Article

2004-04-05 Iraq-Jordan

Archived material is restricted to Rantburg regulars and members. If you need access email fred.pruitt=at=gmail.com with your nick to be added to the members list. There is no charge to join Rantburg as a member.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-05 2:24:42 AM|| || Front Page|| [11136 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I'm still reading (thx for login!!!) but here is link to Fallujah map so you can keep up with references you're bound to hear... hat tip to Belmont Club. Wretchard talks about how he thinks a sweep should happen in Fallujah under the "Addendum" section of that day's post.

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 2:45:39 AM|| 2004-04-05 2:45:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 So it's targeted at first using whatever intel they have for specific individuals.

And then... a general city-wide sweep, I hope. OS need to be advising on this Op.

None of the TV News outlets seem to be covering this story yet... I've checked Fox, MSNBC, CNN, and BBC so far. If anyone locates one that is, please post.

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 3:04:32 AM|| 2004-04-05 3:04:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 I've seen the Map from Wretchard also. A good map is a thing of beauty. But I do have one question.

I see two river crossing bridges...Highway 10 and the smaller crossing just to the north. Does anyone know at which crossing the ambush and atrocities ocurred?

Thanks

Posted by Traveller 2004-04-05 4:23:32 AM|| 2004-04-05 4:23:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Traveller - I understand (and could be wrong, of course) that the civilian attack occurred at the Highway 10 bridge on the Western side of town. The story I read said they had screwed up in their little convoy (2 SUV's and 3 trucks - which were allowed to escape when the shooting started). They were supposed to go to a CA Mil camp on the West side of Fallujah but took a wrong turn before they came to the town and found themselves on the East side. They decided to take Highway 10 and cut through the heart of town. I don't know anything about reasoning (unreported) but they had comms gear and apparently notified the camp of what they were doing. I think the camp is call "TQ" or similar. I certainly may have it wrong - I'm telling this from memory and, hey, who can you trust regards hard detail, eh?

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 4:44:26 AM|| 2004-04-05 4:44:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 I was wondering the same thing myself.
I seem to remember that the atrocity occurred at the far southwest entrance, though, so it would probably be the more southerly of the two bridges.

I have heard from my Iraqi friend in Baghdad this morning.

He reports that as of now (early afternoon there) the highways to the west, toward Jordan and Syria, have been closed because of the fighting.

He also reports that heavy smoke is visible in the direction of Fallujah from where he is, 36 miles away; that explosions are clearly audible ("like constant thunder") in the same direction, and that several really big explosions were actually visible a few minutes ago. Several B-52s and B-1s were overhead earlier but he doesn't know if these hit Fallujah. He hasn't seen any MLRS trails, but it is getting overcast there and the smoke is obscuring a lot.

He believes that at least 100 Sadr blackshirts were killed in the fighting yesterday and states definitely that M-1s used 120mm canister rounds against the jihadis ("a very distinct noise, like a boom and buzz together").

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-05 4:49:40 AM|| 2004-04-05 4:49:40 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 You know, it's going to drive me to tears (VERY small ones) if the population of 300,000 suffers 80% casualties killed, in the process of pacifying it. Hey - if that's what it takes, then so be it. If half are dead, and someone in there hurls a rock at a tank, then they are obviously not "pacified" - so let them have another full course. Let the process continue until either we run out of bullets, or they run out of troublemakers. 290 dead - or 290,000 - that's up to them.

By definition, no one who was against Saddam lived in Fullujah. This place was Baath-central.

Also, tell the extremists down in Najaf's Sadir City to send a couple of observers up - because they're next.

The troublemakers - numerous as they are - need to firmly understand that we can make more bullets faster than they can breed replacements.

When you operate to remove cancer, you have to go seriously at it - and - unfortunately - some good tissue has to be excised to make sure all the malignancy goes. So it is with cancerous extremism.

Posted by Lone Ranger 2004-04-05 4:50:34 AM|| 2004-04-05 4:50:34 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Well hell - the story is at the Belmont Club link I gave - I was thinking it was some other source. It's right there to read, guys.

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 4:58:02 AM|| 2004-04-05 4:58:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 By definition, no one who was against Saddam lived in Fallujah. This place was Baath-central.

More importantly, those people lived from Saddam. His regime provide them power and money. They have everything to lose from equal opportunities, rule of law and democracy. They will try everything to block this happenning and will never be our friends.

Posted by JFM 2004-04-05 5:03:24 AM|| 2004-04-05 5:03:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 It's time that Americans stop fooling them selves (and the world), first a weapons of mass destruction lie was ballooned that turned out to be a soap bubble. Secondly a new lie was aired (liberating Iraqis from Saddam), looks like the liberation of the Shia turned out a big flop too.

Looks like war hero BUSH is going to burn his fingers (heat of Iraqi oil) and kicked in the ass by Kerry next elections, serves good.

Posted by Murat 2004-04-05 7:19:48 AM|| 2004-04-05 7:19:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 "But local officials predicted that the latest U.S. action would continue the cycle of violence."

Oh, bullshit. "Cycles of violence" is what you get with rival street gangs in LA. This is a revolt, and the thing to do is crush it.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-04-05 7:21:47 AM|| 2004-04-05 7:21:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Murat, as much as you may sympathize with the displaced Sunni elite in Fallujah or the totalitarian fanatic Sadr, there is no reason at all to suppose that these creatures represent the "Iraqi people" as such or, therefore, that liberation has failed. On the contrary, their destruction in this showdown is a necessary step in the liberation process, at least as important as the removal of your friend Saddam Hussein.

That such persons as Saddam, the Fallujah ghouls, and Sadr represent "the people" is a standard line of the institutional media the world over and has been for over 40 years. It is an advertising hook, little more.
Arch-Hollywoodist Oliver Stone knows all about it, which is why he praised the 9-11 attacks.

You and your fellow murder apologists are little more than slaves of the real "evil Americans," the Hollywood/Madison Avenue Cultural Axis.

They are our domestic enemy, in every way possible; and they, like the foreign enemy they incite, must be dealt with eventually.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-05 7:31:00 AM|| 2004-04-05 7:31:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Wait a second Murat, you forgot to mention the Kurds! The Kurds are happy and thankful for THEIR liberation!
Crawl back into your hole Murat, it isn't time yet for you to come out.

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-05 7:41:45 AM|| 2004-04-05 7:41:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 Actually Sadr only represents a small amount of shiites. "Al-Sadr does not hold widespread support among Iraq's Shiites, many of whom see him as too young, radical and inexperienced to lead. But he does have the backing of hundreds of young seminary students and many impoverished Shiites" - this from a story this morning. So read religious nuts and people who've nothing to lose are easy prey for his propaganda. They will be crushed.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-05 7:43:12 AM|| 2004-04-05 7:43:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 They will be crushed.
Hear hear! Jarhead.
Looks like the zealous but inexperienced Sadr punks are too stupid to keep their heads down, an ideal debut for the 120mm beehive round.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2004-04-05 7:50:18 AM|| 2004-04-05 7:50:18 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 MSNBC is noting that Marines have entered Falluja

Posted by Frank G 2004-04-05 8:01:37 AM|| 2004-04-05 8:01:37 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 Oh those Liberals. Same old line and song. Nothing of susbtance as usual. Nope no intelligent life their. Too much liberal Franken radio perhaps with their deep perspective. Franken Radio summed up : Bush is a liar, we hate bush blah blah blah blah ad infinitum.

Posted by Bill Nelson 2004-04-05 8:02:30 AM|| 2004-04-05 8:02:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 Jarhead, al-Sadr also has the reported backing of Iran. Given the recent proclamations by Hizbollah leaders of solidarity with Hamas, and Sadr's declaration of solidarity with both networks, the link is pretty public now.

Sadr represents Iran's proxy war on the US as well as on a free, multi-party Iraq.

Murat, I suspect you are gloating a little too early. Bush isn't Clinton or Carter and the election may surprise you.

Posted by rkb 2004-04-05 8:05:12 AM|| 2004-04-05 8:05:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Thanks Murat: You went too far over the edge and showed your hand. I'll have a lot to write about at my blog. In the meantime, consider this (if you're capable of it): Why do we get the impression that your threshold for failure is a lot lower for America than anyone else? More to the point, why should we respect, heed, or listen to anyone who demonstrates that sort of bias?

Murat is a patriot, people. He loves his country and it shows. Nothing wrong in that. However, his patriotism makes him mean spirited in that he begrudges success to any other nation that may outshine his nation.

Iraq is next door to Turkey, has tons of oil, and has been invaded and occupied by the United States, which is now embarking on a long term program to reform and democratize it. Despite the lying slanders directed at the United States, its record of reforming and transforming nations in which it has made a long term investment is exemplary. THAT IS WHAT MURAT AND THE ISLAMISTS FEAR. They merely have different reasons for fearing and opposing our success: The islamists, because it will deny them a base of support and demonstrate the superiority of Western ideals over Middle Eastern ones, And Murat, because the New Iraq will outclass, outshine, and outdo Turkey.

Murat is a proud man. Normally, I'd be inclined to feel sorry for the oncoming blows to a man's patriotic pride in his country, but with Murat, I'm going to make an exception and just gloat when it happens.

Posted by Ptah 2004-04-05 8:52:02 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-04-05 8:52:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Atomic Conspiracy, Rafael and rkb do you guys also follow the news on sky news: http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13047235,00.html

Here you have some quotes: âIt is claimed that members of the ICDC, a paramilitary force trained by the Americans, turned on the US soldiers and started to shoot at them. The soldiers fled their vehicles and headed for cover and then began to battle both the Mehdi Army and the ICDC members.â

Newly trained Iraqi forces turn against you, its not only Sadr militia or some suni insurgents as you guys try to diminish, the mess is far bigger than you want to admit. So trying to comfort oneself with Kurds being happy is maybe the only resort left, for how long even that nobody knows. Make sure you guys donât end up flopping like Vietnam and Cuba, though you are fastly entering that phase.

Ptah you think I am Islamist? Wrong guess, I am patriotic true, true Kemalist patriot that is :)

Posted by Murat 2004-04-05 9:04:02 AM|| 2004-04-05 9:04:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 "Murat is a patriot, people. He loves his country and it shows."

His patriotism would mean a lot more if he weren't too stupid to figure out what's in his country's best interests.

If Murat were a smart man, he'd be praying frantically, day and night, that the U.S. succeeds in Iraq. Because if we don't, and are forced to the conclusion that the Islamic world is inherently incapable of being civilized, and someday there is another attack on U.S. soil, then the war which follows will not be a war of liberation or reformation: it will be a war of thermonuclear extermination.

And anyone who thinks we wouldn't do that is a fool.

Posted by Dave D. 2004-04-05 9:19:01 AM|| 2004-04-05 9:19:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#21 Hey, Murat, you have that information on my identity? I'm still waiting for it.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-05 9:49:25 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-04-05 9:49:25 AM|| Front Page Top

#22 Dave D,

Donât bother my friend, Murat is a smart man unlike those whitehouse boboâs who achieve again and again in creating armed groups who turn their weapons back shooting you in the foot, like Osama, Saddam and now ICDC members, good work I guess my prayers wont help there much!

Posted by Murat 2004-04-05 9:50:17 AM|| 2004-04-05 9:50:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#23 Kurdistan!

Posted by Frank G 2004-04-05 9:55:06 AM|| 2004-04-05 9:55:06 AM|| Front Page Top

#24 Murat is partly right. I think we recognized that the Sunni Baath country would be hostile but we didn't really expect the Shia crowd, newly liberated from Saddam, to show such ungratitude.

Dave D. is also partly right. Turkey would be a major beneficiary of a successful Iraq (economically and politically) and a major victim of a failed Iraq.

This is where Murat and other muslims seem to go nuts. They seem happy to see the US fail even though its in their own interest for the US to succeed (the Euro left is like this too to some extent). No wonder the muslim world has such corruption, such hatred, such evil.

Posted by mhw 2004-04-05 9:55:52 AM|| 2004-04-05 9:55:52 AM|| Front Page Top

#25 I think it's time for the US to support an independent Kurdistan and a restored Roman Empire centered on its last capital, Byzantium.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-05 9:56:29 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-04-05 9:56:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#26 I think Murat should put on a burka, have someone staple it to his forehead like they did in Iran, get rid of his computer and any other moderns conveniences his priviledged status affords, haul water by hand, and live as some backward Islamo's "bitch" for a month or two. It might help his perspective. Then again, he might like it.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-04-05 10:03:01 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:03:01 AM|| Front Page Top

#27 To Robert,

What is stopping you, big fart?

Posted by Murat 2004-04-05 10:10:49 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:10:49 AM|| Front Page Top

#28 You certainly couldn't, Murat.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2004-04-05 10:29:54 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com] 2004-04-05 10:29:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#29 Foxnews.com is reporting it now with the top headline.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-04-05 10:32:58 AM|| 2004-04-05 10:32:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#30 Robert,

Pffft don't make me laugh nert boy.

Posted by Murat 2004-04-05 11:03:20 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:03:20 AM|| Front Page Top

#31 dot com - the analysis in Wretchard was very interesting. Thank you for posting the link.

Posted by Liberalhawk 2004-04-05 11:05:17 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:05:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#32 rkb, that's good to go. Let all the roaches come out into the light. They should've waited until after January if skerry won, now they've strategically f*cked up and will pay for it. Sadr will disappear. If pacification does not happen then selective eradication will begin. Marine commanders will not stand for their bullshit. The shiites better chill the f*ck out for their own sake.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-05 11:12:09 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:12:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#33 'To err is human. To forgive is divine' Fortunately, NEITHER is Marine Corp policy!

Posted by Jack Deth 2004-04-05 11:31:50 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:31:50 AM|| Front Page Top

#34 I REALLY hope the Marines prove me wrong and lay the Ho-Johnie on them.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-04-05 11:33:58 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:33:58 AM|| Front Page Top

#35 Now, now, boys, it's not Murat's fault his government fell for the promises of union w/it's frog prince.

Turkey will never be more than the skullery maid of Europe.

However, Murat, even the skullery maid gets out once in awhile, there are other opportunities. Opportunity knocked once, it might knock again.

The question is, does Turkey have the guts to open the door and grab it?

Posted by Anonymous2U 2004-04-05 11:41:21 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:41:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#36 I should clarify things a little; I know Fallujah is our Tactical Area of Responsibility (TAOR), Sadr's area I believe is still Army property. Hence appaches vice cobras, soldiers getting shot at by ICDC. As soon as the Marines hear about the ICDC betrayal you can bet everyone of those icdc commanders in fallujah will get sweated by our brass. Every senior enlisted Marine will have a 9 mil to their iraqi counterpart's head as a warning.

Posted by Jarhead 2004-04-05 11:47:19 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:47:19 AM|| Front Page Top

#37 All your Fallujah are belong to us.

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-04-05 11:51:32 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:51:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#38 I wasn't clever enough to think of this - stole it off Fark - but its still funny!

Fallujah April 10, 2004

Posted by Yosemite Sam 2004-04-05 11:56:59 AM|| 2004-04-05 11:56:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#39 I you need a good laugh - FoxNews is using the SAME GlobalSecurity.org map we are in describing Fallujah actions and locations.

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 12:15:07 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:15:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Has John Pike been on air yet?

Posted by Shipman 2004-04-05 12:52:40 PM|| 2004-04-05 12:52:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Not yet, Ship - and I look forward to his gigs, too - a definite non-idiotarian.

Posted by .com 2004-04-05 1:01:26 PM|| 2004-04-05 1:01:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 via Murat: "It is claimed that members of the ICDC, a paramilitary force trained by the Americans, turned on the US soldiers and started to shoot at them."

This reminds me of a scene in Blackhawk Down:
Ranger: "Sarge, they're shooting at us!!"
Sargeant: "Well...shoot back!!"

I don't see your point Murat. Every Iraqi has a choice to make: either let the coalition reconstruct the country, or pick up a gun and be an obstructionist. If they choose the latter, they will get smoked. Either way, Iraq needs a police force and they need an army. According to you, Iraq should be left to anarchy.

Posted by Rafael 2004-04-05 3:47:52 PM|| 2004-04-05 3:47:52 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Murat, as a Turkish patriot consider this fact. The US fallback position will be to secure Kurdistan. A stable, prosperous Kurdistan with US backing will be able to (a) really cause irritation to Turkey, Syria, Iran, Iraqi Sunni's and Iraqi Shia all of whom the US will want to see irritated if Iraq falls apart (b) Kurds are the toughest bastards in the region dating back to Saldin and with proper backing could possible take over and occupy much of their neighborhood (c) Kurdistan would have oil revenue as well.

On the other hand a stable, prosperous, peaceful Iraq means that Iraq might serve as a magnet for Kurds in Turkey to emigrate to. It means Turkey could have a long secure Southern border and possible oil pipelines. It means Islamists in Turkey will probably lose influence as Democracy and Islam are further proved to be compatible.

It is not in Turkeys best interests to see an Independent Kurdistan and yet you are wishing for it to happen. That is stupid, or insane. Get over your America hatred, and your Bush hatred, and think the thing through all the way.

Posted by ruprecht 2004-04-05 5:56:20 PM|| 2004-04-05 5:56:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 ruprecht,

I shall be short on your analysis, you are dreaming, you don't know much about the region else than what you see on CNN. You know that much that you are allowed to know or made believe.

Posted by Murat 2004-04-06 2:54:28 AM|| 2004-04-06 2:54:28 AM|| Front Page Top

#45 Murat, what do Turkish nationalists want to see come out of this struggle? Do you want to see:

a) a fundi regime
b) a contitutional democracy
c) a return of the Baathists
d) whatever it takes to keep the Kurds in line and the oil flowing
e) total chaos as long as there are lots of dead Americans?
f) a terrorist friendly regime that will allow spodydopes across the Turkish border in a manner simular to Syria and Iran
g) a timewarp back to last year
h) a fairy tale solution brought to you by Glynda the good Witch of the South
i) a random solution generated by the lucky eight ball

Posted by Super Hose 2004-04-06 3:17:56 AM|| 2004-04-06 3:17:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#46 Don't be too rough on Murat. He thinks that al Jazeera is a reliable source of news.

Posted by Pete Stanley 2004-04-06 3:48:07 AM|| 2004-04-06 3:48:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#47 PS, I'm not trying to bait Murat. I leave that to others. He plays with the boyz and fun is had by all, but he has always answered my questions thoughtfully. Understanding the Turkish point of view is critical to the overall sucess of eliminating terrorists. Last night, JFM and an Anon offered some excellent insight into the Spainish and Portugese outlooks.

Posted by Super Hose 2004-04-06 4:55:30 AM|| 2004-04-06 4:55:30 AM|| Front Page Top

23:57 Zenster
23:57 Zenster
23:54 Zenster
23:54 Zenster
23:30 Zenster
23:30 Zenster
01:24 Frank
01:24 Frank
01:22 James TROLL
01:11 Baker TROLL
09:08 rkb
04:55 Super Hose
03:48 Pete Stanley
03:17 Super Hose
02:54 Murat
01:15 .com
01:06 .com
00:52 Alaska Paul on the Road
00:39 cingold
00:24 WhiteHouseDetox
00:18 ex-lib
00:17 Zenster
00:13 phil_b
00:04 Alaska Paul on the Road