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| Iraq-Jordan | |
| Marines bomb Fallujah mosque | |
| 2004-04-07 | |
US marines pressing an offensive in this Iraqi town west of Baghdad bombed a mosque in the center of the town Wednesday and killed up to 40 insurgents inside, a marine officer said. The attack came from a jet aircraft at a high angle to minimize the impact, the officer said. "We wanted to kill the people inside," said Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne.
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| Posted by:Steve |
| #83 #80,81,82 Like this,LH: And for your viewing enjoyment No charge for the service. :) |
| Posted by: GK 2004-04-07 11:59:07 PM |
| #82 ex-lib - to make a working link in a comment, you have to have some highlighted text when you click the link button and fill in the URL - it will wrap the HTML tags around the text you had highlighted and make it "hot". |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 9:30:53 PM |
| #81 Guess I don't know how to use the link function. If you want to go to: And for your viewing enjoyment: it's at: http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part7.html |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2004-04-07 7:14:36 PM |
| #80 LH: Admittedly, I don't frequent synagogues. Haven't been in one for about twenty years. But, nevertheless, I'm not talking about the types of diatribes you listed. I'm talking about the "let's get out and kill the infidels right now and you'll find some guns and suicide vests out in the lobby" types of diatribes. And for your viewing enjoyment . . . (note: once you're there, if you click on "home" at the bottom, there's even more--quite an education.) |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2004-04-07 6:32:50 PM |
| #79 The AFP is in their "French" mode : "...a marine officer was later forced to admit that US forces had failed to find any bodies in the mosque. Forced to admit? AFP was later forced to admit that Lt Col Byrne said that insurgents may have dragged off the bodies. |
| Posted by: Anonymous4052 2004-04-07 5:54:03 PM |
| #78 ex-lib - ive heard sermons at Synagogues in America with everything from diatribes against the govt of Israel for being too mean to the Pals, too diatribes against the govt of Israel for being too easy on the Pals, against the govt of Israel for favoring the Orthodox, and for allowing the Orthodox to be persecuted (this after the Rabin assasination) they tend to be more circumspect on US politics, at least as regards specific pols, evidently they dont think they can get away with being as overtly political as, say, black churches are. Nonetheless plenty of diatribes about all kinds of issues, from the environment to abortion. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 4:54:47 PM |
| #77 The mosques are more like political "offices" or "community centers" used for political indoctrination purposes. Typically, after the Islamotwerps dutifully recite the expected lines of "prayer", it's time for speeches. The fiery speeches are about the evils done against Islam by America, etc., and how the "worshippers" are not real men or Moslems if they don't get out and fight. This would certainly blow the minds of many in the West who have at least some experience with American churches or synagogues, where political speech is kept to a minimum most of the time, and the kinds of diatribes that go on in the mosques are completely unheard of. THAT's why the media can spin the story. People are drawing on their own personal experience of "houses of worship," and haven't got a clue that the mosques are so different. |
| Posted by: ex-lib 2004-04-07 4:34:29 PM |
| #76 AP has more on mosques and Marines Kimmit reports that at first mosque, where airpower was used, the minaret was damaged but not destroyed. At a second mosque, taken by USMC ground forces,a Marine climbed the minaret to fire on insurgents, the insurgents then fired RPGs at the minaret, destroying it. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 3:39:11 PM |
| #75 The most balanced summary on today's fighting is from (surprise!) AFP. |
| Posted by: 11A5S 2004-04-07 3:18:29 PM |
| #74 If they barricade themselves inside a mosque, we are not going to care about the mosque any more than they do Bottom line - In truth, Islamofacists have no frame of reference to our Marines. They just don't get it. Drop your arms, go home, live -- fight, on, but don't expect to be greeted by the virgins. |
| Posted by: Anonymous4052 2004-04-07 3:08:10 PM |
| #73 Ya know, I'm in my early thirties. I remember Rather and the crew at 60 Minutes being on the air when I was a kid. I'm in my early forties, and I remember the same thing. |
| Posted by: Angie Schultz 2004-04-07 2:59:26 PM |
| #72 Isn't Rather SeeBS's chief talking head? Didn't he make his name in Vietnam? Ya know, I'm in my early thirties. I remember Rather and the crew at 60 Minutes being on the air when I was a kid. Isn't it time they retired and made room for some younger people? Same goes for Jennings -- I remember HIM from my teen years. Isn't it time to move on? |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-04-07 2:47:37 PM |
| #71 "If they barricade themselves inside a mosque, we are not going to care about the mosque any more than they do" Ack..I almost wet my pants when I read this...heh.. |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2004-04-07 2:47:15 PM |
| #70 LH--Okay, fine--you won that round, but I'll be back! BWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA! Besides, I can never tell the difference between mosques and baby milk factories. It's like being color-blind, only different. Um... yeah. |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-04-07 2:44:57 PM |
| #69 CBS News: Coalition troops battling a two-pronged insurgency clashed with Iraqis in at least six cities Wednesday, and one radical cleric warned his country could become "the next Vietnam." Is this cleric named Al-Tad Al-Kennady? CBS : Walter Cronkite is retired - Get over it! |
| Posted by: Anonymous4052 2004-04-07 2:34:56 PM |
| #68 LOL! Okay, let's rephrase something here: The Bad Guys, ye olde jihadis, are Islamic Calipahte Loonies. They are, or will at least appear to be, the most devout of all of the Muslims. If they go to the Moskkk at prayer time, well hell - that's just a target-rich opportunity! Ace the lot of them if you can. Fuck this PC noise! Just who the hell do the Press think we're fighting? We're fighting Muslim jihadis. Sheesh, what a quagmire of non-thinking LLL twits! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 2:32:19 PM |
| #67 -yeah right, gathered for prayers while a firefight ensued outside, use your head ABC - they were either insurgents, sympathizers, or just plain stupid. I'll believe Lt Vanzant's version over ABC. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 2:26:40 PM |
| #66 ABC Report? "Gathering for afternoon prayers." O Allah, let not my AK47 jam! |
| Posted by: Anonymous4052 2004-04-07 2:16:49 PM |
| #65 "The strike came as worshippers had gathered for afternoon prayers...." OK, but why were they carrying puppies and baby ducks with them? And how did we miss the hospital and the orphanage? This must be the conservative reporter for ABC. |
| Posted by: Matt 2004-04-07 2:14:20 PM |
| #64 CF - Sure - the jihadis are the most devout worshippers. Kill 'em in the nest. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 2:11:53 PM |
| #63 ABC News Headline: U.S. troops battling a fierce uprising have reportedly fired missiles from a helicopter gunship at a packed mosque, killing dozens. The hit comes amid a rising G.I. death toll and follows calls for jihad against Americans. Makes it sound like the occupants were woshipers... Story: The strike came as worshippers had gathered for afternoon prayers.... |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2004-04-07 2:09:11 PM |
| #62 CF - Q.E.fuckingD. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 2:08:31 PM |
| #61 From Fox: Marines making incursions toward Fallujah's city center on Wednesday battled gunmen in the streets. Mosque loudspeakers blared calls for jihad, or holy war, and women were seen carrying guns in the streets. This makes mosque's and gun carrying women valid targets to me. 'Everyone in That Mosque Was an Insurgent' U.S. Marines attacked two mosques in Fallujah only after coming under enemy fire from inside the buildings, said Lt. James Vanzant, 2nd Battalion, 1st Marine Expeditionary Force from Camp Pendleton, Calif. Pentagon officials said the mosques sustained no significant damage. "Everyone in that mosque was an insurgent," Vanzant said referring to claims that 40 people were killed inside. |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2004-04-07 2:04:47 PM |
| #60 You are too kind. Really, the points belong to the smart, disciplined and brave folks of the US Marine Corps. They honor us all. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 1:56:36 PM |
| #59 #55 Error on link Mattis Bio - Sorry |
| Posted by: Anonymous4052 2004-04-07 1:55:05 PM |
| #58 Lol, LH. Points happily awarded!!! That makes about a billion or so, by my count! Good on ya, bro! Indeed, most small town moskkks are "compounds" with an outer wall and (usually) more than one bldg. In bigger cities there are many moskkks and the compound is more unusual, unless it's one of those mega-holy shrine things. Good call! |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 1:52:41 PM |
| #57 "LH reflects smugly on his judgement about Mosque architecture and Marine tactics" Heh. *I* understood your original point in #19, LH ! ;) |
| Posted by: Carl in N.H 2004-04-07 1:50:12 PM |
| #56 CNN The source said that attackers were firing at Marines from the wall and from inside the compound. The wall was several hundred yards from the mosque, which was not damaged, the source said. "We specifically did not target the mosque as we felt we could engage the enemy in the area with disciplined and well-aimed fire from our Marines without needing to cause extensive damage to the mosque and surrounding structures," the source said. Muslims consider the entire mosque compound to be part of the mosque. If the building is full, worshippers gather on the grounds of the compound. LH reflects smugly on his judgement about Mosque architecture and Marine tactics. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 1:47:07 PM |
| #55 Maj Gen Mattis - Looks like a typical no-B.S. Senior Marine Officer. We are well represented there. Bio : http://www.usmc.mil/genbios2.nsf/0/35e4cf7347323b108525680800620eed?OpenDocument&Click= |
| Posted by: Anonymous4052 2004-04-07 1:44:43 PM |
| #54 growler -- CBS news is reporting it that way. My co-worker thought I had gone (more) insane. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-04-07 1:40:01 PM |
| #53 growler, I am NOT one to defend the "major media" (spit), but it seems that this is being reported; even the BBC said that the Marines took fire from the mosque first. How that info is ignored and the incident is spun by the usual morons is a different matter, of course. |
| Posted by: Carl in N.H 2004-04-07 1:39:07 PM |
| #52 snellenr: My point was that most media won't report that it took a while for this to happen because the guys on the field were exercising restraint. Instead, it will be spun as: US troops indiscriminately bomb holy site. |
| Posted by: growler 2004-04-07 1:31:19 PM |
| #51 Mattis.. Cool! Promote his ass!!! Sanchez, take a vacation, dood. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 1:17:38 PM |
| #50 "Maj Gen James Mattis - "If they barricade themselves inside a mosque, we are not going to care about the mosque any more than they do" -His call sign is Chaos-6. Known to be a tactical genius, developed the I MEF plan of attack up to Baghdad during OIF - this guy does not screw around. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 1:15:11 PM |
| #49 Same from Kimmet on Fox right now. Paraphrasing him... When they use a moskkk for violence, we will use Iraqi forces first, but if that doesn't work, the moskkk loses its religious significance and coalition forces will use necessary means. (Studio audience applauded, BTW) |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 1:14:34 PM |
| #48 BBC Maj Gen James Mattis, 1st Marine Division commander, defended the attack. "If they barricade themselves inside a mosque, we are not going to care about the mosque any more than they do," said Gen Mattis, quoted by the AFP news agency. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 1:08:24 PM |
| #47 snellenr - Good point. When the shit's flying, the time it takes to hook everyone up in the chain of command, plus the time for them to decide, is an eternity. 2 or 3 minutes is your ass, usually, so this political shit needs to be ejected out the nearest airlock at the rarified command level. Such BS kills. Just heard on Fox that they captured several Syrians in Fallujah, today. How neighborly of them to drop in! It might be an effective ploy to toss a Damascus mission and a Teheran mission into the mix today and see if that puts a damper on the flow of arms and jihadis. Might as well fight the cause as well as the symptoms. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 1:07:32 PM |
| #46 .com -- sounds more to me like the officer recognized that the decision to target a mosque was (in Iraq) both a tactical and a political one, and bumped it up the chain of command to a level that had the authority to make the political decision. I note that the article doesn't say how long it took to get the mission authorized -- if the air resources had to be called in anyway, it may not have had any significant effect on the timing of the mission. |
| Posted by: snellenr 2004-04-07 12:59:57 PM |
| #45 Re #32, growler - I'm sure this is SOP and I don't doubt for a second that there's some guy whose job is to make the PC argument to "moderate" the decision process. But this is war - and the accomplishment of the mission and the lives of those at the point of the spear must come first. Somebody needs their ass kicked for denying them the assist they rightly asked for, yet expected them to complete the mission without it. He is a fucktard and should be demoted to slick sleeve and put on the line so he can recall what it's like to have his ass on the line. Obviously too much time has elapsed since he ate some dust and felt the adrenaline of a real soldier. Send him back to "Go!" - he needs a refresher. |
| Posted by: .com 2004-04-07 12:43:12 PM |
| #44 LD -- You really can't believe Kerry's that stupid? I have two words for you: "Winter Soldier". That's how stupid Kerry is; nothing out of his mouth surprises me. BTW -- anyone know what happened to Kerry's promised "fact-finding" trip to Iraq? Did he drop it? |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-04-07 12:29:12 PM |
| #43 I can't believe even Kerry would be that stupid. I suggest we arrange a trip over there for him, and let him go meet with them to negotiate with them. |
| Posted by: Lil Dhimmi 2004-04-07 12:04:58 PM |
| #42 Hellfire info |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-04-07 12:00:33 PM |
| #41 And in contrast to Zeyad, whose butt is on the line here, John Kerry took a break from counting his money to say: "We can't allow this to continue," Mr. Kerry said, meeting with reporters on Monday. "There has to be a political, diplomatic solution which, regrettably, this administration seems stubbornly determined to avoid." (Per Silent Running.) |
| Posted by: Matt 2004-04-07 11:10:48 AM |
| #40 Zeyad has another good post up at Healing Iraq: "No one knows where it is all heading. If this uprising is not crushed immediately and those militia not captured then there is no hope at all. If you [I assume he means the coalition] even consider negotiations or appeasement, then we are all doomed." |
| Posted by: Matt 2004-04-07 11:06:33 AM |
| #39 Thanks for the info, gents! |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-04-07 11:03:49 AM |
| #38 "Fallujah Mosque Struck By Hellfire" Yep, that sounds about right to me. |
| Posted by: BH 2004-04-07 11:01:16 AM |
| #37 Well, now we know why Sadr left the Mosque in Bahgdad. Think someone tipped him off that we were considering hitting the Mosque? |
| Posted by: Charles 2004-04-07 10:56:53 AM |
| #36 #22 Amen, mojo. Next! |
| Posted by: Rex Mundi 2004-04-07 10:54:23 AM |
| #35 Dunno. The classic anti-armor Hellfire does a pop-and-top-hook downwards to take advantage of thinner top-hull armor. No idea whether they're modified for precision anti-personnel usage, I haven't been able to find anything on Google about it yet. |
| Posted by: Mitch H. 2004-04-07 10:53:57 AM |
| #34 Hellfires are wire guided, Dar. Can be launched from the ground or air. Usually by helicopter. Means the gunner has to keep the target in sight until it impacts. Can come in at whatever angle the gunner desires... The bad guys should have known we'd be taking the gloves off after the desecrations... Go ahead and run. You'll just die tired! |
| Posted by: Jack Deth 2004-04-07 10:53:47 AM |
| #33 Don't fret people. If they have video of this, how much you wanna bet there was a crap load of secondary explosions, indicating this "Mosque" was really an arms depot. |
| Posted by: Rafael 2004-04-07 10:51:47 AM |
| #32 What you won't hear in the mainstream press (except perhaps in passing) is this: "Part of the wall surrounding the Abdul-Aziz al-Samarrai mosque was demolished, said AP reporter Abdul-Qader Saadi, though the mosque building was not damaged." Also, the Washington Post reports: Five Marines had been shot from the mosque before commanders authorized the use of air power and laser-guided missiles against it. They had rejected the air attack several times, according to Marine officers and radio communications monitored from a command post by a Washington Post reporter. "We've got to be careful," said one officer receiving a request for air support from the Marines around the mosque. "We have some bad folks dug in," came the response. "They're creating a problem for us. What should we do? We need backup." "We need regimental approval," came the reply. Not long afterwards, a spokesman at the command post said the air support was authorized. A spokesman said the missiles were fired from a helicopter and a jet |
| Posted by: growler 2004-04-07 10:49:56 AM |
| #31 My God, a dream come true. Finally, a mosque that combatants took shelter in was targeted. Unbelievable. And excellent! |
| Posted by: Bomb-a-rama 2004-04-07 10:46:34 AM |
| #30 The bit about the 500 lb. bomb makes more sense to me than the helicopter-launched Hellfires as for attaining a high-angle impact. Am I correct in understanding that a Hellfire bores straight in as opposed to diving in steeply like an anti-ship missile? |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-04-07 10:38:35 AM |
| #29 Hey! I'm all for making mosques, museums and churches as santuaries (sp?) But if the people who hide in there think that they can use turn around and use them as some sort of untouchable fort - then blame them for violating the sanctity. |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-07 10:33:51 AM |
| #28 LH--Mosques, like churches, come in various shapes and sizes. You may be right about the open courtyard, but it's just as likely a simple building, too. Wish we could be privy to the AAR to get the full story! |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-04-07 10:32:22 AM |
| #27 LOL Dar... This ole Moskk indeed. |
| Posted by: Shipman 2004-04-07 10:31:36 AM |
| #26 CNN In Fallujah, where U.S. Marines have been engaged in running battles with insurgents over the past 24 hours, a U.S. military source said U.S. forces dropped a 500-pound bomb on a wall near the Aziz al-Samarrai mosque. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 10:29:50 AM |
| #25 Right yoiu are LH. Most locals Mosques look just like any other building no cross, moon, or star to tell what it is. The bad guys thought they were safe when they entered the mosque but they made it a legal target at that point. Too bad soooo sad! |
| Posted by: Cyber Sarge (VRWC CA Chapter) 2004-04-07 10:29:42 AM |
| #24 RC: Fair play - knew I'd be savaged as soon as I made the last post. I presume that the Marines have a different approach than other parts of the American services. It's not a matter of Marines vs. Army; it's a matter of the laws of war. Protected sites (mosques, libraries, hospitals, etc.) lose their protected status when combatants take shelter in them. |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-04-07 10:29:24 AM |
| #23 What else does "high angle to minimize impact" mean? >LH, think dive bomber style so the impact goes straight down precision style vice taking the explosion across yards of other facilities. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 10:28:28 AM |
| #22 Mosque, schmosque, as they say. I didn't see the mullahs and their ilk getting excited over that bunch of Paleos shitting in the corners of the Church of the Nativity. No, it's only Muslim holy sites that are out of bounds, and hence safe havens. Bullshit. Fire away. |
| Posted by: mojo 2004-04-07 10:27:31 AM |
| #21 More to the point, we bombed the Benedictine abbey at Mont Cassino flat, despite qualms about Catholic outrage at the time. Churches in Normandy suspected to be used by artillery spotters and forward observers were also levelled. Who gives a shit about a garden-variety mosque? The Ali shrine in Najaf is a different story - kinda like that stand-off in the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem a few years ago. |
| Posted by: Mitch H. 2004-04-07 10:26:00 AM |
| #20 If Hitler had ben hidding in a church the Allies would have taken the proper action to kill or capture him. It's the same with this fat Shi'ite terrorist rat, Moqtada Sadr! No matter the location of Sadr hit it and hit it again! |
| Posted by: Mark Espinola 2004-04-07 10:10:30 AM |
| #19 y'all seem to be assuming a mosque looks like a church, nave, apse, and all. IIUC, mosques typically have large unroofed internal courtyards. Sounds to me like they took out a bunch of terrs in the courtyard. What else does "high angle to minimize impact" mean? |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 10:05:22 AM |
| #18 result? The "insurgents" now know they aren't safe in the mosque...time to televise the "islamic heros" using human shields - play the PR game |
| Posted by: Frank G 2004-04-07 10:04:15 AM |
| #17 These idiots are the ones screaming "HOLY WAR." Since that's what they want, its entirely appropriate to level any so-called "holy" site they use as a bunker. |
| Posted by: Laurence of the Rats 2004-04-07 10:00:02 AM |
| #16 I agree --- sparing the Mosques was ok as long as they were not used as 'safe havens'. Wait for the Left (and CAIR here in the US) to get their panties all in a knot about it. |
| Posted by: CrazyFool 2004-04-07 9:59:02 AM |
| #15 I don't like the idea of bombing the mosques, but they pushed it too far. The rules of the game just changed. The ol' "ollie ollie in come free" just changed to - "ollie ollie incoming". |
| Posted by: B 2004-04-07 9:55:53 AM |
| #14 now the 3,032nd most fucked up site in islam. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 9:53:54 AM |
| #13 ...they killed the terrorists and left the building standing. Well, with no roof, no interior walls, and all furnishings and inhabitants reduced to ash and stains, it may still be standing but it's a prime candidate for Bob Villa and "This Old Mosque". |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-04-07 9:52:15 AM |
| #12 The attack came from a jet aircraft at a high angle to minimize the impact, the officer said. "We wanted to kill the people inside," sounds to me like they killed the terrorists and left the building standing. |
| Posted by: Liberalhawk 2004-04-07 9:44:15 AM |
| #11 Three Hellfires, apparently. How appropriate. |
| Posted by: Parabellum 2004-04-07 9:43:03 AM |
| #10 Amen, brother. I'm tired of seeing the CPA and Military briefers fielding questions that always sound like invitations for the US to apologize. Apologize my ass .... we are out to kill a bunch of malcontents. Line 'em up, and we'll mow 'em down. We can make bullets faster than they can breed malcontents. Let's see, what's next on the Target List? |
| Posted by: Lone Ranger 2004-04-07 9:40:57 AM |
| #9 RC: Fair play - knew I'd be savaged as soon as I made the last post. I presume that the Marines have a different approach than other parts of the American services. I'm sure if it was Brits that were lynched I'd expect us to do the same. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-04-07 9:38:24 AM |
| #8 I am getting the warm fuzzies. |
| Posted by: Dragon Fly 2004-04-07 9:36:00 AM |
| #7 Howard, not sensible is putting combatants in a mosque to begin with. When that happens, the mosque's status goes from "protected" to "target". |
| Posted by: Robert Crawford 2004-04-07 9:33:39 AM |
| #6 The jarheads know a target when they see one. |
| Posted by: badanov 2004-04-07 9:31:16 AM |
| #5 Not particularly sensible, but good to see the gloves are off at last. |
| Posted by: Howard UK 2004-04-07 9:19:01 AM |
| #4 Damn right it's about time. The lives of our servicemen and women are way more important than any f'ing temple of hate. It reminds me of that AC-130 gunship video from Afghanistan where the crew is told not to touch the mosque--which is crawling with cockroaches. Forget the cultural sensitivities. This is war. The enemy should NEVER feel safe wherever they are. |
| Posted by: Dar 2004-04-07 9:18:34 AM |
| #3 IB, damn right, and I'm proud we got to do it first without reservations. I bet the comm between the FAC and the Pilot was something like "yeah, that stupid looking building with the gold dome, no, 500 pounder too little, giv'em the good stuff." |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 9:18:13 AM |
| #2 About time. |
| Posted by: Infidel Bob 2004-04-07 9:14:05 AM |
| #1 Awesome. How do you like that f*ckers!! Hide in a mosque, die in a mosque. |
| Posted by: Jarhead 2004-04-07 9:12:01 AM |