it.
Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2005-07-22 19:11||   2005-07-22 19:11|| Front Page Top

#110 "If Abdallah the Moslem is uncomfortable with the violent, supremacist traditions of Islam -- what is he to do?"

That reminds me of something else to add to the list in #108:

He'd be a Muslim for whom the notion of propagating the faith "by the sword" is anachronistic and silly. One propagates faith by inspiration and persuasion, not by menace.

You know, I'm getting less and less optimistic about this "moderate Muslim" business with each passing day. YMMV, but that's the way it is for me.
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2005-07-22 19:23||   2005-07-22 19:23|| Front Page Top

#111 I like your thoughts, Dave D. In other words, a moderate Muslim is one whose religion is personal and private. Truth to tell, I don't have a problem with him choosing Shariah for himself, with no thought about imposing it on society at large, much like Mormons don't drink alcohol, or Orthodox Jews keep kosher. The day a pair of Muslims ring my doorbell at 9 a.m. of a Saturday morning, hand me a copy of the Koran, and try to convert me by force of argument alone, is the day I'll start to believe we've won.
Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-22 19:32||   2005-07-22 19:32|| Front Page Top

#112 Exactly. And from what I've seen so far, I am definitely not going to hold my breath waiting for it to happen.
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2005-07-22 19:37||   2005-07-22 19:37|| Front Page Top

#113 no way! LH seems to know entire colonies of moderate muslims....they're undercover....double secret undercover...almost Plame-like
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-07-22 19:42||   2005-07-22 19:42|| Front Page Top

#114 Stealth Moderates?
Posted by Dave D.">Dave D.  2005-07-22 19:47||   2005-07-22 19:47|| Front Page Top

#115 :-)
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2005-07-22 19:50||   2005-07-22 19:50|| Front Page Top

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