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2007-04-21 Olde Tyme Religion
Pope says unbaptized babies can go to heaven
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Posted by Fred 2007-04-21 00:00|| || Front Page|| [11138 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 cool, and collect $200
Posted by Captain America 2007-04-21 01:26||   2007-04-21 01:26|| Front Page Top

#2 So, no purgatory for the faultless babes. That ranks right up there with the earth orbiting the sun. Whoop-tee-fucking-doo.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-21 01:58||   2007-04-21 01:58|| Front Page Top

#3 original sin - the sin that the faithful believe all children are born with

One of the greatest abominations that was ever created in the mind of man. Man is perfectable, elsewise the concept of heaven could not possibly exist.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-21 02:04||   2007-04-21 02:04|| Front Page Top

#4 Aw, come on, Zen....humans are perfectable? That sounds like the mythology all Utopian scenarios are built upon, and we know where all those roads have led eventually. It's usually Hell on Earth as some "benevolent" dictator gets rid of the imperfect specimens.

I may be incorrect, but I don't recall heaven being reserved for the perfect, merely the good, decent and/or righteous. You can be all three without being perfect.

Humans simply aren't perfectable. Besides, perfect is boring! Our faults, eccentricities and quirks make us interesting. ;)
Posted by Swamp Blondie 2007-04-21 02:36||   2007-04-21 02:36|| Front Page Top

#5 Zen, Man is NOT perfectible. I've seen too many of them, I know better. I've also read my history of those who believe that "Man is can be Perfected on Earth" as well - eugenicists, Nazis, Communists, etc.

Uniformly bad results.

The difference is theologically speaking that Original Sin does exist, but it was extinguished on the Cross (along with fulfillment of the original Abrahamic Covenant). What this is, is a reading that goes back to the early church, in that someone that is incapable of sins of the will, will have the stain of original sin removed by baptism due to Jesus' sacrifice. And "baptism of intent" is enough to cover these souls. It all comes when the soul has to come to face its maker and say "I believe", or "I deny you". Free will.

Heaven is for the contrite and forgiven - being good isn't good enough, we all sin. How do you fix that breach between your imperfections and the perfection of God? All you have to do is ask! Honestly confess your sins to God, ALL of them, as way of acknowledging them and they will be forgiven if they are offered up in true contrition and reconciliation.

As we teach in Catechism class: God's capacity to forgive us FAR exceeds our capability to sin.
Posted by OldSpook 2007-04-21 03:45||   2007-04-21 03:45|| Front Page Top

#6 People are not perfectible. Improvable? Absolutely! I have ever this hope for my very own self. But, perfection is not possible so long as biochemistry is part of the equation, and probably not even were we to become encoded in the universe's raw energy, given the unavoidable fact of entropy. I don't hold with the doctrine of original sin, and I figure I'll find out the details of the afterlife when I get there -- or not as the case may be -- but I don't give myself the 100% chance of failure of striving after an impossible-for-those-with-free-will perfection. I read somewhere that God's angels are perfect, but only so long as they have no free will of their own, being merely instruments of God's will. I've no way of knowing if that's true, but it certainly gave me pause.
Posted by trailing wife 2007-04-21 07:34||   2007-04-21 07:34|| Front Page Top

#7 I assume this also applies to an unbaptized fœtus.
Posted by Excalibur 2007-04-21 07:59||   2007-04-21 07:59|| Front Page Top

#8 Via Amy Welborn's site, Zadok The Roman casts a professional eye on the matter here.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-21 08:45||   2007-04-21 08:45|| Front Page Top

#9 However the new and improved modern sin is that you are born upon mother Gaia and pollute her kingdom and the only salvation lies upon the Red Green world of the Apostles of Gore.
Posted by Procopius2k 2007-04-21 09:08||   2007-04-21 09:08|| Front Page Top

#10 Man Ima still trying to come up with an Original Sin, I came close with the bong, the mullet and the left ear, but I found out later it had been done back in 1374.
Posted by Shipman">Shipman  2007-04-21 11:19||   2007-04-21 11:19|| Front Page Top

#11 Growing up, I always thought of limbo as heaven with no television.
Posted by tu3031 2007-04-21 11:41||   2007-04-21 11:41|| Front Page Top

#12 Ifn ya stop to think about it, if things had turned out as God wanted we's all be runnin' around the Garden of Eden nekkid as aigs with narry a care in the world. Dang, why'd they have to eat that apple?
Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues  2007-04-21 13:46||   2007-04-21 13:46|| Front Page Top

#13 Humans simply aren't perfectable. Besides, perfect is boring! Our faults, eccentricities and quirks make us interesting.

The philosophy of Zen makes reference to the “charismatic imperfection of man”. I fail to see where “eccentricities and quirks” need be sinful or malign in nature. If we limit our personal faults to those which harm only ourselves is that such a disgrace? I agree that our idiosyncrasies give us delightful individuality but still maintain that we must hold ideals as worthy of striving for. Happily settling for second best is the highway to hell.

Man is NOT perfectible. I've seen too many of them, I know better.

While I deeply respect your own well-taken positions, OldSpook, I think we can safely agree that your career has forced you into contact with some of humanity’s most flawed specimens. Just as in how one cannot prove a negative, none of us can comprehensively state in provable terms that mankind is unalterably flawed. Yes, our bodies are not immortal and must eventually fail us, but that in no way prevents the spirit from seeking and finding purity.

being good isn't good enough, we all sin.

It is impossible for me to believe that not once in all earth’s history has there ever existed a blameless person. In fact, the overall conduct of mankind must be, in the majority, good otherwise our cumulative evil would have erased us from this world centuries before now.

Long ago, neither before God was even consciously conceived of nor Jesus born on earth, there had to have existed some of those blameless folk. Shall they be condemned to everlasting Hell solely due to their personal ignorance of God? Eternally damned despite their having lived a pure life? This is something I refuse to imagine. Furthermore, if there is a God, that being is a loving, forgiving and tolerant spirit which could not possibly be of such shallow or fragile ego as to resent one whose soul is pure but ignorant of His existence.

How do you fix that breach between your imperfections and the perfection of God?

You bridge that gulf by holding ideals as a standard, even if they are unreachable, they must be held nonetheless. Goodness must be chosen over cruelty. Mercy over brutality. Justice over prejudice. With or without God, each of us can uplift ourselves while bearing witness to the splendor and dignity of human life. To insist that only through some arbitrary conduit such as a priest or church can man thereby redeem himself is to deny man’s ability to bring his world to order or conduct himself with righteousness.

God's capacity to forgive us FAR exceeds our capability to sin.

This must be so or else such a petty and vengeful deity would long ago have tired of His creation’s human errors and vanquished the lot of us.

People are not perfectible. Improvable? Absolutely! I have ever this hope for my very own self. But, perfection is not possible so long as biochemistry is part of the equation, and probably not even were we to become encoded in the universe's raw energy, given the unavoidable fact of entropy.

Which is why I fully recognized the mortality of our material bodies but still hold that our spirits must strive for perfection. Indeed, if our spirits were created by the hand of God, must not there then be the seed of perfection in us? How could God knowingly create a hopelessly flawed being? I cheerfully admit that many people somehow manage to willfully ignore the need to do good in this world. This in no way eliminates any and all possibility of us attaining our ideals.

Pursuit of the ideal is a core element of optimism. That eternal hopefulness is a fundamental component of love. It is the love of all that is good which invalidates pessimism or cynical thought. This is what has allowed the human spirit to flourish through the ages with such abundant genius and creativity.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-21 13:59||   2007-04-21 13:59|| Front Page Top

#14 What about kittens?
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-21 17:13||   2007-04-21 17:13|| Front Page Top

#15 They're for pussies to worry about.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-21 18:18||   2007-04-21 18:18|| Front Page Top

#16 LOL, thanks Zen!
Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger  2007-04-21 18:27||   2007-04-21 18:27|| Front Page Top

#17  How could God knowingly create a hopelessly flawed being?

If we were born perfect, we'd be gods, too.
Posted by mrp 2007-04-21 18:49||   2007-04-21 18:49|| Front Page Top

#18 did someone call for a hopelessly flawed being? I was paged to the white courtesy phone...
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-21 20:36||   2007-04-21 20:36|| Front Page Top

#19 If we were born perfect, we'd be gods, too.

You are making an unmerited jump between optimising the human condition and existence of a supreme being. We need not aspire to God-like powers in the pursuit of spiritual perfection. What if God does not exist, what non-existent pinnacle would we be scaling? I merely maintain that mankind is capable of attaining a state of ideal awareness wherein the vast majority of its destructive inclinations are cast aside in the name of moral and ethical decency.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-21 21:56||   2007-04-21 21:56|| Front Page Top

#20 If you answer the call, there's hope for you yet, Frank.
Posted by Zenster">Zenster  2007-04-21 21:57||   2007-04-21 21:57|| Front Page Top

#21 my flaws are too large too ignore. Better to acknowledge and do better. No excuses
Posted by Frank G">Frank G  2007-04-21 21:59||   2007-04-21 21:59|| Front Page Top

23:52 Zenster
23:52 Glereque Scourge of the Leprechauns6947
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