Article

2006-07-30 Syria-Lebanon-Iran

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Jigum Hupererong5926 2006-07-30 02:18|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 It appears that this is a Shiite set piece. They have determined they are ready for the showdown, both the fodder and the fools who lead them. Send enough into the mill and the lampposts will get some use. Fail in that, but by your actions make clear that Iran and Hezbollah are the same thing, and the war will come to you.

Good enough, I think. Bring it on.

Posted by Jigum Hupererong5926 2006-07-30 09:01|| 2006-07-30 09:01|| Front Page Top

#2 Yoohoo, Dubya, can we have a draft now???

Posted by JosephMendiola 2006-07-30 09:24|| 2006-07-30 09:24|| Front Page Top

#3
"Yoohoo, Dubya, can we have a draft now???"

If they would stop srcewing around, take the gloves off and declare open season, there wouldn't be a need for the draft.

-M

Posted by Manolo 2006-07-30 09:41|| 2006-07-30 09:41|| Front Page Top

#4
srcewing = screwing

Had my glasses on backwards!

-M

Posted by Manolo 2006-07-30 09:42|| 2006-07-30 09:42|| Front Page Top

#5 Yoohoo, Dubya, can we have a draft now???

Ask professional military people who served in the draft Army at its end and the professional Army of the 90s-00s. As one, I won't want a draft army. Give me volunteers even if it means doing more with less.

You're dreams of a WWII type draft Army have as much to do with reality as the WWII era media had to do with reporting that war. Both were exceptions to the historical record.

Posted by Flaving Omuger5227 2006-07-30 10:27|| 2006-07-30 10:27|| Front Page Top

#6 #2: Yoohoo, Dubya, can we have a draft now???

God NO
That's the fastest way to destroy our fine Military, bring in a bunch of "Don't wanna be here's" instead of the highly motovated "We want to kick their ASS" good folks we have now.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-07-30 10:40|| 2006-07-30 10:40|| Front Page Top

#7 It's a changed society from that of Dec 7, 1941 and the Korean conflict. Reinstituting the draft would be a monumental disaster. I can't even begin to imagine trying to socialize and educate the ghetto crud that would find their way, albeit unwillingly into the military. Unfortunately we're beyond mandetory conscrption, and have been for several decades now.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-07-30 10:46|| 2006-07-30 10:46|| Front Page Top

#8 Joe,
With respect, we keep the draft mechanism in place more out of vestigial reflex than anything else. The truth of the matter is that although the overwhelming majority of those called would probably go, the resisters would be a disturbingly high number of those called - for example, approximately 375,000 cases of possible draft evasion were investigated in WWII, and 16,000 were actually convicted out of more than ten MILLION actually inducted. That comes down to less than one percent, and that under cultural conditions that would have been very much against anyone accused of draft evasion. This time however, there would be a strong resistance - probably in the double digits - of people who would simply refuse to go, not to mention the courts that would almost certainly back them up.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-07-30 10:51|| 2006-07-30 10:51|| Front Page Top

#9 the only voices that propose a draft, like "Cholly" Rangel D-~~Assholery~~ NY, are doing so to thwart a unified, effective military, and to try and undermine popular support for national defense. Why are you, JM?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-07-30 10:54|| 2006-07-30 10:54|| Front Page Top

#10 The military couldn't use that many people. The cost of training and equipping a soldier is way too high. The reason our soldiers do so well is because they are so capital intense. This capital intensity is only going to increase for our combat soldiers.

But we do need to face the fact that there is no substitute for boots on the ground, especially after hostilities have ceased but peace is not established. Either we get in the nation building business with some force that's a cross between the Peace Corps and the old Army, or we should just destroy nations and start from scratch.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-30 10:57|| 2006-07-30 10:57|| Front Page Top

#11 I can't even begin to imagine trying to socialize and educate the ghetto crud that would find their way, albeit unwillingly into the military.

You brought up a horrifyingly hilarious thought. Vet all Applicant/Draftees and send only the unreformable "Ghettoized" into a different "Army", a whole Corps of Black, Ghettoized "Soldiers" with their hats on sideways, all uniforms neatly arranged with the shirt tails out, pants around their knees, underwear worn on the outside of their Khakis, wearing blindingly white Reboks, and singing "M. C. Hammer" for marching songs as they Loudly Shout "Fuck You Sir" to any orders. The firing range would be a Hoot, trying to hit anything with your Guns held sideways. (I'd pre-punch the targets, and issue them blanks, they'd never know)

On the other hand this could also be used to solve some very real Social Problems, march these fools into real Combat, and clean out the inner cities at the same time, few would return. Be damn sure to keep this Corps entirely segregated from any other branch of the Real Military, and it should work.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-07-30 11:08|| 2006-07-30 11:08|| Front Page Top

#12 That wasn't exactly my idea. And I'd be the Army still gets its fair share of those types of recruits and repairs the work of the public schools by turning most into fine soldiers and citizens. The benefits of service aren't one way.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-30 11:20|| 2006-07-30 11:20|| Front Page Top

#13 I'm agreeing with you Nimble, note the word "Unreformable", the good, educatable but unfortunate folks go into the Regular Army.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-07-30 11:42|| 2006-07-30 11:42|| Front Page Top

#14 srcewing = screwing

Had my glasses on backwards!
:>

Nver apologize, never explain.

Posted by 6 2006-07-30 13:09|| 2006-07-30 13:09|| Front Page Top

#15 By my estimation, the number of ground forces we would need for a war with Iran are about the number currently in Iraq. This is based on the following logic:

1) Iran's sole effective offensive weapons are its missiles. Once these are countered by a layered missile defense, the only other offensive threat the Iranians could mount would be an invasion of southern Iraq. A fruitless and bloody endeavor that would turn the Iraqi military into the raw military numbers to join with the US to seriously pound Iran.

2) Otherwise, the US can conduct an air war to neutralize their missile and nuclear capability, but just as importantly, to annihilate their air and ground military and RG forces. Which would lead to,

3) The partitioning of Iran. This would require US ground forces for occupation. But with the vast majority of the Iranian military and RG destroyed, the ethnic minorities in these regions would be more than happy to take over their own management from the Persians.

4) This occupation would be needed only until the people in those territories had voted to secede and to join an adjacent country more to their liking, followed by that adjacent country sending in military forces to take the place of the US.

The bottom line is that the US could "leave" Iraq at any time without fear that it would collapse; but it is very, very useful that we stay there for at least a long while. And yet this means that we have three top combat divisions ready and able to do other things.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-07-30 14:11|| 2006-07-30 14:11|| Front Page Top

#16 Damn Jim, tell me you mean that tongue in cheek.

Posted by RJB in JC MO 2006-07-30 14:26|| 2006-07-30 14:26|| Front Page Top

#17 Shame on all of us for putting up with what's going on in the Middle East. Shame on us for prefering methods of reaction that lead to more people, like you and me and our kids, dying compared to military morons. Shame on the arm chair generals who have such double standards. If the end requires a means by which children die by the dozens, for instance, and our fear mongers can do nothing but peddle a black future where these results become unavoidable casualties of war, it is a horrendous shame. Perhaps the blackness is due to too many people having their heads in their asses. Shame on me for not being even more vocal against the idiocy of western society and really trying to do somethng. I guess my head is in my ass too.

Posted by tiredofitall 2006-07-30 14:53|| 2006-07-30 14:53|| Front Page Top

#18 I agree. Your head has suffered a rectal impaction. Please let us know if the surgery is successful. Best wishes.

Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-07-30 14:57|| 2006-07-30 14:57|| Front Page Top

#19 "the idiocy of western society"

So its all the fault of the west???
I suppose eastern society is the way to go for you? Islam is not a creation of the west. Do you think your wife & daughters (assuming you might have either)would like to live under the principles of Islam?

Can't figure out where you're comming from bub.

Posted by RJB in JC MO 2006-07-30 15:00|| 2006-07-30 15:00|| Front Page Top

#20 bet the IP is either Berkeley, Madison, or Peshawar

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-07-30 15:20|| 2006-07-30 15:20|| Front Page Top

#21 A draft is immoral. I'd fight any country that thought it owned me enough to force my presence in an army.

Posted by Bright Pebbles 2006-07-30 15:54|| 2006-07-30 15:54|| Front Page Top

#22 #21 A draft is immoral. I'd fight any country that thought it owned me enough to force my presence in an army.
Posted by: Bright Pebbles 2006-07-30 15:54

Nothing "immoral" about conscription, it was the law, it worked. Running off to Canada or hiding, and letting some other poor chap do YOUR duty is "immoral." Failing to do one's part and letting wimmin volunteer to fill the ranks is... "immoral." Openly protesting against a war and aiding-abbetting the enemy while our troops are deployed and engaged is "immoral."

Posted by Besoeker 2006-07-30 16:05|| 2006-07-30 16:05|| Front Page Top

#23 BP - part of "citizenship" along with the benefits, is the cost of defense of the Nation - when needed. A draft is not productive when the battle isn't "to the death" (or utter subjugation) between nations, and where sheer numbers aren't the answer. When it is, it's time to rise to the call or slink off to Canada. Which would you choose?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-07-30 16:20|| 2006-07-30 16:20|| Front Page Top

#24 Army Chief of Staff General Peter Schoomaker's excellent Soldier's Creed. Notice its spelled with a capital "S".

SOLDIER'S CREED
I am an American Soldier.

I am a Warrior and a member of a team. I serve the people of the United States and live the Army Values.

I will always place the mission first.
I will never accept defeat.
I will never quit.
I will never leave a fallen comrade.

I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough, trained and proficient in my warrior tasks and drills. I always maintain my arms, my equipment and myself.

I am an expert and I am a professional.

I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat.

I am a guardian of freedom and the American way of life.

I am an American Soldier.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-07-30 16:25|| 2006-07-30 16:25|| Front Page Top

#25 >I agree. Your head has suffered a rectal impaction. Please let us know if the surgery is successful. Best wishes.

I understand your desire in wanting to know if the surgery will be successful. It means that there might be hope for you as well. But then like any person who is sick, understanding you have a problem is the first step. I understand mine. You certainly dont understand yours.

>So its all the fault of the west???

This is an unfortunate response, making broad universal inductions based on a single sentence. Did I say it is all the fault of the west? No. What I am questioning is how western societies, or many of their leaders certainly, can follow courses of action that mirror the crap that is thrown at them. Rantburg posts quite often state we (America I mean) are better than the Muslim world. Our culture is better. We take a higher moral ground. If you believe this, I will indeed let you know more about possible surgeries to free your heads from the black crevices that they are lodged in. The sad part is that surgery is really a critical, non-biased look at ourselves and the rest of the world. This is very difficult to do, and Im trying the best I can. There are always understandings we reach truth! the real stuff of course that we hold on to no matter what happens in the world. There is so often a complete graying of facts, focused accusations, side stepping of what people are trying to say. It is no wonder a discussion thread like this exists and is a meeting place where those in the know can be comforted that they are not alone.

>I suppose eastern society is the way to go for you?

Why not both societies? Why must there be one or the other?

>Do you think your wife & daughters (assuming you might have either) would like to live under the principles of Islam?

There is such a fear of Islam today. Why are you so frightened about it? It is a beautiful religion. I have a wife of 12 years, a son 9, and a daughter 3. What they want to believe is up to them. My job as a father is to raise them in a way that they can make their own choices and appreciate the need to contribute to the world, not contaminate it. Contribute or contaminate. What will you/we do? What are we really contributing? What are we contaminating?

I am also a western guy living a more simple life in Dahab. I traded my western life of being an electrical engineer to own a scuba diving centre here in Egypt. I saw first hand what three maniacal suicide bombers did to Dahab on April 24th of this year. I see second hand on the news what some maniacal western leaders are doing elsewhere in the world in pursuit of their respective dream/nightmare. I am also a Christian living in the dark world of Islam. Ooh scary stuff. Christianity, like Islam, is a beautiful religion, filled with lots of wonderful teachings. Ive been to most Middle Eastern countries. Damascus is an incredible city, like so many in the Middle East. Iran was a wonderful trip last year. Never been to so many homes for sharing a simple tea and having conversations on our respective experiences. The trip to Iran was a two week affair. Cant remember being invited to any strangers house for a cup of tea when I was living in the US. Are these Iranians the people we need to bomb? Will they be acceptable casualties in our desire to set the world right? Syrians and Iranians are by and large wonderful people. So are the Egyptians, Copts and Muslims alike. So friendly and welcoming, so looking for peace to just raise their families and appreciate the beauty of life. My wife has many Egyptians friends, Muslim women for the most part, that are very wonderful, generous, devout, sweet people. These people are everywhere. Look at the number of comments on this website where the death of these people are justified for the greater good of whatever we are trying to say the world needs. Casualties of necessary wars. Instead of looking to attack personally the bearer of a belief, or the regular jibes at bleeding liberal whatevers that is so ripe on Rantburg, why not look at what is being said. Nope. More of a concern from some on whether the IP is from Berkeley, Madison, or Peshawar! I am a family-man capitalist, trying to build a business in Egypt where I can show people the beauty of what god has given us under the sea. Feel free to add your accusations and labels. This adds clarity to my comments. The real truth behind the words. Right?

>Can't figure out where you're comming from bub.

Can you understand now? I think I know the answer for most on Rantburg. But cant help an evening of a few posts to try to educate some people that are too lost in their own ideologies, their own lives, and of course their own desires.

Posted by tiredofitall 2006-07-30 16:36|| 2006-07-30 16:36|| Front Page Top

#26 tiredofitall: Very nice yes, thanks for the lecture. Now, based on yer own screeed - go live in yer Koranic paradise of Iran for a couple of years and then come back and tell us how you feel. That is of course, you have not been incorporated into the world's largest public glass lined parking lot. You see, we just had som Islamo-nut shoot up a number of Jews in Seattle for the high crime of being...well...Jews. So stuff your equivocation. We're all waiting for the "moderate musliim" to make its presence known. My money says that 12 imam shows up first. Bite me!

Posted by Rex Mundi 2006-07-30 16:52|| 2006-07-30 16:52|| Front Page Top

#27 how are the Copts treated in your Eden?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-07-30 17:02|| 2006-07-30 17:02|| Front Page Top

#28 Hey Tired, lots of us here at RB have spent quality time in the Middle East and have known many a wonderful Muslim man, woman, family.

My issue is not with the individual, but with the Muslim leadership that is in power now. Take a real look around you. Were you comfortable with the reaction to the cartoon issue earlier this year? Are you OK with Ahmadinejad calling for the destruction of Israel? Were your Iranian hosts comfortable with it? If not, were they going to do anything about it? Look at who is fomenting the violence in the world. It is not the west starting this crap. Look at the populations that either give active support or just look the other way. Sorry, but there is a responsiblitiy there.

I don't think that anyone here relishes the thought of blowing people to smithereens. But the radicals that are leading the Islamic world now are openly calling for war. If that is what they really want, then that is what they, and their populations are going to get.

Posted by remoteman 2006-07-30 17:28|| 2006-07-30 17:28|| Front Page Top

#29 Tiredofitall:

Screw you. Screw Islam. Screw the pedophile "prophet" Mohammad. Screw the backwards-ass nations that all allow Islam to hold political and military power. Screw those in the West who are too piss-ignorant to see that Islam itself is fundamentally incompatible with the rights afforded individuals in a democratic republic. Shove your lecture up your ass.

Posted by Crusader 2006-07-30 17:56|| 2006-07-30 17:56|| Front Page Top

#30 >Very nice yes, thanks for the lecture.

You are very welcome Rex. My pleasure.

>Now, based on yer own screeed - go live in yer Koranic paradise of Iran for a couple of years and then come back and tell us how you feel.

Been in Egypt for almost a year. Is this a Koranic paradise? If so, let me tell you the move has been fantastic. Great people, great scuba diving, great adventure. Good to get outdoors.

>You see, we just had som Islamo-nut shoot up a number of Jews in Seattle for the high crime of being...well...Jews. So stuff your equivocation. We're all waiting for the "moderate musliim" to make its presence known. My money says that 12 imam shows up first.

The moderate muslim? Well, as we all know and given the length of time you have been waiting, there are no moderate Muslims. They are all hateful killers with a goal to destroy America and kill all the Jews they can. We should also point out some other highlights, like all Germans are Nazis, or all Jews are cheap misers, and of course all of us Americans are assholes.

As I mentioned, the town I am living in got bombed by three fundamentalist suicide bombers in April. Three days later I saw over 1000 Muslims marching in the street to protest what happened. Dahab has only 3000 people by the way. They were carrying signs like One Love, One God, Stop the violence, Stop the bloodshed, etc. You would have made money on your bet though Rex. In the crowd were a number of Imams from the 7 main mosques in Dahab. Guess what chants they were leading the crowd in? Death to America? What news channel do you watch?

> Bite me!

I already have.

How are the copts? The copts here in Dahab havent all been beheaded yet. The Coptic church in El Tor still stands, it hasnt been bombed yet either, and remarkably there are a number of Copts on my street that work with Muslims. Can you believe it?

Almost all of the people I work with are Muslims. Havent been shot yet weird eh? Strangely, the people here treat me with respect. Must be the calm before the storm. Perhaps a preemptive strike is in order. Get those Muslim terrorists and their Imams too before they get me. Someone pass my plea to the White House. Save me George!

As for remoteman, thanks for some good questions and not mindless misspelled derogatory commentary.

>My issue is not with the individual, but with the Muslim leadership that is in power now.

Yes, mine too. But I also extend this to some leaders in the West. I was comfortable with the reaction to the cartoon issue earlier this year. Muslims were upset. Here in Dahab, people couldnt believe how a newspaper could redicule their prophet. The Koran exhalts Moses and Jesus as prophets and treats them with respect. Were you uncomfortable with Christian groups reaction to the Da Vinci Code?

>Are you OK with Ahmadinejad calling for the destruction of Israel?

No.

>Were your Iranian hosts comfortable with it?

I talk politics and religion quite a bit. What I got from the Iranian people was the impression that Israel, through backing of the US, is pursuing a policy that is solely based on unequal, personal benefit at the expense of anyone who is not Israeli or American. This is their view, not neccessarily mine. I met one person who said Muslims must fight until Israel is wiped off the face of the globe. The rest pretty much just wanted to live in peace and let their neighbors live in peace. People are very tired of whats going on. So many people do not believe that violence is the answer and see a great double standard that exists today.

>If not, were they going to do anything about it?

Dont know. To be honest, never really asked that question, about regime change and such, but it would have been a good one.

>Look at who is fomenting the violence in the world. It is not the west starting this crap.

I think both sides have done their fair share of fermenting violence. The question I ask is what are appropriate responses? The responses I am seeing has indeed made me tired of it all. Do we invade Iran? Do we bomb Lebanon? What will we accomplish in doing this? Less bloodshed.

>Look at the populations that either give active support or just look the other way. Sorry, but there is a responsiblitiy there.

I agree. A number of Muslim leaders are calling for the recognition of Israel and the stopping of bloodshed. A number are not. How do we move forward is the question.

>I don't think that anyone here relishes the thought of blowing people to smithereens.

I dont know, but Ive seen some pretty crazy posts on this website. On this page there is even someone saying:

>If they would stop srcewing around, take the gloves off and declare open season, there wouldn't be a need for the draft.

What does declaring open season mean? And more importantly, what price is too much to pay in collateral damage. Are the 40,000 civilian deaths in Iraq worth what we have accomplished in the country? Again, it seems like a double standard. Attack Iraq before there can be another 911. The 40,000 deaths of women, children, and peaceful men we have right now in Iraq (and this number will of course continue to grow) equates to 13 more 911 scale attacks. This math seems strange. The same thing when we look at the unacceptable casualties Hezbollah nutbars inflict on Israel. This is despicable. I agree with this. But why are nearly 10 times the number of Israeli deaths in Lebanon considered unfortunate, but necessary casualties of war by the US and Israeli leaders?

>But the radicals that are leading the Islamic world now are openly calling for war. If that is what they really want, then that is what they, and their populations are going to get.

And it goes on. More killing. For what? My Dad always taught me if you need to settle a fight with your hands you have already lost the battle. Use your head instead. The gist of my thoughts are that we are not using our heads enough. Just a mad dash for escalating violence. And why is this so? Why cant we use our heads? Where are our heads?

And finally, the last post. Let me copy it again because it says so much:

>Screw you. Screw Islam. Screw the pedophile "prophet" Mohammad. Screw the backwards-ass nations that all allow Islam to hold political and military power. Screw those in the West who are too piss-ignorant to see that Islam itself is fundamentally incompatible with the rights afforded individuals in a democratic republic. Shove your lecture up your ass.

I was trying to shove the lecture up the asses of guys like you Crusader, but there is obviously no room. Still filled with your head.

Gotta go. Sorry for the long post. Perhaps I should have followed Rantburg style. Perhaps just writing "suck my swammy salami you warmonger pigs and shove it up your gaping, cavernous ass". Made the mistake of going for civil, well reasoned discourse :)

Posted by tiredofitall 2006-07-30 18:53|| 2006-07-30 18:53|| Front Page Top

#31 I believe I was civil in my inqury....so much for stereotypes?

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-07-30 19:00|| 2006-07-30 19:00|| Front Page Top

#32 #16: Damn Jim, tell me you mean that tongue in cheek.

Call it very sharply pointed sarcasm/snark.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2006-07-30 22:01|| 2006-07-30 22:01|| Front Page Top

#33 Don't go.
I just got here.

" If the end requires a means by which children die by the dozens, for instance, and our fear mongers can do nothing but peddle a black future where these results become unavoidable casualties of war, it is a horrendous shame."

Yes it's an awful shame. If they didn't kidnap and behead and hijack and blow-up and make ridiculous demands and threats and kill people on a daily basis, I probably wouldn't have the nerve to say. Better them than mine. But their it is.
It's them or us. I still like us. You can be on whichever side you choose totally irrespective of religious beleifs.

Perhaps the blackness is due to too many people having their heads in their asses. Shame on me for not being even more vocal against the idiocy of western society and really trying to do somethng. I guess my head is in my ass too.

YEs shame on you for being biased.
If yoou don't like western society and feel so strongly about it why don't you try giving up the western trappings.
You can start with your computer. Give up that phone buddy. No car for you. Toilet gotta go. Fridge is out. Did you like the electric light ? goodbye.
Happy 12th century.

Posted by J. D. Lux 2006-07-30 22:19|| 2006-07-30 22:19|| Front Page Top

#34 Tired: Sorry I missed ya...and glad to see yer enoying your stay. Sorry too, but 1000 protesters do not convince me though I don't doubt their convictions when it comes to fellow muslims getting whacked. When those same protesters take to the streets to protest the killing of Jews and Christians in the name of a certain other religion, then please come back and be the first to share the good news. I live for the day but I'm not holding my breath. I didn't say all muslims were fanatics - I did say that those moderates continue to sit on their hands and thus give tacit comfort to the extremists. Those who do speak out represent a pitfiully small minority. Much like the White Rose in WWII Germany.

Posted by Rex Mundi 2006-07-30 23:15|| 2006-07-30 23:15|| Front Page Top

23:57 CrazyFool
23:55 Al Aska Paul, Resident Imam
23:47 Alaska Paul
23:42 Zhang Fei
23:39 newc
23:30 Alaska Paul
23:23 borgboy
23:22 Mike oilman
23:20 Zhang Fei
23:16 Zhang Fei
23:15 Rex Mundi
23:09 Barbara Skolaut
23:06 Elmohunter Cratchit
23:02 SLO Jim
23:00 Zhang Fei
22:58 Poison Reverse
22:57 Robert Crawford
22:51 Zhang Fei
22:51 Mike oilman
22:48 gromgoru
22:38 CrazyFool
22:35 CrazyFool
22:35 gromgoru
22:32 SR-71