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2006-05-01 Science & Technology

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Posted by Anonymoose 2006-05-01 09:56|| || Front Page|| [11130 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Improbable. Ethanol only has about half the energy of gasoline, and even when best used in fuel cells instead of internal combustion engines, it is best for stable current, low-power applications.

Bio-diesel, when produced by industrial CO2 pumped through algae, a process far less expensive than plant crop bio-diesel, *does*, however have the high power curve needed for such uses as automotive and industrial. This is augumented with Mexican natural gas.

The bottom line is not to eliminate gasoline consumption, but to reduce it to the point where we only need to import light/sweet crude if the price is competitive. In future, Canada will probably be able to provide most of the USs needs for lsc.

Posted by Anonymoose 2006-05-01 10:07|| 2006-05-01 10:07|| Front Page Top

#2 What an idiot. Pretty much the only biomass that doesn't require substantial fossil fuel inputs, making the biomass of questionable value in replacing imported energy, is trees.

Otherwise, you can perfect the process to produce ethanol to run cars, you could also perfect the process to produce 12 year old Scotch whiskey to run cars. The point being, what are the &&&&ing energy inputs to do it.

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-05-01 10:17|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-05-01 10:17|| Front Page Top

#3 Nice, but we still need hydrogen fuel cells (electric cars). And the Nuclear plants that make them feasable.

Until then we are only dodging the issue, not solving the problem.

Posted by OldSpook 2006-05-01 10:27|| 2006-05-01 10:27|| Front Page Top

#4 **Minor rant**

This whole 'debate' reminds me of perpetual motion. If we can obfuscate the whole issue enough then we can convince people that fuel x, that might be produced from source why y which in turns depends on energy source z. Each of which has 50% conversion rate (wildly optimistic for the real world) means you end up with 25% of the energy you started with.

Moronic doesn't begin to describe this nonsense. It's perpetual motion for the 21st century

(end rant)

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-05-01 10:28|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-05-01 10:28|| Front Page Top

#5 Bodman estimated that by 2025, ethanol production would replace about 20 percent of total U.S. gasoline consumption.

That should soak up the majority of the corn crop. The starving muslims better lower their expectations of continuing jizya.

Posted by ed 2006-05-01 10:35|| 2006-05-01 10:35|| Front Page Top

#6 Actually the efficiency rate on Nukes making electricity, which is transmitted on the power infrastructure to local "gas stations", where you have electrolytic cracked hydrogen, and then that is then used in fuel cells for vehicles, that chain is highly efficient - its just pricey due to the need to establish infrastructure and the cost of the (and the legal morass that Nuc power has become).

[need punctuation somewhere in tht mess above but too busy to do it properly - my apologies]

Posted by OldSpook 2006-05-01 10:42|| 2006-05-01 10:42|| Front Page Top

#7 LOL. Well, heck, OS, James Joyce got away with it with "Ulysses" why shouldn't you.

Posted by GK 2006-05-01 12:07|| 2006-05-01 12:07|| Front Page Top

#8 Article in page 4- "Ethanol, a tragedy in 3 acts" has a good backgrounder about ethanol.

Posted by Grunter 2006-05-01 12:17|| 2006-05-01 12:17|| Front Page Top

#9 Focus on electricity, everything we need (infrastructure, etc) is already in place, and generate it by the best available means, nuke, coal, whatever. Eliminate the double-talk and exotic bullshit.

Think about all those premium gas station corner locations...

Posted by Fluque Hupeang2505 2006-05-01 12:37|| 2006-05-01 12:37|| Front Page Top

#10 where we will have designed the enzymes

In the early 80s Genetech had a process that they tested on some small farms in Nebraska. They had some geneticly engineered bugs and enzymes that took farm plant wastes (corn stalks) and turned it into methanol. It produced enough to run the farm (tractors, deep wells, combines, generators...etc) and produced feed suplements and fertilizer.

Kind of neat. My hope is that this research is for the conversion of non-seed farm products.

If the government would allow the use of GM nitrogen fixing corn for all our corn grown it would be even better. Most fertilizer is produced from oil, shipped using oil fuels and applied using oil fuels. Being able to reduce or eliminate this cycle would result in a large energy savings

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-01 12:50|| 2006-05-01 12:50|| Front Page Top

#11 Yeah BUT...
For now, Drill for Oil.

You are either part of the problem or the solution in a global energy crises.

Posted by closedanger">closedanger 2006-05-01 13:06|| 2006-05-01 13:06|| Front Page Top

#12 I agree on drilling.
Also, the stats on cost, pollution and energy benefits from the North Dakota coal gasification are very good. It would make a lot of sense to duplicate this plant design.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-01 13:26|| 2006-05-01 13:26|| Front Page Top

#13 Great Plains Synfuels Plant

Company Information
About Dakota Gasification Company and the Great Plains Synfuels Plant

The Great Plains Synfuels Plant appears as a massive complex of pipes, towers and buildings on the rolling North Dakota prairie. This plant is actually much more: it is part of an American dream. The 1970s energy crisis spawned a vision of greater U.S. energy independence. Abundant lignite resources underlying the North Dakota plains held promise as a vast synthetic fuel source. The Synfuels plant began operating in 1984 and today produces more than 54 billion standard cubic feet of natural gas annually. Coal consumption exceeds 6 million tons each year.

Synthetic Natural Gas leaves the plant through a 2-foot-diameter pipeline, traveling 34 miles south. There it joins the Northern Border Pipeline, which transports the gas to four pipeline companies. These companies supply thousands of homes and businesses in the eastern United States.

In addition to natural gas, the Synfuels plant produces fertilizers, solvents, phenol, carbon dioxide, and other chemicals. Carbon dioxide is now part of an international venture for enhanced oil recovery in Canada. For more product information, please refer to Products.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-01 13:32|| 2006-05-01 13:32|| Front Page Top

#14 Nuke plants creating power for cars is better than ethenol/biodiesel or any other solution. We can use ethenol/biodiesel now, as an additive and for existing cars while we ramp up the newer stuff but nobody should think they are the end game.

The end game is hydrogen or if the Toshiba quick recharge battery works out we can skip hydrogen and jump straight into electric cars.

Posted by rjschwarz 2006-05-01 14:17|| 2006-05-01 14:17|| Front Page Top

#15 rjschwarz - Of course if your not afraid of the burns in an accident....
200 lbs of molten Salt (NaCl) can give off the equiv. power of 20 gals of gasoline at well under %50 efficiency in going from the molten to solid phase transition.

If you did thermo instead of electric batteries and used the heat its a done deal.
Nuke - elect - elect-heated salt in an insulated container - elect or therm powered car.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-01 14:58|| 2006-05-01 14:58|| Front Page Top

#16 We need to go with the cheapest an most abundant process. Screw all the talking. We need to get our energy house in order now. We need to do it economically too. Screw all the pie in the sky stuff that is years and billions of dollars away. We need to act now. We need to just run over anyone political or commercial that gets in the way. The only thing Jimmy Carter ever said that is true is the our need for energy independence is the "moral equivalent of war." Most of our energy problems are selfinflicted. We have regulations that stifle energy independence and are not helping us we need to get rid of them and the luddites that back them. We have ecconomic structures that inhibit our gettign off the oil teat. We have to do away with them.

Electricity for transportation etcetera. We have the technology now to do this and can start right away. Improvements can be made as we tool up and switch over. Many current vehicles can be converted. The more we do the cheaper and better it will get. Nuclear power, Coal fired plants and what ever else makes sense economically for electrical production.

We need to get after a replacements for petrochemicals made from imported oil that we can produce from Coal, Ag waste and recycled plastics and what not.

We shouldn't import a drop of oil or natural gas except from out immeadiate neighbors and we need to stop that as well. Water and Energy drive our lifestyle we need to be entirely self-sufficient from a national security and ecconomic stand point.

Talk and political blathering is cheap. Show me the nuclear power plants and clean coal plants being built and the power lines connecting to the grid. Show me the infrastructure being put in place.

Talk is worthless. Action is needed.

Posted by SPoD 2006-05-01 15:24|| http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/]">[http://sockpuppetofdoom.blogspot.com/] 2006-05-01 15:24|| Front Page Top

#17 Talk and political blathering is cheap. Show me the nuclear power plants and clean coal plants being built and the power lines connecting to the grid. Show me the infrastructure being put in place.

Can't show you that, but I can show you Exxon profits of $ 36 billion last year. I can also show you retiring Exxon chairman Lee Raymond's retirment portfolio of $ 400 million, $ 1 million consulting deal, two years of body guards (extendable), a car and driver, use of corporate jet, etc. Follow the money.

Posted by Besoeker 2006-05-01 16:26|| 2006-05-01 16:26|| Front Page Top

#18 Let's take the oil billionaires money and LOWER GASOLINE PRICES WHILE RAPING THE RICH!

It's a sure fire political winner. Stupid yet useful.

Posted by 6 2006-05-01 17:00|| 2006-05-01 17:00|| Front Page Top

#19 Besoeker, yea, that's the ticket.

Actually, follow the money is a good idea, but you are paying attention to loose change. The Exxon dude negotiated the package and got it, good for him. He'll either reinvest, or his heirs would squander the inheritance in no time. Either way, the monies will be thrown back into economy, nobody will make a hoard and sit on it.

The real money is the tax that the gov't imposes on oil imports. Without that, the gummint would have serious cash flow issues. Thus, I would not see the oil lobby enterest as an impediment to development of other fuels--they could after all adjust fairly well to other types if necessity steps in and make a buck another way--but I can see the reticence of gummint as it would be hard hit the most and it would have to give up the largesse that is so accustomed to.

As they say, my 2¢

Posted by twobyfour 2006-05-01 17:42|| 2006-05-01 17:42|| Front Page Top

#20 I agree that the solution is to use the most efficient and cheapest means of generating electricty. I would add that synthetic natural gas is also important, not least because existing vehicles can be converted to run on NG at moderate cost. Here in Perth, about 20% of all vehicle miles are powered by NG.

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2006-05-01 17:45|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2006-05-01 17:45|| Front Page Top

#21 a good chance 2 to 4 nuke plants break ground by year's end.

Posted by 3dc 2006-05-01 17:45|| 2006-05-01 17:45|| Front Page Top

#22 What about turkey guts into fuel oil? See - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_depolymerization

And a recent article in Discover Magazine.

Posted by Bobby 2006-05-01 21:42|| 2006-05-01 21:42|| Front Page Top

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