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2005-02-24 Caribbean-Latin America

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Posted by Fred 2005-02-24 00:00:00 AM|| || Front Page|| [11135 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Interesting. Almost tracks precisely with the Spanish version in the BBC. Who's copying who?

Posted by 11A5S 2005-02-24 12:31:35 AM|| 2005-02-24 12:31:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 It probably came from a press release from the Venezuelan government.

Posted by Robert Crawford 2005-02-24 8:05:16 AM|| [http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-02-24 8:05:16 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "...he has won a clear mandate from his electorate..."

Thank you, Jimmy Carter, for going along with the fraud.

Posted by Jackal 2005-02-24 8:22:30 AM|| [http://home.earthlink.net/~sleepyjackal/index.html] 2005-02-24 8:22:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 his friendship of Cuban President Fidel Castro
Not only is he buddies with Fido, he's using Fido's playbook: when in trouble, say the US is planning to invade. Must be a good strategy, Cuba's held off the US for over forty years;-)

Posted by Spot 2005-02-24 8:25:44 AM|| 2005-02-24 8:25:44 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 11A5S,

In Saudi, among Westerners of course, the BBC is known as Al-Jazeera for Infidels.

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 8:27:12 AM|| 2005-02-24 8:27:12 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 Spot,

No only when in trouble. They (Chavez and Fidel) also invoke the "defense of sovereignty" excuse when they want to further their control over the citizenry.
Remember the 100,000 AK 47 assault rifles from Russia? He had to find an excuse to supply his supporters with them and what better than a supposed threat by every dictator's favorite escape goat: the US!
Military trains students to use rifles; study guerilla tactics in the case of an external threat to Venezuelan national sovereignty.
http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=25845

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 8:36:47 AM|| 2005-02-24 8:36:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 As Castro before him, Chavez is following the consolidate power step in Lenin's classic disinformation campaign for usurping power: exaggerate your own weakness and the strength of the "enemy elements" and you are justified in circling the wagons, arming your supporters, and (absurdly) draping the flag across your shoulders as the Great Defender of (imaginary) Freedom.

It's very effective when used against those who do not naturally think for themselves - and the wet dream of the fascist / socialist ivory tower intelligentsia and press who hope to feed them soma.

Posted by .com 2005-02-24 9:20:35 AM|| 2005-02-24 9:20:35 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Chavez is ofcourse a vicious dictator wannabe, but if the Rantburgian rhetoric (about the desirability of killing him, bombing him, assasinating him, deposing him in a coup ala Allende, etc etc) -- if such rhetoric is widespread in American conservative circles, then I'd say you are giving him exactly all the ammo he needs. Congrats.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-02-24 10:10:03 AM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-02-24 10:10:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Lol! Gosh, another straw-man exercise. Isn't there a straw shortage on? Perhaps a straw "gap" looming?

1) Toss in a valid statement, i.e. "vicious dictator wannabe" (though I'd venture the "wannabe" is no longer necessary), to establish bona-fides.

2) Paint all/most/many in little RB with the same brush to exaggerate an observation - the only hat tip to truth is using the word "rhetoric".

3) Wildly extrapolate across millions of people - covered by a single mere "if".

4) Thus is constructed an absurd fictitious question...

5) Which the author cum fantasist triumphantly answers!

*golf clap*

Tres Lenin.

Posted by .com 2005-02-24 10:37:02 AM|| 2005-02-24 10:37:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 --Cuba's held off the US for over forty years;-)---

Because JKF gave in to Kruschev. It's part of the written agreement, IIRC, but there are those here who will know more.

Posted by anonymous2u 2005-02-24 11:59:11 AM|| 2005-02-24 11:59:11 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Well, if you want me to be less painting-everyone-with-the-same-brush, here you go:

Whenever *individuals*, especially ones considering themselves supporters of the ideology currently in charge of the White House, talk about violently overthrowing a person who *still* has the popular mandate of his people, (even if such result was the product of his demagoguery), then they become themselves perfectly convenient specimens of such American imperialism of the support-the-Contras-and-overthrow-Allende variety that demagoguical tyrant-wannabes such as Chavez and his kin all over the world can use to their supreme advantage.

There you go: No painting everyone with all the same brush necessary, no need to refer to past or current Rantburg threads. Just telling you how convenient the imperialist rhetoric becomes for all third-world dictators trying to consolidate their power through claims of external threats.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-02-24 12:05:15 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-02-24 12:05:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 Aris, most people in the US are content to allow Latin America to ruin itself. They are not a serious threat, they are all grown ups and can read a history book and see the failures of communism and successes of capitalism and democracy.

Chavez says this crap because he knows he has nothing to fear from the US unless he attacks us.

Posted by rjschwarz 2005-02-24 12:08:15 PM|| [http://rjschwarz] 2005-02-24 12:08:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Aris,
So, you suggest that the US overthrows him but that it should do it quitely, right?

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 12:10:44 PM|| 2005-02-24 12:10:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 TMH> He still has a democratic mandate AFAIK. Quiet or no, "overthrowing him" would not be a restoration of democracy, it would be the abolition thereof.

What I'm suggesting that you do the most you can to encourage democratic forces in Venezuela. Same as happened in Ukraine.

Eventually he'll either be removed from power by the Venezuelan people themselves, or will go full-dictatorial on Venezuela's ass, at which point you'd have every right to overthrow him by any means necessary to restore democracy.

But not before he *does* become a dictator. Or you'll just provide ammo for the next Chavez to come along, same as the Contras and Allende affair did.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-02-24 12:19:04 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-02-24 12:19:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 Quick, someone post a EU thread!

Aris, you know even less about Latin America than you do about the United States.

It's always been a big crowd pleaser in Latin America to scream that the Yanqui imperialists are coming to get you. It takes away attention from how you are screwing up at home and flushing your country down the toilet.

He can scream, yell, and throw a temper tantrum, but quite frankly he is not the biggest problem we have south of the border. And he knows it. He gets to talk tough, act like a badass and keep up his street cred knowing that it is highly unlikely that we're going to do a damn thing unless he does something almost criminally stupid. He's crazy, but I don't think Chavez is stupid.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-24 12:46:22 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-02-24 12:46:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 He will never become your typical dictator. He is smarter than that. He is doing it through a process he calls "participative democracy." Here is a little excerpt of how he has been consolidating power under the veil of "democracy":
"Hugo Chavez was elected president of Venezuela in December of 1998. Almost immediately, he took his first steps towards consolidating all of the power of the Venezuelan state into his own hands. He organized a series of referenda. The first authorized re-writing the Venezuelan constitution. The second selected delegates to a Constitutional Assembly, distinct from his country's legislature, to do the re-writing. The rules governing the election of the Constitutional Assembly featured a few non-standard items. Although no candidates -- neither Chavez's supporters nor his opposition -- were allowed to run under party banners, Chavez used state funded media to campaign for the election of his supporters. This, combined with Chavez's personal popularity, allowed Chavez supporters to win 120 of the 131 assembly seats.
The Constitutional Assembly, with the backing of Chavez, moved beyond re-writing Venezuela's Constitution. In August of 1999, the assembly set up a "judicial emergency committee" with the power to remove judges without consulting any other branch of government. The New York Times quoted the judicial emergency committee chairman as saying, "The Constitutional Assembly has absolute powers. The objective is that the substitution of judges will take place peacefully, but if the courts refuse to acknowledge the assembly's authority, we will proceed in a different fashion."
In the same month, the assembly declared a "legislative emergency." A seven-member committee was created to perform congressional functions, including law-making. The Constitutional Assembly prohibited the Congress from holding meetings of any sort. In a national radio address quoted in the Times, Chavez warned Venezuelans not to obey opposition officials, stating that "we can intervene in any police force in any municipality, because we are not going to permit any tumult or uproar. Order has arrived in Venezuela."
The new constitution -- increasing the President's term of office by one year, increasing the power of the president in general, and placing new government restrictions on the media, among other things -- was approved in a referendum held in December of 1999. Elections for the new, unicameral legislature were held in July of 2000. During the same election, Chavez stood for election again -- restarting the clock on his Presidential term of office. Though Chavez supporters won about 60% of the seats in the new unicameral assembly, Chavez still did not feel that he had enough power. In November of 2000, he pushed a bill through the legislature allowing him to rule by decree for one year.
In December of 2000 there was another set of elections. During elections for local officials, Chavez added a referendum on dissolving Venezuela's labor unions. Though it is unclear what authority was invoked, he attempted to consolidate all Venezuelan labor unions into a single, state controlled "Bolivaran Labor Force."
It is very easy for someone who is not leaving there to say lets encourage democratic forces, for whatever long it takes. Unfortunely, my entire family is living there and facing a very obscure future.

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 12:53:40 PM|| 2005-02-24 12:53:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 rjschwar,
Do you share the same opinion of not caring about what happens to people in Latin America?

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 12:56:04 PM|| 2005-02-24 12:56:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Most of Latin America, like most of Africa and the Middle East, has been shooting itself in the foot ever since the end of colonialism. They are entitled to be foolish without my blessing and without my financial support.

I for one have absolutely no desire to have my country attack Venezuela as long as Venezuela respects our security (i.e., keeps the oil pumping continuously at fair prices, does not promote the illegal drug business, and does not become a base for hostile foreign powers).

That said, and the arrogant Greek's strawmen and asterisks aside, Chavez seems intent on pressing his luck. Eventually his arrogance will cost him dearly either at the hands of his own people or otherwise. Venezuela is not an island selling sugar and cigars; it is a large country with porous borders, troubled neighbors, and an economy that's very much about selling oil to the U.S.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-24 1:03:24 PM|| 2005-02-24 1:03:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 Tom,

I take that you were opposed to the US attacking Iraq since Iraq never directly attacked the US, right?

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 1:12:14 PM|| 2005-02-24 1:12:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 It's always been a big crowd pleaser in Latin America to scream that the Yanqui imperialists are coming to get you.

And the reasons that's been a big crowd pleaser and believable is probably because for decades upon decades, the "Yanqui imperialists" were indeed coming to get them. All I'm saying is, if you want such rhetoric to *ever* end, don't give them further justification for it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-02-24 1:22:14 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-02-24 1:22:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Never said we weren't guilty of that, Aris.

The fact is, whether we were actually going to do something or not, it has always been precisely what I said it was....a way to look like a badass and deflect attention away from how you are screwing things up.

TMH- Sorry that your family is having to deal with this idjit, but...Iraq has absolutamente nada to do with this. Y usted lo sabe.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-24 1:29:37 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-02-24 1:29:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 TMH, I don't know where you get the "never directly attacked" crap. My words were "respects our security".

Iraq did not respect our security. Iraq invaded Kuwait, risking the stability of our oil supply. Then Iraq failed to respect the no-fly zones. And then Iraq blamed us for their "oil-for-food" failures and threatened us with missle development and WMD programs. [Real or imagined, I don't care. They gased Iranians and Kurds for sure and they had nuclear and other WMD programs even if they weren't very advanced.]

If it were up to me, Saddam would have been swinging from a noose a long, long time ago.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-24 1:32:51 PM|| 2005-02-24 1:32:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I do care about what happens to the people of Latin America. I'm stating the reality, the big Imperialist America is not actually an imperialist and is very unlikely to get involved in Venezuela unless we are attacked. We don't wage wars for oil despite what fools, idiots and dolts are constantly droning on about.

The middle east is an area with no history of democracy and along history of international terrorism. Latin America has a recent history of democracy and no history of international terrorism so comparisons don't work.

Fact is US involvement often works backwards in Latin America because it's so easy for the masses to believe the worst from the Yankees. What we need is for the OAS to stand up for Venezuela's people. We need the pressure to come from other Latin American nations, other third world nations, and the UN.

Posted by rjschwarz 2005-02-24 1:33:00 PM|| [http://rjschwarz] 2005-02-24 1:33:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 TMH, Iraq had invaded another country, been under UN sanctions that it flauted for a decade, was a threat to regional stability, had used chemical weapons on its own people and had attempted to develop nuclear weapons. That's a long way from what Chavez has done.

The U. S. and Argentina survived Peron, the U. S. and Cuba have survived Castro. There were a lot of individuals in Argentina and Cuba for whom this meant misery and death. But the U. S. cannot and should try to right every wrong in the world. The Venezuelan people have known some form of democracy in the past. In that, they are ahead of where the Ukranians were a few months ago. If the Venezuelan people think they have lost their democracy, they have an example of how to get it back.

If you think the Venezuelans have lost their love of freedom or are just being conned by Chavez, I hope you get the chance to get out before things get too bad. But until we have a litany of wrongs and dangers like we did for Saddam, the U. S. isn't going to do much to change things if the Venezuelan people don't want to do much.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-24 1:33:07 PM|| 2005-02-24 1:33:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 aris....STFU.

Posted by Tom Dooley 2005-02-24 1:59:57 PM|| 2005-02-24 1:59:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 I am not advocating US military intervention. I am responding to comments like: "Most of Latin America, like most of Africa and the Middle East, has been shooting itself in the foot ever since the end of colonialism. They are entitled to be foolish without my blessing and without my financial support."
That comment sounded a lot like we deserve it and I thought it was a bit hypocritical with all the talk of spreading and preserving democracy coming from this country nowadays. My apologies!
I do understand that Chavez is not Saddam and as far as the public knows, he has not threatened the security of this country.
A word of caution though.... You have not seen Chavez government "direct" involvement with Islamic terrorists but I suggest that you play close attention to the Muslim population there (the ones who danced on the street on Margarita Island on Sept 11). We just "elected" our first Hamas supporter Muslim governor (Anzoategui State) who by the way has been denied a visa to the States for his ties to the latter group.

rjschwarz,
OAS is as useless as the UN and the other third world countries are either being bribed with offers of discounted oil or share Chavez's visceral hatred for this country.
I understand the need to democratize the ME, believe me I lived 8 years in that part of the world but why would you let democracy die right at your backdoor?

Desert Blondie: Creo que la habladuria de Chavez va mas alla de desviar la atencion del pueblo. Este es un hombre que desde sus principios ha manisfestado un odio tan intenso como el que sentia Che por este pais. Creo que los EEUU subestima a este payaso.

Mrs. Davis,
I am not presently residing in Venezuela. And maybe you are right. It has to come from the Venezuelan people. How? We are open for suggestions.

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 2:46:15 PM|| 2005-02-24 2:46:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 TMH, glad to hear you're not there. Have you started a Spanish language blog for Venezuelans to recount their stories and consider they are not alone in their desire to restor democracy? That would be a great place for Venezuelans to figure out what to do.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-24 2:52:48 PM|| 2005-02-24 2:52:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Latin America hasn't been shooting itself in the foot since the end of colonialism; instead it is suffering from the stupidity of the Spanish Habsurgs, Bourbons, and "hijos de algo" ("Sons of Something") who, like the second sons with "great honor and little property" in the English and French colonies, created the plantation economy and brought serfdom (peonage) to the New World. Corruption, repression, and ignorance are endemic to many parts of Latin America. The landowners in some places, especially in Bolivia, still haven't gotten it through their thick heads that feudalism died centuries ago.

Try reading local newspapers from the "prensa nacional" section of Yahoo news for a Latin American country, if you can read Spanish. Local news is still dominated by the cacique family. You have to have the right last name to get anywhere.

Throughout Latin America, urban caciques are as poisonous as the rural ones. The caciques skim outrageous sums from humanitarian projects, send anyone who wants to build a house or start a business through dozens of permits and years of paperwork, strangling hopes for good jobs, medical care, education, and everything else we in the US take for granted. Ignorance plus poverty plus corruption plus hopelessness equals golden opportunity for the Chavezes and Castros of the world.

It also opens up opportunities for islamofascism. Someone recently pointed this out in a comment on islamists getting a foothold in Mexico.

TMH, you have our prayers. We have a friend in Colombia trying to keep his business running despite corruption in his city and gangsters in the countryside. Question: How can outsiders, such as the rest of us at RB, help?

Posted by mom 2005-02-24 3:30:45 PM|| 2005-02-24 3:30:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 "...why would you let democracy die right at your backdoor?"
No, why are you and your family allowing democracy to die right at your backdoor, TMH? Why does your democracy not focus more on education and building a middle class? Why are you spending your time in the Middle East and the U.S. and expecting my tax dollars and the blood of my sons and daughter to go save your homeland?

Latin America, like most of Africa and the Middle East, is wallowing in victimhood instead of solving its own problems. And Venezuela, rich in oil, is behaving no better than a Middle Eastern tyranny. The only difference is the blaming-the-Yankee-Imperialist crap instead of the blaming-the-Jooos crap. The affluent want it both ways, be they in Saudi Arabia or in Venezuela: they do little to share the wealth in their country and then they want to use my resources to save them when their affluence is threatened.

There is nothing hypocritical in holding people accountable for what goes on in their own countries. Who should be most accountable, especially in democracies? The U.S. has spent a fortune in money and U.S. blood to rescue people from their dictators, and the world is starting to think of it as an entitlement program.

My family has paid to liberate western Europe, the Pacific, Korea, Kuwait, Afghanistan, and Iraq. In some cases in blood. What have you and your family sacrificed for democracy in your homeland, TMH?

Posted by Tom 2005-02-24 3:35:13 PM|| 2005-02-24 3:35:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Well said Tom. A Democracy earned has a significantly higher chance of success than a Democracy bestowed.

Posted by rjschwarz 2005-02-24 3:41:46 PM|| [http://rjschwarz] 2005-02-24 3:41:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 How? We are open for suggestions.

Well the middle class revolt (Cruzada Civica) against Noriega was an abysmal failure. When Noriega started shooting at the civilly disobedient, the whole thing folded. Plus Noriega was able to label the middle class leaders of the revolt (mostly Rotarians and other service club members) as rabiblancos (white asses) and effectively associated them with the criollo uperclasses in the mob's mind. Finally, Noriega was able to buy the loyalty of most civil servants through free gas, groceries, etc. And in most countries (US included) government workers represent a considerable fraction of wage earners.

Coups failed as well. They just didn't get any popular support and were poorly organized as well.

I see Chavez as having more in common with facists than communists. Or maybe Noriega, Mk II. He's certainly using the same tactics. To the best of my knowledge, facist regimes have only died of two causes: killed by outsiders (Italy, Germany, Panama) or death from old age (Spain).

I still think that the best tool we had for preventing freaks like Chavez was the School of the Americas. We taught almost two generations of Latin American officers that coup-making wasn't the best use of their time. Unfortunately, the hard left caused it to be shut down. I used to think that the lefty's, while wrong, were at least being true to their principals, but thanks to blogs, I know realize that they were just trying to help out their heroes like Chavez.

TMH: Keep posting. Argument is good. We all need to learn more about this.

mom: I went looking for the Prensa Nacional link and still haven't been able to find it on Yahoo. This is what I've been using. BTW, I agree with every word you say. In Panama, many of the "names" were right off the manifest of Pizarro's men from 450 years in the past! Have you ever read the Peruvian economist Hernando de Soto?

Posted by 11A5S 2005-02-24 4:05:14 PM|| 2005-02-24 4:05:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 I think you made the point right there. "When Noriega started shooting at the civilly disobedient, the whole thing folded."

When the British started shooting at the Colonists the Americans shot back. If you simply wait around for others to take the risks it means you don't really care one way or the other. It means it will never happen. If you ever hear someone ask why the US is so gun crazy that we put it in our Consitution this is why. We don't like to be pushed around.

Posted by rjschwarz 2005-02-24 4:09:21 PM|| [http://rjschwarz] 2005-02-24 4:09:21 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 Tom,
Where do you get the idea that I am blaming the US for our problems? I am the first one to criticize any signs of victimhood as I have done it several times on this site.
I do not expect you or any other American (including my husband of 24 years and our son) to give their tax dollars and lives for any other country.
I am sad to read that you think that my only interest in saving Venezuela's democracy is because my "wealth" has been threatened. You could not be further from the truth.

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 4:11:18 PM|| 2005-02-24 4:11:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 The big night was when the power and water workers walked out. All of Panama City was dark. People were literally manning barricades. Then the Cruzada Civica leaders, from all accounts, got a case of the vapors and ordered everyone to go home because someone might get hurt.

I've never seen TMH claim to be a victim. I think that she's just asking for insight. As mom points out, there is no tradition of freedom in any of these countries. The middle class is weak and under capitalized (i.e. no power). There are _no_ small freeholders to take up arms in the countryside like in the American revolution. The landowners are as reactionary as the ones in Pakistan. Personally, I think the only two solutions are what I outlined previously: invade or let it die (of which the latter is what we're doing with Castro). There are some preventatives like the School of the Americas, but we've given up some of these. I just don't want to see us ignore this and then have it blow up on us ten years later like OBL and Noriega,

Posted by 11A5S 2005-02-24 4:24:36 PM|| 2005-02-24 4:24:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 New World of the Gothic Fox explains why thing in Latin Ameica are the way they are and may be changing. But I'm not optimistic.

Posted by Monica Lewinski 2005-02-24 4:35:38 PM|| 2005-02-24 4:35:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 TMH, I did not say that your wealth was threatened. I just compared the wealthy of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela -- neither doing much to develop a middle class.

As for your comment:
"I do not expect you or any other American... to give their tax dollars and lives for any other country."
How does that square with your comment:
"...why would you let democracy die right at your backdoor?"
What do you want of us?

Posted by Tom 2005-02-24 4:44:09 PM|| 2005-02-24 4:44:09 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 Have a Carrier Air Wing make a practice run right at Venezuela some night and lets' see how much Hugo shits himself.

Posted by tu3031 2005-02-24 4:45:57 PM|| 2005-02-24 4:45:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 Tom,
"What do you want of us?
That is exactly why this is being discussed here. We need to find a solution that will benefit both countries. I know that you do not believe that Venezuela represents a threat to the US but if Venezuela becomes a totalitarian State, you will have a country that will harbor and support terrorism 2 hours and 58 minutes from your door steps.
Please do not think I am justifying the way our society has developed but it does have a lot to do on how the country was settled and by whom. The Spanish did not go there to build a new country like the English did here. They went there to pillage and plunder and left a legacy of corruption and nepotism that has hindered the development of the country. We need to break that cycle and we need help doing this.

Posted by TMH 2005-02-24 5:09:14 PM|| 2005-02-24 5:09:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 TMH - I'm going to continue this in English for the rest of RB who may not speak Spanish.

Yes, he's full of hate, and maybe we are underestimating him by treating him like some kind of clown. But there remains the crucial problem....what do the Venezuelans want to do about it?

Look, we aren't going to do either country any good by coming down there with the 82nd Airborne (assuming they were free to do the job, which right now, they're not) if the Venezuelans don't or won't stand up to the guy. Basically, it is up to the Venezuelans to determine when they have had enough and how they are going to deal with this idiot.

The history of the US & Latin America hasn't been a good one. I don't care if all of heaven's angels preceeded us down the streets of Caracas, singing hallelujahs in our direction, the fact remains that anything supported by the US is suspect to many, if not most, of the people in Latin America. We can't be too obvious, because that is more likely to hurt than to help.

It is not a hopeless situation, but there's only so much that America can do. Chavez knows that. He's arming his goons not because of anything America might do, but because of anything his own people might do.

Posted by Desert Blondie 2005-02-24 5:47:12 PM|| [http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com] 2005-02-24 5:47:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 Article: Larry Birns of the Washington-based think-tank, the Council on Hemisphere Affairs, said Venezuelan worries over a possible attempt on Chavez should not be dismissed as paranoia. "Chavez's rhetoric can be disregarded as bark without bite but when the Bush administration is barking so much you can understand the Venezuelans would be concerned it may actually be ready to bite," Birns said.

The Council for Hemisphere Affairs is a left-wing think tank that blames Uncle Sam for anything bad that Latin American governments do. The quasi-religious belief prevalent at this organization is that Uncle Sam only has to crook his finger, and Latin American countries will comply with administration wishes on human rights. In other words, the Great White Father only has to say the word, and our Hispanic neighbors to the south will tremblingly obey. What. A. Crock. Of. Shit. It also opposes administration attempts to punish Latin American governments for acting against American interests.

Posted by Zhang Fei 2005-02-24 6:20:05 PM|| [http://timurileng.blogspot.com] 2005-02-24 6:20:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 Speaking of south of the border nations I have never quite understood what this institution implies:
US - Cuba Cooperative Security
It is part of the CDI.

Posted by 3dc 2005-02-24 6:50:51 PM|| 2005-02-24 6:50:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Not sure I'm buying the Spanish plantation legacy excuse (#28) or the Spanish pillage and plunder excuse (#38). The U.S. had plantations too and Bolivar liberated Venezuela from the Spanish in 1821. Call me not politically correct, but I think it's a cultural problem.

Posted by Tom 2005-02-24 8:15:12 PM|| 2005-02-24 8:15:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 #35 is the cultural excuse.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-24 8:26:10 PM|| 2005-02-24 8:26:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Book report:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n18_v46/ai_15844242

Posted by Tom 2005-02-24 8:45:51 PM|| 2005-02-24 8:45:51 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 What I found intriguing and unmentioned in the review is that the precedent for the centralizing tendency found in Spanish culture was the need for unity in expelling the Moors from Spain.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-02-24 9:06:03 PM|| 2005-02-24 9:06:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 I believe Mr. Chavez needs to be removed rather than rattled. Before he has a chance to sabotage his oil industry as a last-gasp tactic

Posted by Frank G 2005-02-24 9:08:45 PM|| 2005-02-24 9:08:45 PM|| Front Page Top

23:54 spiffo
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