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2004-07-30 Home Front: Culture Wars
The Metrosexual Superpower
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Posted by Dragon Fly 2004-07-30 8:11:03 AM|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 The EU is a superpower? Bwahahaha...EU and what army?
The EU is effective? at bending over and grabbing its ankles...
Posted by Spot  2004-07-30 8:30:50 AM||   2004-07-30 8:30:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 I couldn't tell from reading that article whether the author is being sincere and oh-so-clever in a limp-wristed, swishy sort of way-- or whether he is being wickedly, brutally sarcastic.

If the former, the article is some of the most fatuous nonsense I've read in a long, long time. If the latter, it's brilliant.

Diplomatic faggotry is not going to bring victory over Islamic fascism.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-07-30 8:37:07 AM||   2004-07-30 8:37:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Jaw-jaw is fine in a diplo world where everybody's nice and speaks the same sensible language. But you're going to need to resort to war-war when the barbarians crash your party.

Parag Khanna - early contender for idiotarian of the year?
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 8:41:58 AM||   2004-07-30 8:41:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Bend it like Brussels? No thanks.
Posted by Mr. Davis 2004-07-30 9:11:28 AM||   2004-07-30 9:11:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Metrosexual basically meens foppish, right?
Posted by Korora  2004-07-30 9:20:52 AM|| [http://basementburrow.blogspot.com]  2004-07-30 9:20:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Foppish, vain, self-absorbed, effete, superficial, posturing, inconsequential, French, or affected; something like that.
Posted by Dave D.  2004-07-30 9:30:20 AM||   2004-07-30 9:30:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Ok , it's one thing to write about men's style, but why's she got to kick the USA in the stomach? No reason, she's just an asshole who didn't really think it though, American men always get ass overseas.
Posted by Anonymous5945 2004-07-30 9:34:32 AM||   2004-07-30 9:34:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Not she, he. Indian. Lived (and schooled?) in Switzerland. Came to the US to make his name and fortune. And judging from the article, gay all the way.
Posted by ed 2004-07-30 9:58:02 AM||   2004-07-30 9:58:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Sissy.
Posted by Dragon Fly  2004-07-30 10:24:01 AM||   2004-07-30 10:24:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Put simply, metrosexual men are muscular but suave, confident yet image-conscious, assertive yet clearly in touch with their feminine sides.
*snip*
Meet the real New Europe: the world’s first metrosexual superpower.

Am I missing something? Where has Europe shown itself to be muscular, confident, or assertive? By her own definition, Europe only exhibits the traits of femininity.
Posted by BH 2004-07-30 10:37:09 AM||   2004-07-30 10:37:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 European foriegn policy = coquettish haberdasher
Posted by Dragon Fly  2004-07-30 10:40:24 AM||   2004-07-30 10:40:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Michael Flocker! You are "girly man"!
Posted by Ahhhhnold 2004-07-30 10:44:33 AM||   2004-07-30 10:44:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Europe: Flaccid, timid, passive-aggressive.

Sounds like a girl I used to date.
Posted by dreadnought 2004-07-30 10:55:53 AM||   2004-07-30 10:55:53 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 "The EU is effective? at bending over and grabbing its ankles..."

So true!! But I guess that does fit in with the whole "metrosexual" thing ...
Posted by docob 2004-07-30 12:10:04 PM||   2004-07-30 12:10:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Not all of the world is contained inside the countries that the US chooses to invade, therefore not all evidence of power needs exist within those countries.

There must have been atleast a dozen articles about how democratic reform in Turkey, a muslim nation of 70 millions, is closely motivated by its wish to establish closer ties with the EU, even full membership. Even when Bush visited Turkey, he had to use a European carrot, not having any worthwhile carrot of his own.

If you are to see Libyan reform as signs of American power, then you must see Turkey reform as signs of European power. And likewise with the boost of democratic reforms in Romania and Bulgaria, and likewise with much of the cooperation of Croatia and Serbia with the handing over of war criminals. Or the Cyprus issue which almost came to solution because of the EU -- and that chance was only destroyed by the chauvinism of the Greek-Cypriot president, not the Turkish side.

Bosnia, if it hangs together, will be the first nation to have modelled its flag, in colors and shape, after the EU one, even as many American nations modelled their flag after the USA flag. That's influence in the world.

Now, I freely admit that the EU doesn't currently have much (if any) "stick". And in the fight against Islamofascism we require more quantities of stick than of carrot. But the battle against tyranny isn't limited to *only* the fight against the Islamofascist powers. EU, for example, may be the only chance Ukraine and Georgia have of breaking away from the neo-Soviet sphere -- I'm gonna link an article relating to this later. And in those cases it's the carrot that matters more.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 12:21:18 PM||   2004-07-30 12:21:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Bosnia, if it hangs together, will be the first nation to have modelled its flag, in colors and shape, after the EU one, even as many American nations modelled their flag after the USA flag. That's influence in the world.

That's not true, according to the flag institute, who were consulted on the design. Their account suggests the similarities are coincidental, and also that "[international High Representative Carlos] Westendorp imposed the flag on Bosnia and Herzegovina". Two of the colours are clarified as "Reflex blue and Yellow 116c" - the same as the EU flag, but no political or symbolic reason for that is given. And the flag has "a certain number of stars, such as can be found on the flag of the European Union, though they are lined up in one line from fringe to fringe"; again, just happens to have stars. What do you base your claim on, Aris?
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 12:48:33 PM||   2004-07-30 12:48:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 Almost sounds more like the Venezuelan flag...
Posted by Phil Fraering 2004-07-30 1:07:59 PM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]  2004-07-30 1:07:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Aris/Bulldog how dare you direct this discussion in a serious direct! :-)
Posted by Dragon Fly  2004-07-30 1:14:11 PM||   2004-07-30 1:14:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Steyn has a hilarious piece on this article:
Anyway, that’s broadly Mr Khanna’s thesis: unlike the insecure American cowboy, Europe is secure enough in its Martian hard power to know when to deploy a little sweet-smelling Venusian soft power. This may well be the dumbest essay the usually sober Foreign Policy has ever published. I had trouble keeping my Howard Dean metrosexual riff going beyond the second paragraph, but old Khanna flogs his metaphor into the ground and then scrapes it off the floor for more:
[above excerpt]
This sounds like one of those pieces an editor runs when he wants to get fired and go to Tuscany to write a novel. The Airbus 380 is a classic Eurostatist money pit, German law enforcement has been a huge flop against al-Qa’eda, and as for all the other fashionable projections of soft power, where are they? Europe wanted Kyoto: it’s dead. It wanted Saddam in office: he’s in jail. Right now cowboy Bush is leaving Sudan to the metrosexuals and what have they got to show for their projection of ‘soft power’? Tens of thousands of corpses that no amount of cologne will hide the smell of.
It gets better. RTWT.
Posted by someone 2004-07-30 1:23:25 PM||   2004-07-30 1:23:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Bulldog> The very page you linked says "The moslem parliamentarian Zlatku Lagumdziji proposed to change the blue to 'European blue'."

This was ofcourse accepted. The earlier design was supposed to be a lighter blue referring to the United Nations "thereby expressing the membership of Bosnia and Herzegovina 'in the global community of states'" (quote again from the article you linked)

And again below that another quote: "He found that there was something to say for the proposal to change the UN-(light) blue to European (dark) blue."

And somewhere above that you get the reference: 'has a certain number of stars, such as can be found on the flag of the European Union, though they are lined up in one line from fringe to fringe'

someone> "It wanted Saddam in office: he’s in jail."

Yeah, that's *exactly* why Poland, Spain, the UK, Italy and so forth set troops, while about ten other EU nations vocally supported USA's efforts: because Europe "wanted Saddam in office".

It's quite clear that Steyn has an idiot's view of Europe, it obviously being a synonym for "France" or possibly "France and Germany" in his limited intellect.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 6:21:24 PM||   2004-07-30 6:21:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 You have an incredible imagination, Aris. I'd bet that most people reading that page would come to a completely different interpretation from yours. You said:

Bosnia ... will be the first nation to have modelled its flag, in colors and shape, after the EU one

"Bosnia" didn't even model the flag, Aris!!! Westendorp did. And the colour choices - where does it say they're symbolic rather than aesthetic? It doesn't. Where's the white in the EU flag? Where's the triangle? Where's the shape you refer to at all? Why aren't the Bosnian stars yellow? Why can't you just admit you made an erroneous assumption when you saw the flag, and were ignorant of its history?
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 6:32:57 PM||   2004-07-30 6:32:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 Also Bulldog, at this page: http://www.flagwire.com/display_article.asp?id=6764

we get the following: "According to Duncan Bullivant, a spokesman for the office, the dark blue color and white stars on the new Bosnian flag symbolize the connection between Bosnia-Herzegovina and the European Union and the fact that the country belongs to Europe."
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 6:33:27 PM||   2004-07-30 6:33:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 And btw, by "shape" I meant the stars. I should have used another word perhaps -- in "in color and symbols" instead of "in color and shape"? If that's the fullness of your objection then, fine, I apologize for the misleading word "shape".

Bulldog, I've already given you more than one link that refer to the stars and colors symbolizing the European flag. Actually I've given you one link, and you've provided the other. So wait a few minutes and I'm gonna dig up some more.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 6:40:54 PM||   2004-07-30 6:40:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 "The House of Representatives on Tuesday, however,
rejected all three proposals."

Once again, Aris: it was imposed on them. You started this conversation with some bollocks about the EU-lovin' Bosnians fawningly modeling their own flag on the EU's. The truth ain't nothing like that. Wake up!
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 6:41:03 PM||   2004-07-30 6:41:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 If that's the fullness of your objection then...

I suggest you read my other objections. Primarily that the flag was imposed on Bosnia by an international official, who himself chose the design.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 6:43:28 PM||   2004-07-30 6:43:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Go head and look for a link, Aris. If you find one that supports your claim, I'll happily have a look. It's your choice to keep digging. But I have to go to bed...
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 6:45:15 PM||   2004-07-30 6:45:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 Bulldog, why does it matter so much to you? Yes, Bosnia is an international protectorate and at that stage it could decide pretty much nothing by itself. Nonetheless they accepted this flag. Nonetheless you yourself gave the link where a Bosnian parliamentarian suggested the color turn into "European blue". *European* blue, Bulldog.

All the bullshit about "EU-loving Bosnians fawningly modeling their own flag" comes from you -- I never said them. The only thing I said is that to model your flag on that of another country means influence.

(If I had wanted to talk about EU-loving Bosnians, I'd have preferred to link to this article instead. )

All the bullshit about you wanting the stars to be the exact same color -- Bulldog, the Cuban flag was also modelled after the American flag and nonetheless its ribbons were *blue* and white, not *red* and white, and nonetheless there's no triangle in the American flag.

One more link, that connects color and stars with the European flag: http://flagspot.net/flags/ba.html

More to come, if you are so insistent on this point.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 6:51:00 PM||   2004-07-30 6:51:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Aris quote 1: Bosnia, if it hangs together, will be the first nation to have modelled its flag, in colors and shape, after the EU one, even as many American nations modelled their flag after the USA flag. That's influence in the world.

Aris quote 2: All the bullshit about "EU-loving Bosnians fawningly modeling their own flag" comes from you -- I never said them. The only thing I said is that to model your flag on that of another country means influence.

Do you expect people to take you seriously? Once again: Bosnians didn't model the flag, moreover they rejected it when they had the choice, and it was subsequently imposed on them. The supposed influence you laud, if there was any, was on Westendorp, who imposed the design on an unwilling people.
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 6:58:50 PM||   2004-07-30 6:58:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 'Night
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-30 7:00:35 PM||   2004-07-30 7:00:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 http://zeljko-heimer-fame.from.hr/descr/ba-prop.html : "The stars resemble the EU stars"

http://www.ngw.nl/int/bos/bosnia.htm : "the stars were taken from the flag of the European Union with their desire to be a part of the EU".

http://international-flags.net/buy-online/bosnia-and-herzegovina/ : "The blue, "in combination with the stars" is said to represent "Europe and the Council of Europe, of which Bosnia and Herzegovina is a part"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Bosnia_and_Herzegovina : "The stars, representing Europe, are meant to be infinite in number and thus they continue from top to bottom."

Anyway, even if my belief that the stars and colors are Europe-related is a mistake, do you atleast concede that this is a mistake shared by the entire Internet, with the exception of you ofcourse?

Or can you find a single page that claims they *aren't* connected?
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 7:05:07 PM||   2004-07-30 7:05:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Bulldog> They never rejected the current flag -- they rejected a previous butt-ugly flag that had the UN color on it, not the EU color. I don't blame them -- I'd have also rejected it.

So far I know no vote on the current Bosnian flag. Will check to see if any was made.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 7:17:37 PM||   2004-07-30 7:17:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 Why worry?
There is no Bosnia and I doubt there ever will be.
Problem solved.
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-07-30 7:19:37 PM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-07-30 7:19:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 On my part I can't believe how much Bulldog obsessed about this to the point of saying "Why can't you just admit you made an erroneous assumption when you saw the flag, and were ignorant of its history?"

I can't "just admit that" because it's simply wrong -- I I was slow-witted enough that I never even thought of such a connection when I saw the flag, until I'd read it from several other sources, like Wikipedia or Flags of the World.

If it makes you feel any better I had also thought that any similarity between the Cuban and the American flag was coincidence until I read otherwise. So in short, I tend to be on the other side of the spectrum, Bulldog -- when my assumptions are wrong they tend to go on the side of seeing to *few* connections than are really there.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-30 7:34:35 PM||   2004-07-30 7:34:35 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 Or can you find a single page that claims they *aren't* connected?

Sooo clever, Aris, asking someone to prove a negative. Well, this (taken from my original link) quotes the design commission's original report:

The commission agreed that all elements in the flag and the symbol as a whole had to be equally acceptable to every citizen and every group in the country. 'For that reason, the position was taken that those criteria which are most commonly applied in the world to such state symbols should be followed, but also that each of the chosen solutions (alternatives) should be easily recognised by its elements and colours as a symbol of our state'.

This was the reason why none of the symbols or colours of one of the ethnic groups were included in the three designs. Green or crescent or fleur de lys would be associated with the moslems; the red and white chess board pattern with the Croats and the combination of red, white and blue or an eagle with the Serbs. 'Instead, the Commission decided that elements of each of the elected solutions should be geometric figures and colours equally acceptable to all. In each of the three proposed solutions (Alternatives 1, 2 and 3), these elements are composed in such a way that they are harmoniously connected and imbued, symbolising in that manner the fateful connection between all citizens and peoples of Bosnia and Herzegovina, their joint life, equality and tolerance'.

Each of the three proposals had a light blue background. This should refer to the United nations, thereby expressing the membership of Bosnia and Herzegovina 'in the global community of states'. The choice of yellow in certain elements in each of the proposals was motivated by the fact that this colour is equally acceptable to all and is 'associated with the sun as the source of light and symbol of life'. Two of the three designs had a triangle 'which as an universal geometric figure can be associated to the geographic form of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina and its three constituent peoples' (Alternatives 1 and 3). One of the designs (the one which was imposed in the end) 'has a certain number of stars, such as can be found on the flag of the European Union, though they are lined up in one line from fringe to fringe'"

There's only one mention of the "European Union", and it could easily be replaced with "United States" in the context it's found in - that's how much symbolism is involved. No mention of the stars representing Europe; just stars "such as can be found on the flag of the European Union".

As for your crap links: why do you think five dodgy site have more authority than my one which includes direct quotes from the designers themselves? And don't start squealing about Wikipedia - it's not a hugely reliable or authoritative source of information.

Yet again, it seems I need to summarise why your original assertion that: Bosnia, if it hangs together, will be the first nation to have modelled its flag, in colors and shape, after the EU one, even as many American nations modelled their flag after the USA flag. That's influence in the world. Is wrong.

1) The flag was not modelled by Bosnians, as you erroneously claimed.
2) It was in fact modeled by an international commission chaired by a foreign bureaucrat named Westendorp.
3) The design was rejected by said Bosnians, even when it was one of only three choices put to them as an ultimatum (and the only one of the three that resembled a conventional national flag).

Only you, with your disdain for democracy and your desperation to project the EU as something admired and influential, could conclude that because a foreign bureaucrat imposed a rejected flag design on an unwilling people, that "that's [EU] influence in the world." Your efforts to defend your overblown original statement are a joke. You'd better start looking elsewhere for you precious EU "influence in the world".
Posted by Bulldog  2004-07-31 2:18:51 AM||   2004-07-31 2:18:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Good one, Bulldog!
Don't forget Aris's virulent hatred of nationalism (of which the US is the chief pusher in the world!) as being the source of all Eeeeeeevil! LOL
Greece must be one pathetic place these days, Olympics or not!
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-07-31 2:43:23 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-07-31 2:43:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 "Sooo clever, Aris, asking someone to prove a negative"

When I can give you a hundred pages that say one thing, it does indeed fall on you to show why you believe the opposite.

And as a sidenote, negatives are the only thing that can be proven in science actually. In science you can disprove theories but never prove them.

So, come on! Find me a single page (one not written by you) that says something to the point of the following: "Contrary to common opinion, the stars aren't supposed to represent Europe, and the color isn't supposed to represent the European flag either"

Can't you find a *single page* that says something to that point? Or that say that the stars and color represent something else, and not Europe?

"No mention of the stars representing Europe"

Yeah, that's why I gave you a dozen other links saying that the stars do indeed represent it.

"As for your crap links: why do you think five dodgy site have more authority than my one which includes direct quotes from the designers themselves? "

Because they are five, and because your "one" doesn't actually say that the flag's stars don't actually disagree with them. And because they are not crappy -- all pages that explain what the color and stars stand for, explain the exact same thing. All the Internet is in agreement, Bulldog, except you!!

And because you show signs of bias by calling the link I offered "crappy" simply because you don't agree with them.

"The design was rejected by said Bosnians,"

As I said already, no it wasn't -- the design that was rejected was the one with the UN blue, not the EU blue. Read your links again.

"Only you, with your disdain for democracy and your desperation to project the EU as something admired and influential, "

Fuck you, Bulldog, ad-hominem asshole. And "disdain for democracy"??? Yeah, that's *exactly* the reason that I care more about democracy and freedom that all the rest of you bastards combined -- Most of you don't give a damn about whether a dictatorship is a dictatorship as long as it's a *friendly* dictatorship.

If I had wanted to talk about the EU being something admired and influential, it'd be a lot easier to do that talking about the design of Bosnia's flag -- I'd have talked about the referendums and polls throughout the continent instead. The flag was a two-line *sidenote*, because in Bosnia it was unique, as opposed to the continent-wide "influence and admiration" for the EU. It was noted simply because of the handy comparison to the influence that the American flag had to the flags of other countries (not all of whom are democratic, btw).

And as for Bosnia itself, I'd have offered this: http://www.delbih.cec.eu.int/en/worddocuments/word234.htm which says that only 2.7% of Bosnians think membership in the EU would be a bad thing for Bosnia, while 73.2% say it would be a good thing.

You see, Bulldog, I'm not *desperate* to show support for the EU. It's a fact that such support and admiration is there. It's you who are desperate to show that it's not, and have fallen to ludicrousness and in your efforts to prove a falsehood.

You asked me where I came by the idea of the Bosnian flag being influenced by the European flag. I answered you where I came by the idea -- I've seen several sources that claim it and not a single one that disputes it. Find me a single source that disputes it and we'll talk again, ad hominem maniacal boy.

And as for Jen she still has a complete disconnect from reality, always lying about what I've said.
Posted by Aris Katsaris  2004-07-31 9:11:34 AM||   2004-07-31 9:11:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 I'm sorry...Who's the freak who disconnected from reality?
HELLO!
After wearing everyone out on a thread, you always come back the next day to add some more belligerent crap!
I swear to Zeus, you would argue about anything, but make it an obscurantist rant that is really wordy, long-winded and boring!
Are you John Kerry?
Posted by GreatestJeneration  2004-07-31 9:45:28 AM|| [http://www.greatestjeneration.com]  2004-07-31 9:45:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 
After wearing everyone out on a thread, you always come back the next day to add some more belligerent crap!

right
Posted by god save us from boors 2004-08-01 3:44:31 PM||   2004-08-01 3:44:31 PM|| Front Page Top

04:39 nuke israel
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