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2004-04-21 Home Front: Politix
Kerry "Unofficially Credited" with Killing 20 Enemy
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Posted by Frank G 2004-04-21 11:31:12 AM|| || Front Page|| [11132 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 How many of them were wounded at the time?
Posted by Laurence of the Rats  2004-04-21 11:35:11 AM||   2004-04-21 11:35:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Who's enemies were killed, America's or Kerry's?
Posted by Chris W.  2004-04-21 11:36:05 AM||   2004-04-21 11:36:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Who was this officer who rated Kerry in the report? Some college buddy of his dad?
This guy nearly has Kerry walking on water.

Where are the rest of the docs?

"Oops our scanner is having trouble. We need another million in contributions before we buy another. The rest of the documents have to wait"
Posted by Anonymous4052 2004-04-21 11:42:09 AM||   2004-04-21 11:42:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Direct link to document
Posted by Anonymous4052 2004-04-21 11:43:28 AM||   2004-04-21 11:43:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Maybe they were the mamasans he claimed in 1971 to have killed.
Posted by ed 2004-04-21 11:53:27 AM||   2004-04-21 11:53:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Meanwhile, today's NY Post reports:

Kerry aides said they'd post 150 documents on his Web site but weren't able to locate a full report on the wound that led to his first Purple Heart - which Kerry's commander in Vietnam says he didn't deserve.
Posted by growler 2004-04-21 11:57:44 AM||   2004-04-21 11:57:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I notice his visit to Vietnam grew by two months, too...
Posted by Fred  2004-04-21 12:00:02 PM||   2004-04-21 12:00:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#8 Bwahhahaaahahaaa....I wonder how the LLL will react to this! Kerry the mass murderer, baby-killer. This has got to cause the aging hippies some consternation. Vote for GW, who successfully avoided the war and killing of babies - or Kerry - who gleefully mowed them down.

snicker. The blinding light of reality is harsh for those who've spent a lifetime sheltering their eyes from it.
Posted by B 2004-04-21 12:03:12 PM||   2004-04-21 12:03:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#9 Saw elsewhere that this may be a rope-a-dope by Kerry similar to Bush - wait for public demand and then release the records which makes him look good. We'll have to see if any negative data comes out or if it is all positive. The details behind the 3 purple hearts will be the most interesting.
Posted by AWW 2004-04-21 12:12:50 PM||   2004-04-21 12:12:50 PM|| Front Page Top

#10 heh..heh...but I'm sure they will give him a pass. Afterall, he killed them, but then later changed his mind and felt bad about it.
Posted by B 2004-04-21 12:14:46 PM||   2004-04-21 12:14:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#11 Actually AWW the three purple hearts medical info has been released. #1 - Shrapnel in the left arm. #2 - Shrapnel in the left thigh. #3 - Shrapnel in the left buttock. Its always on the left.

Kerry's Wounds
Posted by Anonymous4052 2004-04-21 12:31:26 PM||   2004-04-21 12:31:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Who was this officer who rated Kerry in the report? Some college buddy of his dad? This guy nearly has Kerry walking on water.

Never take seriously anything written in a Navy fitness report. They never serously evalutate performance. They are used to get a subordinate either promoted or fired (by non-promotion). Even reports that are meant to sabotage a career appear to a casual reader to make the subject look good. No one gets outright trashed. The difference between a good report and a bad report is subtle. It can come down to the number and type of superlatives used and the recommendations. Did the reviewer STRENUOUSLY recommend the officer for command at a young age? Did he STRENUOUSLY recommend the officer for sought after billets and post-graduate school? ANY mark on the report that is not the highest available indicates the reviewer is trashing the reviewee, especially for a lieutenant on a second tour. Notice his "command" grade (among others)is not perfect. Come time for selection for command, this report would get him left behind and the reviewer knows it. This report is THOROUGHLY mediocre. It would ensure he gets no where in the Navy.
Posted by Zpaz 2004-04-21 12:50:56 PM||   2004-04-21 12:50:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Zpaz

first, I agree with your description of the fitness report philosophy as it exists today and for the past 20 years or so; however, this fitrep was done 35 years ago and the philosophy then may not have been what it is now

second, even a mediocre fitrep nowadays would probably not be enough to prevent promotion from LTjg to LT.

third, I don't understand the 'unofficially credited with killing 20 enemy...' comment - the 20 number has never come out in any of the interviews with his crew (all but one of whom praise Kerry btw), this may be an estimate of the crew's cumulative record over the 4 months he was skipper or it may be a swag that was standard for the time
Posted by mhw 2004-04-21 1:02:53 PM||   2004-04-21 1:02:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 I can see this as a rope a dope of sort. But think if that is the case how they will spin it and what the outcome will be will be different. You know if a leftist thinks of it, it will be bass ackwards in the outcomes.

F'rinstance: Kerry spins himself as a brave warrior for the Navy who gained a conscience and protested against the war, coz it was wrong, then became a socialist to help mankind.

Planned outcome: Voters see Kerry as a brave warrior for the Navy who gained a conscience and protested against the war, coz it was wrong, then became a socialist to help mankind, they vote for him in record numbers and we get our first true socialist government.

Possible outcome: Voters see Kerry as a brave warrior for the Navy who gained a conscience and protested against the war, coz it was wrong, then became a socialist to help mankind; his backers weigh in and tell folks they with Kerry will end the war coz the US is really such a giant, they don't need to fight terrorists overseas. 911 was an abberration. Lay down our arms coz we want to be a good world community 'citizen.' Voters buy part of the argument, and vote for Bush.

Probable outcome: Voters see Kerry as a socialist opportunist whose unwillingness to back troops still in Viet Nam, and unwilling to back troops now which will translate into 10 percent more votes for Bush and 20 percent more for Nader (5 percent tops)

Best outcome: Kerry gets before the demo convention telling the dems his socialist views all these years were wrong, and he is becoming a republican just as soon as he can convince the Heinz Foundation and the Ray Kroc Foundation to defund NPR and the Bush family pastor can schedule a baptism for him and Teresa.

Hillery becomes the 'presumptive nominee. In Nov. American socialism is dead for all time from a Bush super-landslide.
Posted by badanov  2004-04-21 1:05:22 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org/weblog]  2004-04-21 1:05:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 kerry shuld be making nambo movie.
Posted by muck4doo 2004-04-21 1:17:19 PM|| [http://www.lettuceladies.com/meet.html]  2004-04-21 1:17:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Zpaz, I used to write evaluations on people and unless your were going to courts-martial them, they usually had glowing reports. I could even make it seem that troop performed miracles but his only accomplishment was not get lost on his way to the latrine. While I am sure officer reports are of a higher standard, you can tell by the verbiage if the person is a zero or a hero. The part that I don’t get is that Kerry’s people say that the Navy requested he get shipped out, rather than he requesting a transfer. Why would the Navy want to ship out an Officer that: “exhibited "all of the traits desired of an officer in a combat environment” ? Sounds like they were happy he didn’t get anyone under his command killed and didn’t sink his vessel. Just my two cents.
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2004-04-21 1:22:03 PM||   2004-04-21 1:22:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 CyberSarge- I defer to your experience. Yet all those left-hand column X's (= Civillian A's) are curious.
Posted by Anonymous4052 2004-04-21 1:30:12 PM||   2004-04-21 1:30:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Zpaz, I just read the fitrep and it’s a ZERO not a hero. Anyone know if he got the SS with ‘V’ device or an end of tour one? For you non military: You usually get a medal/award when you leave an assignment and these are called End of Tour awards. If you are awarded a Medal for an act of heroism, the award is considered to be with Valor and you get gold ‘V’ attached to it. Giving out Bronze and Silver Star awards as End of Tours was common practice in some branches in Vietnam.
Posted by Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter)  2004-04-21 1:35:57 PM||   2004-04-21 1:35:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 mhw - You are right. This report is not bad enough to prevent promotion to LT. It would kill him when it comes to selection for ship command or even selection for Lieutenant Commander. A defintite zero Cyber. The higher you go in rank, the more competitive the selectees become. A selection board is forced to look to the early career reports to find tie breakers. An early ZERO report can be the decision maker for a board.
Posted by Zpaz 2004-04-21 2:00:33 PM||   2004-04-21 2:00:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 Re promotion: It all depends whether the military is hiring or firing. A lot of real bad officers were promoted in the 60's. The old timers told me that all you needed was a "satisfactory" eval to advance. That all changed during the early 70's. In the late 80's and early 90's, one less than perfect "front side" rating (these were 1-5 ratings of questions like, "Does the officer exhibit tactical competence.") got you passed over to CPT (O-3). Right now the Army is masking all lieutenant evaluations. In other words, when you go to the major's or lieutenant colonel's board, the board members can't even see the LT eval when they consider your file.
Posted by 11A5S 2004-04-21 2:16:56 PM||   2004-04-21 2:16:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Lame eval full of boiler plate phrases, bet it only took the rater five minutes to write.
Posted by Steve  2004-04-21 2:24:04 PM||   2004-04-21 2:24:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 I could be wrong but I never heard that he served a full tour. I thought he was halfway through his first and only tour when the 3rd purple heart got him a trip stateside.
Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-21 2:40:10 PM||   2004-04-21 2:40:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Anonymous4052 - thanks. I'm not military and was too young for Vietnam so I don't want to criticize Kerry's war record. However, I was led to believe the Purple Heart is for significant injuries. The documents show Kerry was certainly wounded by shrapnel but I wonder how many stitches these injuries took.
Posted by AWW 2004-04-21 2:41:29 PM||   2004-04-21 2:41:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 #11 --

Only TWO reports were released. His first "injury," which is still under question, has no report to go along with it. From the AP:

Besides the citations and certificates posted on the Internet, Kerry's campaign provided The Associated Press with declassified reports that briefly explain the injuries that led to Kerry's final two Purple Heart awards.

They show Kerry had shrapnel wounds in his left thigh after his boat came under intense fire on Feb. 20, 1969, and he suffered shrapnel wounds in his left buttock and contusions on his right forearm when a mine detonated close to his boat on March 13, 1969.

The campaign could not locate a similar report for Kerry's original Purple Heart. As evidence that Kerry was wounded, campaign spokesman Michael Meehan showed The Associated Press a "Sick Call Treatment Record" from Kerry's personal files that included a brief written note dated Dec. 3, 1968, and stamped from the naval support facility at Cam Ranh Bay.
Posted by growler 2004-04-21 2:44:15 PM||   2004-04-21 2:44:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 How insensitive. I could never ever vote for someone who could take a precious human life.

At least George W. Bush had the moral courage to stay home and not do the evil bidding of the US Government to go off and kill our little yellow brothers.

Guess I'll just have to vote for GWB

oh yeah
Posted by Michael  2004-04-21 4:21:09 PM||   2004-04-21 4:21:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Warning: the following is in devil's advocate mode ie I am looking for everything bad about Kerry like a devil's advocate worth his salt

1) Swifts were small, small boats. A crew of four + an officer. Meaning that Kerry had only four witnesses for his actions. Four witnesses who
were his subbordinates and got Bronze Stars through their commendations. And he was rich respective to mere sailors.

2) This guy had travelled in Kennedy's yacht. When Kennedy was President. A guy wih _lots_ of contacts in high spheres of the Johnson administrations. Contacts who can greatly accelerate or hinder the career of his commanding officer.

3) Am I the only one who, when told about Kerry accidentally killing a squad of South Vietnamese soldiers and a South Vietnamese family thinks that this is the behaviour of a terrified youngster jumping 10 yards high at the slightest noise and firing towards its source? That it is unlikely this nervous youngster could have been hero material?

4) Am I the only one who thinks that not one, not two but three wounds so small are far too much luck. Wounds who had only four witnesses, wounds who get him out of Vietnam. Am I the only one who thinks this smells self-inflicted wounds?
Posted by JFM  2004-04-21 4:26:07 PM||   2004-04-21 4:26:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 JFM,

Yes on 1,2,3. After all, how many people do you know who can get out of theater early to be come an admiral's aide in their hometown, blow him off to commit treason, and then enter politics.

As for 4, he probably got hit by splinters twice (fiberglass boat, bandaid and bactine as mentioned in a previous article) and once by some shrapnel (stitches and 1 day off?). A self inflicted wound would have much more serious. He was in the line of fire and shot back. Have to give him credit for that.
Posted by ed 2004-04-21 4:40:58 PM||   2004-04-21 4:40:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 If Kerry's wounds were severe enough to warrant a decoration for bravery, I would imagine it took more than a sick call visit to treat. Perhaps the press should simply ask him to show the public his 'war wounds.' 'Contusions' are simply bruises and generally don't warrant a PH.

I know, from experience, that in some commands/branches of service, PHs do get handed out rather casually. A good friend (female, assigned as a cook while in the Army) was awarded one after having a fragment of eggshell fished out of her eye. After protesting that she hadn't been wounded or done anything to deserve it, she was shown the 1650/3 (that's what we called it in the Navy, Recommendation for Award) and it said "shell fragment in eye." You'll note other politicians with Purple Hearts (i.e., Bob Michel, retired Democratic congressman of IL) are both very casual and entirely open about it; Michel's
biography (www.dirksencenter.org) mentions but doesn't dwell on it.

The key part of the eval is at the bottom of page 1, where Kerry is ranked against his peers: he is ranked 7 of 8. That is, there were six other officers of his rank performing similar duties who were doing a better job than he was. I asked my husband - who was active duty during Vietnam and was there several times, though wasn't specifically assigned there (his ship visited) about evals (fitreps, in Navy parlance) way back then. He said the real "kiss of death" would have been that Kerry didn't have all his check marks in the second-from-left column (known as the 1% outstanding or "one percenter" column) and wasn't recommended for accelerated promotion ahead of his peers (RAP'd). He also found it telling that the narrative on page 2 highlighted Kerry's "imagination" rather than something like "coolness under fire" or "courage," and that the "unofficial" kills were credited. He suggested, based on his experience as a CO, the reporting senior was trying to send a subtle message about Kerry's tendency to prevaricate and exaggerate. His analysis was that Kerry would probably have been promoted to Lt (O-3), which is pretty much a warm-body promotion any way (i.e., if you have a body temperature near normal and you've served 4 years without doing something really awful, like grounding the ship, you'll get promoted) but he would not have been promoted after that.

Of course, I don't like the guy, but I won't be satisfied till he releases his medical records and 1650/3s.

Sofia
Posted by Sofia  2004-04-21 5:06:41 PM||   2004-04-21 5:06:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 JFM - Kennedy connections didn't get you too far with either the Johnson or Nixon admins, which is when Kerry was on active duty. A rich boy willing to actually serve (not a shot at GWB, the Guard counts for me) may have been enough of a curiosity to get him some breaks, though.
Posted by VAMark 2004-04-21 5:14:46 PM||   2004-04-21 5:14:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 VAMark - and that's exactly why I won't vote for Kerry. He's a cold blooded killer. At least GW never KILLED anyone.

Vote Nader.

Anybody got any weed?
Posted by thinkitthrough 2004-04-21 5:23:09 PM||   2004-04-21 5:23:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 I wonder if this included "...the five that were close enough to blow their last breath in my face."
Posted by Anonymous 2004-04-21 5:23:18 PM||   2004-04-21 5:23:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 LOL TIT
Posted by Shipman 2004-04-21 5:33:28 PM||   2004-04-21 5:33:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Kerry is literally, formally, joining with the spin on his military records.
Posted by Anonymous4052 2004-04-21 6:14:09 PM||   2004-04-21 6:14:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 A friend of mine has 11 Purple Hearts, 3 Bronze Stars, and a Silver Star, earned in three tours in Vietnam as a Navy medic attached to a Marine unit. Each one of those Purple Hearts resulted in his being hospitalized for a MINIMUM of three days, and one put him in a hospital for two months. John Kerry's "wounds" and "medals" don't impress me a bit. He should talk to some of the REAL heros from the Vietnam war - except most of them would spit in his face.
Posted by Old Patriot  2004-04-21 9:33:14 PM|| [http://users.codenet.net/mweather/default.htm]  2004-04-21 9:33:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 The extra months might be from the fact that he was in theater on a tin can as well, but that time should have shown up on his transfer fitrep.
Posted by Super Hose  2004-04-22 4:34:36 AM||   2004-04-22 4:34:36 AM|| Front Page Top

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