Article

2006-01-09 Iraq

Zarqawi demands Sunnis shun politics for jihad

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Posted by Dan Darling 2006-01-09 03:11|| || Front Page|| [11134 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 See today's LA Times for Prof Aaron Belkin's prediction that strongman rule will be the result of Bush's quixotic $300 billion, democraticization scam. What part of the Muslimutt' sovereignty-belongs-to-allah dogma can you lego-nation-builders not understand? The West has a choice: total war on Islam now, or later. There is no workable compromise. We might as well be exporting sand to the Arabian Desert.

Says Belkin on :

...Niall Ferguson notes in his book "Colossus," the formal American occupations of Japan and West Germany lasted seven and 10 years, respectively, and it took nearly 40 years of American military presence in South Korea to nurture a genuine stable democracy there. The commitment of treasure and troops was massive.

And critically, in each of those cases, democratization achieved traction only after the cessation of violence, of which there is no end in sight in Iraq. Under warlike conditions, the country's social infrastructure can't develop â insurgency and counterinsurgency aren't the building blocks of civil society...

Let's talk nation-destruction, not building. It is time to put away the smart-bombs and dust off the nukes. Americans need to examine the national suicide mentality that followed 9-11. That event was a signal for wholesale slaughter. And the enemy that deserves it, has never been stronger.

Posted by CaziFarkus">CaziFarkus 2006-01-09 05:45|| deleted]">[deleted] 2006-01-09 05:45|| Front Page Top

#2 Nukes?

Really?

Lay out your Master Planâ¢. Who, Where, When.

Love to hear it.

Others here at RB have put forth rational and realistic plans, though PC-unacceptable at present, in less bandwidth than you consume with spew.

Lay it out. Be specific. Be focused. Be intelligent. Be rational. Be useful. Be constructive.

If all you come here for is therapy, you should be banned. This post qualifies you, IMHO, as yet another irrational Hater Without A Clueâ¢. Prove me wrong - and not by quoting Prof Ding Dong. BTW, just provide a fucking link, I'll look it up - if the rest of your comment warrants and commends it.

So let's hear it. Clean. Concise. Comprehensive. Within reality.

Or go stew in your bile elsewhere.

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 06:31|| 2006-01-09 06:31|| Front Page Top

#3 .com, officially, props for laying it out. That alone is why I laugh at some of the more outlandish commentators here, and see that you get it.

Posted by Edward Yee 2006-01-09 06:48|| http://edwardyee.fanworks.net]">[http://edwardyee.fanworks.net] 2006-01-09 06:48|| Front Page Top

#4 Zarq boy still tring to forment a Civil War and faild nation that AQ can run rampant in next to SA. Iran has it's hands in the same pot so it can attempt to dominate the region. Lots of crap being flung.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2006-01-09 07:01|| 2006-01-09 07:01|| Front Page Top

#5 This would be the polysci professor Aaron Belkin who heads up the Center for Sexual Minorities in the Military, a think tank at the University of California at Santa Barbara, a man with Opinions. Such a clever man, who hasn't noticed that we still have occupying forces based in Japan and Germany. Were that not so, both countries would have succumbed to the Stalinist madness of 1968 and the years that followed.

.com, you pegged them both -- the good professor and CaziFarkus who quoted him. CF is clearly of the ilk which believe anything in print, having once chosen which newspaper's editors to do his thinking for him. Much like some people approch religion -- with unthinking, as opposed to thoughtful, faith.

Posted by trailing wife 2006-01-09 07:46|| 2006-01-09 07:46|| Front Page Top

#6 CF understanding takes time. No way a rational approach to Islam can be implemented before there are 6 figure Western casualties.

Posted by gromgoru 2006-01-09 07:48|| 2006-01-09 07:48|| Front Page Top

#7 My position: if it won't work, don't try it. Bremer's new book is, apparently, field testimony against nation building without effective terror suppression. The Bushies believed Bernard Lewis' crap on Arab acquiesence to benign occupation.

Where to nuke (including use of nuclear blackmail)? Tora bora. Southern Saudi Arabia, where most of the 9-11 terrorists were rooted. Or anywhere where al-Qaeda elements - Islamic Jihad, Ikhwan Musulum, Jamaat-i-Islami, etc - had or have a stronghold, from which terror attacks are mounted. I would have used aid leverage to force the government of Egypt to liquidate (execute) the entire 19,000 Ikhwanis that they held in prisons on 9-11. A 500 mile jihadi - meaning Islamic Jihad, al-Fatah, Hizbollah, Hamas, etc - free zone would have been recognized and enforced around Israel. Ethnic cleansing of Manila's 800,000 Muslims would have been encouraged, and the terror infestations of Central and Southeast Asia, rendered. Threats of sanctions would have squelched Sharia adoption in Kosovo and Bosnia. Russia would have been given a free hand in Chechnya; and China with the Uighars.

All adherents of the Wahabi ideology should have been declared enemy combatants (the 85% of US mosques that were built by the Saudis would have been closed, and foreign born members deported en masse).

Given that Islam is primarily an Arabist enterprise, the deserved debasement of Arabs would have led to mass abandonment of the terror cult. Pakistan would have broken up by 2003. Punjabis would have turned against Jamaat-i-Islami. Most of the Maghreb would be Berber states. I would believe that a controlled cull of terrorists, on a global scale, would have resulted in about 3 million dead, with the bulk of the slaughter being carried out by other nationals.

Iran would have imploded by 2002. United Western troops - most forget that Bush invoked Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty after 9-11 - would effectively occupy the entire Middle East oil fields, which would not be subject to terror (Iraq oil production has been cut in half since the April liberation, because of worthless limited war means used against economic terrorists).

For the first time in history, the Americas, Central and Southern Africa, China, India, Russia, Europe would be somewhat united against the common enemy. As it is, the Bushies have written off China and Russia, as insufficiently deferential to the Saudi masters. Iran has unearned leverage over all the major oil users. Nuclear proliferation is escalating, with Bush reduced to mumbling solemn platitudes, which reveal his regime's unwillingness to project real power.

I took pictures of Brooklyn, from the WTC in 1990. If those who embrace the ideology that induced the slaughter of 3,000 persons on Sept. 11, 2001, are not allowed to be declared enemy combatants, then those who indulge that enemy are aiding and abetting terror. Pseudo-democratic nation building that facilitates the inevitable formation of Islamofascist tyrannies in Afghan and Iraq, is a poison pill. The West will either fight the mortal Muslim enemy now, or later. The enemy is not afraid to kill; we shouldn't be afraid to kill disproportionately, while we can.

I don't want Islamofascists to vote; I want them to die. I doubt that Fred or Dan Darling share the inclusivist - viz Bush's let them vote (once) - policies toward the enemy. I sense a desire for a revised CENTO for the Middle East, with pro-Western strongmen ruling ruthlessly, and permanent US bases limiting national or clerical options.

What have you got? Let them eat indulgence, and spit jihad back at us? That is all I hear.

Posted by CaziFarkus">CaziFarkus 2006-01-09 08:02|| deleted]">[deleted] 2006-01-09 08:02|| Front Page Top

#8 I'd call that a 10 IQ point advantage, grom. Still within room comfortable temperature range, however, when sampled with a reality gauge. MaGiK doesn't just happen cuz you feel like a nano-tantrum - which describes your posts perfectly.

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 08:03|| 2006-01-09 08:03|| Front Page Top

#9 Maybe it's time for site registration. I'm getting real tired of the nuke the muslims trash talk. It's just as cowardly as the "let's surrender to the muslims" position that we so often attack and lampoon here.

I'm tired of extremists. The problem with extreme positions are that they are so easy. Nuke. Surrender. See? Just wave a white flag or push a button. No problem.

Like .com says, what's your plan? If you are in favor of nuking, at least tell us how you'd do it. Would you concentrate on the Arab core or all of Dar al Islam? Would you attack symbolic targets, or just get it over with and take out the top 200 population centers? And how, pray tell, would you secure our strategic flanks from Russia and China while this little genocidal exercise is going on?

And that's just the beginning. Do you have any thoughts on how we'd get control of the oil fields afterwards? How we'd keep the Strontium 90 out of the food chain and out of our kids bones? Replacing the warheads? Dealing with the inevitable Euro-whining afterwards? What's your plan?

Posted by 11A5S 2006-01-09 08:03|| 2006-01-09 08:03|| Front Page Top

#10 Edward Yee:

Stop those wheels!

Posted by CaziFarkus">CaziFarkus 2006-01-09 08:06|| deleted]">[deleted] 2006-01-09 08:06|| Front Page Top

#11 Well, there's the plan. I was writing at the same time CF was posting. See? It's all so easy. Liquidate, nuke, [fill in the blank]-free areas. Stalin would have loved it!

Posted by 11A5S 2006-01-09 08:11|| 2006-01-09 08:11|| Front Page Top

#12 .com you know that kish mir in tuches means?

Posted by gromgoru 2006-01-09 08:19|| 2006-01-09 08:19|| Front Page Top

#13 That's a helluva MaGiK wAnD you've got there - no wonder grom was onboard.

First, you left out the Within Reality thingy.

Second, you made a hash of it, mixing and commingling all sorts of, um, stuff. Cleaned up, organized, timelined, etc. (I don't feel any obligation to do it for you), it would amount to a couple of good ideas, alot of bullshit that no one will authorize - and yeah, that matters cuz of that pesky Constitution thingy, mucho breat-beating, ankle-biting, and Ye Olde Standy, Bile.

11A5S knows his shit - backwards, forwards, and inside-out - answer him.

You really do sound like the same old shit we've had before under different nyms, IToldYouSo - SayDoom! - Rex - et al. Lots of typed shit, when a simple link would do, puffing up the post to look important, yaddaÂ³ -- very little actionable or reality-based content.

You win the Icantypemoreshitthananyoneelsealive Award for today.

grom - ~~WTF cares?~~ Why don't you tell me / us. Still stuck on cryptic, I see. Still ignorable.

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 08:21|| 2006-01-09 08:21|| Front Page Top

#14 "seven and 10 years, respectively, and it took nearly 40 years of American military presence in South Korea to nurture a genuine stable democracy there."
In which time, did'nt we go from one of the most powerful nations in the world, to a super power. So are they saying we need to stay at least 3 to 6 more years in Iraq?

Posted by plainslow 2006-01-09 08:37|| 2006-01-09 08:37|| Front Page Top

#15 I have to trump the let-em-vote-once pack. After WW2, the Allies implemented a de-Nazification program in Germany. Did that make sense to you? The record of the ideological suppression campaign reveals a massive shift to democratic politics in West Germany.

After the liberations of Afghanistan and Iraq, the Allies bent over backward to include Islamofascists within the pseudo democratic processes. At one point al-Sadr, led as many as 10,000 supporters - many armed - in marches through North Baghdad. In Afghanistan, so-called "moderate Taliban" have run for office. The architect of the destruction of the Buddhas was voted to office in last year's elections. In Iraq, the outgoing US military commander noted a state of near "civil war" between Sunni and Shiite Islamofascists. His predecessors at the Coalition Provisional Authority carried out as Order #1, the "de-Baathization" of Iraq, thereby effectively abolishing Secularism and leaving a political vacuum which the Islamofascists filled.

Problem: the wheel-spinners would both support de-Nazification in the WW2 context and de-Secularization of Iraq as a phase of counter-terror, yet oppose de-Islamofascization of Iraq and Afghanistan. And you find that logically consistent with the nominal Bush' policy of placing pro-American regimes in the liberated entities. And you would refer to political dispensations based on cleric-controlled voting as: freedom. You are trumped.

I'm off to buy Bremer's book.

Posted by CaziFarkus">CaziFarkus 2006-01-09 08:40|| deleted]">[deleted] 2006-01-09 08:40|| Front Page Top

#16 Trumped? Lol. Twaddle.

It's called democracy. It's imperfect and, in almost all cases, rank and illiberal on the first go.

How lucky we were to have the particular folks who constituted our Founding Fathers, how utterly unique they were - in their Masonic aprons and quoting Seneca, is little appreciated. To be honest, there just aren't enough Geo Washingtons (et al) to go around, methinks, and they seldom seem to be in the right place, at the right time, with the right credentials, to turn a corrupt shithole into an honest attempt at liberal democracy.

As for Afghanistan and Iraq -- You expected, um, what, exactly?

From your last posts it seems you're a BDS zoomer, full of books and bullshit and bongwater. What transpires doesn't suit you, so it's Bush's fault. Segments of Afghanistan and Iraq are still stuck on stupid, go figure - they've never known anything else, and it's Bush's fault. They didn't immediately form 4-H Clubs and build Disneyland so, yep, it's Bush's fault. They didn't drop Islam or tribalism in the dirt and follow the CaziFarkus Plan - so it's Bush's fault.

Sigh.

What is Bush's fault is that the Taliban and Saddam are sorta out of power, no matter what individual wankers you wish to present in the center ring. We have Kerry and Kennedy and Pelosi and Dean and (...) - are they any less fucked up as elected officials? Is it any less demented and moronic that people actually vote them into office?

I say No. Hell No.

Honestly, Bush had to try. He felt compelled to give them a shot. History will judge him for it - however things turn out. You get your shot to bash him than pulling a lever in the voting booth. Your screed is BDS.

You want perfection. You won't get it. Here or anywhere else on this mortal coil. You could kill yourself - or you could pull your head out of your ass and recognize that just about all emerging democracies begin as illiberal shouting matches full of ancient feuds and irrational customs. Certainly the Arabs prove the rule in spades, but that doesn't mean they won't eventually get past their tribal chiefs and imams. Time. It takes time for custom to be swept aside, if it can't survive alteration. It takes time for people to look to the nation instead of their clan or ethnicity. It is easy to draw parallels here in the US to a major portion of what pisses you off. You just don't have the horsepower or the patience to see it - and accept it.

There are no MaGiK wAnDs. Anywhere. Never have been.

If we allowed the Kurds to be unshackled from the Arabs, they'd do it right. No doubts at all about that. Mebbe an example next door would accelerate the process for the backward Arabs. Worth a try - and they deserve the shot anyway.

I don't want any more US, UK, Ozzie, or any other coalition partner to lose any more troops - in Iraq, Afghanistan, or anywhere else. When they train up sufficiently, we will draw down accordingly.

I don't want any more nation-building attempts, either. Too expensive in blood and treasure for my taste. But I do believe in asshat regime toppling. By remote control whenever possible. I've heard that it has never been done without boots on the ground and, yaddaÂ³, thus can't be done. Well, I'd say much has changed in a very short time, regards technology, so I'd like to give it a solid try before accepting the Conventional (out of date) Wisdom, thanks. The difference between Gulf War I & GW-II is mind-boggling, regards the tech available. I think we should give it a go next we desire to rid the world of an asshat regime. Iran looks prime to be our first test case.

I like the notion of toppling asshat regimes, as needed. They can try to rebuild. If they're still bad actors, then rinse and repeat.

Trumped. Sure thing, son. Go buy your book. Cherry-pick it for shit that fits your screed. Your sudden conversion to civil discourse didn't fool me - you're a Hate Junkie. Additionally, I see Other People's Wisdom being stolen and presented as your own. You get your miracles second or third hand - as Twain said, you're drunk on the smell of someone else's cork.

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 09:37|| 2006-01-09 09:37|| Front Page Top

#17 "You get your shot to bash him ~~than~~ when pulling a lever in the voting booth."

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 09:39|| 2006-01-09 09:39|| Front Page Top

#18 This is the largest Sunni Arab party being told to stay away from the polls, something threats of bombs could not accomplish. Now they are trying to get them to stay home "for Jihad".

The Iranians are Shia.

Is this really so hard?

Posted by 2b 2006-01-09 10:13|| 2006-01-09 10:13|| Front Page Top

#19 psssst .com, he's not worthy.

Posted by 2b 2006-01-09 10:17|| 2006-01-09 10:17|| Front Page Top

#20 If all you come here for is therapy, you should be banned. This post qualifies you, IMHO, as yet another irrational Hater Without A Clueâ¢. Prove me wrong...

I'm down with it.

Posted by Pappy 2006-01-09 11:57|| 2006-01-09 11:57|| Front Page Top

#21 His predecessors at the Coalition Provisional Authority carried out as Order #1, the "de-Baathization" of Iraq, thereby effectively abolishing Secularism and leaving a political vacuum which the Islamofascists filled.

There is captured documentary evidence indicating that, in addition to sponsoring terror-training camps, the 'Secular Leader' and his ilk were quite willing to (and did) install Islamic fundamentalist precepts when it was conducive to maintaining power.

Posted by Pappy 2006-01-09 12:17|| 2006-01-09 12:17|| Front Page Top

#22 Re Pappy(s) Against Secularism and De-Islamofascization:

I have to trump you Pappy. Scroll down to CPA Order #1 on "De-Bathization."

http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/index.html#Regulations

No rhetorical gas-baggery can change the fact: the Bush government is encouraging political participation of Islamofascists, notwithstanding the inherent danger to the US and its allies, of the inevitable state of affairs when that aggressive and genocidal ideology holds hundreds of millions in its sway and has WMD within its jihad logistics. De-Nazification policies altered political perceptions in West Germany; only De-Islamofascization will produce pro-US regimes in Islamania. The current US temper - as exemplified by Rantburg posters (who will change course 180 degrees) - is to place the value of exercise of freedom of religion by genocidal entities, above enjoyment of security of person: your own person. Angry (bordering on murderous) posters like .com will soon finally direct said anger at the Islamofascists. He will do it when Bush does the same when he realizes the ideological Frankenstein he has created in Iraq.

Posted by CaziFarkus">CaziFarkus 2006-01-09 13:27|| deleted]">[deleted] 2006-01-09 13:27|| Front Page Top

#23 Say Mood!

Posted by Elmaimble Spitle5035 2006-01-09 16:08|| 2006-01-09 16:08|| Front Page Top

#24 ESpittle - lol!

Posted by 2b 2006-01-09 18:55|| 2006-01-09 18:55|| Front Page Top

#25 Let's talk nation-destruction, not building. It is time to put away the smart-bombs and dust off the nukes. Americans need to examine the national suicide mentality that followed 9-11. That event was a signal for wholesale slaughter. And the enemy that deserves it, has never been stronger

First use of nuclear weapons? Are you stuck on stupid? All that would accomplish is making America an instant target for any and all nuclear terrorist attacks. Open season would be declared and America would have alienated every single sane ally we have. Stop breathing your own exhaust long enough to let some oxygen circulate. What you are suggesting would cause America to abdicate all moral authority and effectively dismantle over 200 years of progress towards a model democracy.

... recognize that just about all emerging democracies begin as illiberal shouting matches full of ancient feuds and irrational customs. Certainly the Arabs prove the rule in spades, but that doesn't mean they won't eventually get past their tribal chiefs and imams. Time. It takes time for custom to be swept aside, if it can't survive alteration. It takes time for people to look to the nation instead of their clan or ethnicity.

.com, my one single concern is that there simply isn't enough time to permit such a gentle transition that you are suggesting. Yes, it is the most peaceable (for the Arabs, at least), method of converting these tribal cesspits into functioning nations.

However, time is the one thing we do not have. The advent of WMDs has changed everything. Iran is the poster child for just how little time there really is. As you know already, some abrupt regime changes are required d@mn soon if we hope to avoid a huge escalation in terrorism.

There are some very heavy-handed moves needed to prevent the sort of insanely stupid scenarios that CF proposes.

Posted by Zenster 2006-01-09 19:33|| 2006-01-09 19:33|| Front Page Top

#26 I enjoy the joking about nuking Iran, it is cathartic, and aside from being a little extreme it has the same end .com is after. My ânukeâ comments are mostly after toppling âasshatâ governments like most here want, albeit exaggerated. And for exaggerating I should apologize, should. Ha!

I do disagree with you .com in your statement about nation building. One of the failings in this war with Iraq was our lack of a âpost hostilities planâ. This lack of plan allowed for the insurgency to manifest while DOD built the plan. This is not Bush or Rummy bashing, this is an honest AAR of a very complicated war, âweâ missed it clean. I will also grant that in my speculating we will never know if a good plan would have worked or not, Iâm not that vain. Once you remove a government you must install an interim government and then build a permanent one. Otherwise anarchy will prevail and places like Somalia will be the norm. Cherry picking from Clausewitz, his book talks of both these issues. Unless, of course, you want to be a warring state all the time. To do this will always take boots on the ground. Boots on the ground will always win out over precision bombings, and nukes. Look at the postings on the Marines in Africa. They are nation building and removing threat. Not shooting and not bad for a warrior class who get it and are willing to do what it takes for peace. This is cheaper and easier in the long run and has proven to work.

Last point: Yes I do think we should be in Iraq for the next ten to twenty years. As we instill a peaceful government, like we did in Japan and Germany, we need to maintain a presence in the area to stabilize it. Then we must stay to defend it while it is weak, the reason we stayed in Germany for so many years after the war. And lastly to deter any other asshole government and to use it as a point of departure for our military in any future conflicts, like we did in Japan and the Philippines.

As for CF, La or whoever he calls himself, I tend to ignore, hoping they will go to another site.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-01-09 19:34|| 2006-01-09 19:34|| Front Page Top

#27 I could not agree more, Zen.

"The advent of WMDs has changed everything."

There it is, in a nutshell, and as you point out NaziFartus would prove the point and leave you to explain it to your grandchildren. That would be harder than killing the jihadi next door.

I have no doubt that there will be (cumulatively) oceans of blood spilled and spent in the coming years to neuter / cauterize the pestilence of Islam. But the simple solutions - removing the means - seems to be a bridge too far in the PC-addled West.

Indeed, we have a convergence, a near-perfect shit storm, of Wahhabist oil-ticks - pockets full of ready cash and colons full of zeal, insane and intractable demographics in fodder-ridden shitholes run by dictators where Islam rules, Tranzi socialists with numerous sugar-daddy Moonbats who "matured" to run institutions and companies - but are still stuck on stupid in the 60's, the total victory of PCism over logic and reason in the Western institutions, the rise of distractions and soporific diversions because the social support net prevents the uncomfortable intrusion of reality, the utter abdication of the MSM and conversion to tools, and the advent and rise of the insane screechers, lost children cum conspiracists, and myopic and/or mercenary liars to "respectability" - instead of a padded cell and heavy doses of Thorazine.

Gonna be a tough row to hoe. We need many things to armor ourselves, prepare ourselves, steel ourselves for the decades-long struggle that has just begun.

What we don't need are the hate-addled.

We need focus and resolve.

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 20:04|| 2006-01-09 20:04|| Front Page Top

#28 I went a picked up a new Hoe today. The old ones blade was almost gone from use.

I am with you PD. Hate isn't going to help us, common sense and logic need to prevail. Too many mistake snark of hate filled venom.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2006-01-09 20:12|| 2006-01-09 20:12|| Front Page Top

#29 man I need to proof read better "..mistake snark of for hate filled venom."

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2006-01-09 20:14|| 2006-01-09 20:14|| Front Page Top

#30 I overlapped with you 49pan...

Regards nation-building, hmmmm. To be honest I agree with you about post-war planning. The stutter-step where Bremer was installed being an example of winging it and second-guessing ruling the process.

Why I don't want any more of it is simple... the old conventional wisdom was that if you broke it, you owned it. I'm in favor of a new CW - you fuck it up and we'll break it - and you get to put it back together. And if we don't like it, we'll break that one, too. I do not want to lose people in half-baked plans. Sure, if we have an air-tight plan, then I'd change my mind... But...

I'll offer a heavy lump to think about: most comparisons between WW-II and now, much less the moronic Vietnam BS, do not take into account thesocietal norms prevalent in the places overthrown. Our "issues", for the most part, will be in the M.E. and will involve Islam and, mostly, Arabs. That is a whole nuther reality. There's more baggage there than in Nazism orRising Sun Empire. The similarities end with the ideology of world dominion, nihilistic rage against boogeymen, and perverse arrogance. Islam, and the Arab influence within, is a pure evil self-replicating pathogen. Everything about it is dedicated to its goals. No fat. No nirvana. No simple fervent nationalism or bouncing blue-eyed babies of the Master Race. No hope. For anyone. Imams rule, life sucks, and then you die.

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 20:20|| 2006-01-09 20:20|| Front Page Top

#31 SPo'D - does it have a titanium blade? It's all the rage today, y'know. Titanium silverware, bedsheets, condoms, food additives. Gotta be titanium or it's shit, nowadays, lol. ;-)

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 20:22|| 2006-01-09 20:22|| Front Page Top

#32 Your CW is clean but it really condemns our kids to fighting these assholes over again. Now your making me think nukes ainât so bad, just kidding. For example, we helped in the ass kicking the Mujahidin (sp) gave the Russians in Afghanistan, and then we walked. Without a stabilizing presence Anarchy festered, Pakistan took the opportunity and helped the radical Taliban into power, and ten years later we have an international terrorist training ground and 9/11. Iâm not saying we bear any responsibility to Afghanistan or 9/11, we just missed a golden opportunity to influence the region. We help Turkey, Qatar, Kuwait, and the Saudiâs, all Muslim and difficult to deal with. But we are not maneuvering columns of tanks there and, albeit somewhat reluctant to help, they are supporting a Christian nation fight Muslims. I'm sure it's more for the oil money than their good worldly nature. But we need stability in the area to get the oil.

Islam in the Arab states is exactly as you say. Life sucks! They completely understand being dominated, crushing them when they get out of line is what they know and understand and we should give it to them. But I think it is much more complicated than just crushing them and leaving them to rebuild. If we do that then we will be back at my kids fighting them another time, and I have fought in wars for the last 25 years, as it seems most RBrs have, hoping my sons wonât have to. Iâm not naive but if you donât finish the war, I.E. Korea, DS 1, Kosovo, Somalia etcâ¦ you will eventually have to go back and fight it again. I would really like to see us crush them hard and then keep them down because you are right about the Arab perspective having nothing to do with western ideals, IE they will never learn. They have not matured as a people since they were crushed during the crusades and if we donât put them in a position where they can do no harm we will just be waiting out for the next attack.

Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan 2006-01-09 21:07|| 2006-01-09 21:07|| Front Page Top

#33 49pan - You've described the dilemma very very well. I'll have to chew on it awhile. Reading Michael Yon, as well as serious posts from OS and others here, has made me very reluctant to try it again. You will enjoy Dave D's most excellent post, if you haven't already seen it. I refer to it rather frequently as new info comes in or new ideas are floated - just to see if they meet the reality to BS criteria.

I am boggled that some can't see that we had to try. I will say that what I saw and dealt with in Saudi strikes me as beyond redemption. Cutting off the means to export it (or, perhaps, even practice it) seems our best, least costly, path. I remain committed to the Republic of Eastern Arabia, heh.

I hold out serious hope that we will have tech advances that will, indeed, do what you don't agree can be done. I'll suggest that even if we don't occupy the ground we can deny it to the asshats, if we choose to do so, via tech. I'm hoping for much more capability than that, eventually.

Thanks for the thoughtful and fact-filled reply. Gotta go think about this nation-building stuff some more. :-)

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 21:28|| 2006-01-09 21:28|| Front Page Top

#34 I don't think of it as nation building. I think of it more as civil engineering along the lines of fighting diseases by installing clean water systems and sewers.

Image: a swamp of standing water, where pathologies are breeding. Typhoid, cholara start spreading to the surrounding communities. Death toll rises and something must be done.

You can spray the swamp to try to kill mosquitos, bacteria ... but that's a monumental and pretty much futile approach. Or, you can drain the swamp. It's a pretty big swamp, so you look for a few places where the water is shallower or there's some foundation to build a dike on. And you start build it ... a long, hard, frustrating task. It stinks in that swamp, the waters keep trying to come back. But if you can get those first dikes up, and drain some fields, not only is there less disease breeding there, the fields might turn out to be fertile. At least, they can hold grasses and eventually trees that keep the soil in place and the swamp from re-emerging, especially if some care is given to ensure drainage.

A wierd analogy, I guess. But an awful lot of our modern way of life is built on clean water and functioning sewers .....

Posted by lotp 2006-01-09 21:53|| 2006-01-09 21:53|| Front Page Top

#35 and you can thank Snarky Civil Engineersâ¢ for that!

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2006-01-09 22:08|| 2006-01-09 22:08|| Front Page Top

#36 Lol, lotp - I like where you left it hanging - if intended as I read it, beaucoup snark, lol. Maybe it's just my twisted...

It's an apropos analogy... You were civil, but my twister responds with a slightly pointed menu of choices:
1) hand fill and teach the locals as we go
2) tell 'em to stand back and call in the ~~Corriepillers~~ D-9's

Recalling video of the Corpse of Eng in "action" in NO I'll add:
3) drop a coupla billion sacks of sand
4) drop a coupla billion sacks of Portland cement
5) drop all our toxic waste, medical stuff needle-down

Or a mix, as the situation demands. ;-)

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 22:08|| 2006-01-09 22:08|| Front Page Top

#37 "I am boggled that some can't see that we had to try."

What I've been wondering lately, is whether it's already settled that our "Islamic Democratization" experiment is a one-shot deal. After what George W. has had to go through politically to get it this far, can you imagine another American president ever trying it again, somewhere else? I can't-- not even if our efforts in Iraq yield fruit far beyond today's most optimistic expectations.

Which means the next time the brown stuff hits the propeller, whoever's President then will reach for one of the other options. And I shudder to think which option he might choose in retaliation for a major terrorist attack, especially if that President is a Democrat-- gotta achieve a quick fix so as to get back to pandering, and all that...

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-01-09 22:43|| 2006-01-09 22:43|| Front Page Top

#38 On the serious side - I'm afraid you're right. Since this takes a loooong time - it's automatically going to become a quagmireâ¢ in the minds of the instant gratification / May fly attention-span krowd - and time may be a luxury we wouldn't have even without the ankle-biters and toolfools.

As for a Dhimmidonk Prez, well, you nailed it, heh. Image over content, style over substance - with the fate of Freedom in the balance - a pointless political farce.

Posted by .com 2006-01-09 22:56|| 2006-01-09 22:56|| Front Page Top

#39 I have "the list" handy and refer to it as well.
When you think about it, it is pretty sobering in a logical sort of way.

Posted by Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom 2006-01-09 22:57|| 2006-01-09 22:57|| Front Page Top

#40 But the simple solutions - removing the means - seems to be a bridge too far in the PC-addled West.

Which is why I made such a hue and cry over that Pentagon reassessment concerning the political and ideological nature of Islam. If our military can somehow break free and finally understand the ideological nature of Islam, then appropriate action could be taken (domestically, at least) to begin containing Wahhabist radicalism and begin ~~exporting~~ deporting this excrement post haste.

Posted by Zenster 2006-01-09 23:12|| 2006-01-09 23:12|| Front Page Top

#41 For whatever it may be worth, I added one option to The List.

I can't recollect which one of 'em's new right at the moment on account of the beer, but I do know that at some point the "Eight Options" became nine...

Posted by Dave D.">Dave D. 2006-01-09 23:14|| 2006-01-09 23:14|| Front Page Top

#42 Both sides in this nuke non-nuke crush occupation nation something argument are too simplistic and show a lack of understanding of religous fevor. True understanding.
As a PK whose seen the underbelly of the Christian one from some practicioners... and can grok the muslim pray thingy...
Politicans and military types really don't grok what they are dealing with....

My mouth my say the Nuke word but my brain say neurons need blending and whipping - that implies Skinner and Pavlov and Lily and Leary and the greatful dead and meds in the water, meds in the food, meds in the tv shows == full metal jacket propagada sat tv.... done right and years of brain wipes...

Psych on steriods along with destruction of belief structures is on order -- BUT --- Remember that the desert trader is a Ferengi and a Ferengi without some religion to temper him is even more of a barbarian danger.

So his capitalist nature needs to be channeled in a benign way too. This will be very (maybe too) hard for a capitalist society like the US to accomplish.

just my random unwashed instant thoughts...
(I may see it differently tomorrow..)

Posted by 3dc 2006-01-09 23:35|| 2006-01-09 23:35|| Front Page Top

23:59 .com
23:42 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom
23:40 JosephMendiola
23:37 Skidmark
23:35 3dc
23:25 twobyfour
23:19 Eric Jablow
23:14 Dave D.
23:12 Zenster
23:05 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom
22:59 JosephMendiola
22:57 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom
22:56 .com
22:52 JosephMendiola
22:46 3dc
22:43 Dave D.
22:42 3dc
22:40 Ernest Brown
22:37 .com
22:36 .com
22:36 3dc
22:30 .com
22:28 49 Pan
22:28 JosephMendiola