Article

2014-07-21 Europe

Germany commemorates the plot to kill Hitler

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Anguper Hupomosing9418 2014-07-21 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11131 views ] Top

#1 Missed dammit.

Posted by Redneck Jim 2014-07-21 00:35|| 2014-07-21 00:35|| Front Page Top

#2 Stauf should have stayed and positioned himself near Hitler. He would be a martyr - but a successful one.

Posted by borgboy 2014-07-21 03:26|| 2014-07-21 03:26|| Front Page Top

Posted by Lemuel tse Tung6767 2014-07-21 06:37|| 2014-07-21 06:37|| Front Page Top

#4 ...Without taking anything away from the courage of these men - they knew that failure meant death - it should always be remembered that they were doing it almost as much because Hitler was losing, as well as evil. They wanted a peace with the Western Allies so that they could continue to fight the Soviets.

Mike

Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2014-07-21 09:36|| 2014-07-21 09:36|| Front Page Top

#5 My big question, and it's the same for Putin, is: does it actually matter if you kill hitler / putin?

Is the dictator just a symptom of the ruling cabal who will just replace him if he goes.

Or does the human agency of that 1 individual actually make a historical difference.

If you removed Hitler would the Holocaust still have happened?

If you removed Putin would anything be different in Russia?

Maybe nothing would change as that one person must reflect the views of those powerful enough to put them there

Posted by anon1 2014-07-21 09:55|| 2014-07-21 09:55|| Front Page Top

#6 Now, don't be too romantic about these men: most of them conspired because they saw Hitler as a liability. They hoped another leader would be able to broker a separete peace with the Allies so Germany would be able to turnb its forces against Soviet Union and clin to most of its ill gotten gains. Their problem was not the extermination of Jews (most of them were at the very least indifferent to that issue or even mildly favored it) or the mass murders and rapes in Soviet Unions or the projects of having Russians slaves after victory like in pre-Lincoln times. Stauffenberg was nearly alone in opposing Nazism for moral reasons. Nearly alone between the conspirers and nearly alone in Germany.

Posted by JFM 2014-07-21 10:01|| 2014-07-21 10:01|| Front Page Top

#7 All good questions anon1 but difficult to answer as they are hypotheticals. However, 2 maybe 3 cents worth.

#5 My big question, and it's the same for Putin, is: does it actually matter if you kill hitler / putin?

It probably would have depended on the timing. Had this occurred early, it probably would have made a great difference. Later, not so much.

Is the dictator just a symptom of the ruling cabal who will just replace him if he goes.

When Obama goes in 2016, the left will still be pushing open borders, gun control, big government, high taxes, statism, one world order, and other favorites. Some of this also runs through the Pubs. It is larger than one man.

Or does the human agency of that 1 individual actually make a historical difference.

Often true. Likewike, a feckless person without any practical experience and little leadership ability can make a great difference to a country and the world. By doing little or voting present, it too is an action in a sense. The allies prior to the kick-off in WWII were to blame for WWII also. They were into isolationism and appeasement. They should have pulled Hitler's chain early but they didn't.

If you removed Hitler would the Holocaust still have happened?

The Holocaust was well under way when the assassination attempt was made on Hitler. Conditions were different then in the way Hitler came to power and the "stab in back meme" that the German people responded to after WWI. He was very popular among the common German. It is hard to believe that the Holocaust was not accepted by the Germans as it was all around them. They believed Jewish people were the enemy and the cause of many of their woes. Hitler played to their sense of nationalism well with the aid of propaganda and the big lie. Putin does this well too.

If you removed Putin would anything be different in Russia?

Often one person can make a difference, e.g. Reagan, along with Thatcher, Pope Paul II, and Lech Wałęsa in dealing with the USSR. One can also think of Iran in the present. It probably doesn't matter much who is put forth by the mullahs.

Maybe nothing would change as that one person must reflect the views of those powerful enough to put them there

Powerful people put Obama in power and Oberbumble does his best to reflect those interests--their agenda is his agenda.

Obama is talking now. His speech appears to be a little stronger but otherwise more of the same weakness. He could threaten to put missiles back into the countries surrounding Russia. He could push for stronger sanctions. He could offer to supply natural gas to Europe. He could build our military rather take it down. He could pull back on the pink slips of our military. There are many strong actions he could do. He talks a great deal but does little.

Posted by JohnQC 2014-07-21 11:30|| 2014-07-21 11:30|| Front Page Top

#8 Example of a measure Champ could take, but won't:

Dear Vlad: Henceforth, when we see your Anti-Aircraft radars light up anywhere in sector [plus or minus 200k's], we're immediately alerting the Ukrainians as well as the other regional NATO members, and anyone else who wants to know. Have a nice fok'n day you Russian a**hole.

Posted by Besoeker 2014-07-21 12:00|| 2014-07-21 12:00|| Front Page Top

#9 e.g. Reagan, along with Thatcher, Pope Paul II, and Lech Wał�™sa in dealing with the USSR.

Which leads to the observation, that the Russians do think taking someone out has an effect. Not to mention Mr. Trotsky as well.

How much effect was taking out Adm Yamamoto in effecting the Pacific campaign? Enough that the higher ups were willing to gamble their knowledge of the Purple Code in order to get him.

Posted by Procopius2k 2014-07-21 12:15|| 2014-07-21 12:15|| Front Page Top

23:27 JosephMendiola
23:08 JosephMendiola
23:02 JosephMendiola
22:55 JosephMendiola
22:45 JosephMendiola
22:42 JosephMendiola
21:52 rammer
21:27 Charles
20:32 Hupomoque Oppressor of the Leprechauns2039
19:45 JosephMendiola
19:43 JosephMendiola
19:22 Thineng Angailet7166
19:08 49 Pan
19:05 49 Pan
18:59 Alaska Paul
18:54 49 Pan
18:51 Uncle Phester
17:56 Rambler in Virginia
17:52 SteveS
17:49 JohnQC
17:47 CrazyFool
17:35 Ebbang Uluque6305
17:14 Albert Noodleman2094
17:06 Old Patriot