Article

2008-08-15 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

File under, merits further consideration: Dome of the Rock 'erased' from Temple Mount

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Posted by phil_b 2008-08-15 04:13|| || Front Page|| [1 views ] Top

#1 No Christian Zionists here? I'm not but there is a good case for asserting Judaeo-Christian civilization. The presense of arab muslims in the Holy Lands is a residue of a repugnant conquest.

Posted by McZoid 2008-08-15 06:14|| 2008-08-15 06:14|| Front Page Top

#2 McZZZ: No Christian Zionists here? I'm not but there is a good case for asserting Judaeo-Christian civilization. The presense of arab muslims in the Holy Lands is a residue of a repugnant conquest

I second the motion and Bedamed the howling and screaming coming from the ~~homosexual~~ English and Yourpeean Fagot News Rags.

Posted by Red Dawg">Red Dawg 2008-08-15 06:37|| 2008-08-15 06:37|| Front Page Top

#3 What other possibility have the Paleostains left as a viable alternative? Living together in peace and harmony? Don't make me laugh.
The PA and Gaza have sat back and encouraged the militarization and radicalization of their society to the point where it is probably the most poisonous and dangerous in the world. I think THEY have erased any future for themselves in Jerusalem, not the Jews. If they started now, in 20 years they could have a normal-ish society, but you cannot erase a lifetime of hate and brainwashing with the signing of a peace accord.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-15 07:46|| 2008-08-15 07:46|| Front Page Top

#4 there are goofy groups in ISrael too,yup. At least they mainly just put out pamphlets, not make bombs, like the Pals. This is NOT good for Israeli PR, and they should shut up.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-15 09:40|| 2008-08-15 09:40|| Front Page Top

#5 Theres a big difference between being a nut in the general sense of it and murdering people with a bulldozer. I think most if not all rational people recognize these guys as the nuts they really are.

Posted by bigjim-ky 2008-08-15 11:09|| 2008-08-15 11:09|| Front Page Top

#6 The real hard core Zionists should take over the West Bank and form their own state. Displace troublemakers, clean house, and ensure rule of law and jobs. Name it Palestine. Get some Christian Arabs into the government as spokesmen to help with the propaganda.

This would create a buffer state, put a lid on the ungovernable while giving Israel deniability and the chance to play Good Cop for a change. If the Boers could have two states why not the Jews?

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-15 12:12|| 2008-08-15 12:12|| Front Page Top

#7 RJ - there are a hundred thousand or so settlers in the WB - but a considerable number are not that hard core and live in settlements close to the old 67 line what everyone expects Israel to keep, and are unmotivated to do a Rhodesia. Lets take all the settlers who live "beyond the security wall" and add a good portion of those who live close to Israel but are ideologically motivated. Thats like 80,000.

Now add the rest of the ultra vote - those who vote for parties like NRP-National Union. IIUC they have less than 5% of the vote,so thats maybe 300,000 all told, but the 80,000 virtuall all double counts with that. And SOME of those guys are content to vote for hardline policies, but wouldnt move to WestbankRhodesia. Add a few Likud voters to add to that. I think youre probably talking 300,000 people tops.

Of whom 250,000 would be fresh arrivals in Westbank Rhodesia, whod need housing fast. Meanwhile the PA security forces ALONG with the terrorists/militias would have a free hand to go after them, while Israel and the IDF stand aloof.

It would be one big bloody mess, and while it would kill lots of arabs (making some folks here happy) it would not achieve what the settler want. It would end either with total chaos, with an ARAB intervention on behalf of the PA, OR, to avoid that, an IDF intervention which while it might be applauded in the short run by the settlers, would lead to almost all Israelis deciding that the whole settlement movement is insane, which would lead to the destruction of the settlements by the IDF, whether or not Israel continued negotiations with the arabs.

Rhodesia was thousands of miles from London, so the UK could ignore it. Israel has no such luxury wrt to the West bank.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-15 12:25|| 2008-08-15 12:25|| Front Page Top

#8 Israel should have long ago expelled the Muslims from Jerusalem, knocked down the al-Asqa mosque, and been done with it. Instead they let the open wound fester and become gangrenous.

With the next, inevitable war, the Israelis should be prepared to be done with Arabs and mosques. No reason to be murderous about it, just forceful. They have to leave, and have several days to get their affairs in order.

If they want to be extra nice, then their lands will be sold by the Israeli government at market prices, and they will be sent a check for the sale price.

Posted by Anonymoose 2008-08-15 13:43|| 2008-08-15 13:43|| Front Page Top

#9 It's an iron rule of history that peoples who can't coexist, don't.

I realize it is horribly un-PC to say so, but the Israelis better ethnic cleanse the Arabs before the Arabs ethnically cleanse them.

Posted by phil_b 2008-08-15 13:59|| 2008-08-15 13:59|| Front Page Top

#10 liberalhawk, you are right but you also assume that all Pals would side with Fatah. There are examples galore of a small group keeping a larger group under their thumb. The timing would have to be carefully managed but I don't really see a whole lot of solutions in that region. Pals can't govern themselves and Jordan wants no part of them and the world (and Israel) don't want Israel to run the place. So what's left?

Posted by rjschwarz 2008-08-15 15:18|| 2008-08-15 15:18|| Front Page Top

#11 liberalhawk, you are right but you also assume that all Pals would side with Fatah. There are examples galore of a small group keeping a larger group under their thumb.

its not just that this aint rhodesia or south africa (pals are much more politicised, much more heavily armed, and have heavily armed neighbors nearby) its that the settlers and their sympathizers (whom I refuse to call ultraZionists, for a variety of reasons I consider them LESS Zionist than the rest of the Israeli spectrum) dont have the political skills of an Ian Smith or a Piet Botha. These guys (and Im not talking about Bibi type likudniks, a whole different kettle of fish) have never had to exercise the responsibility of power - theyre good at planting some mobile homes on a hill, beating up some arabs, and protesting in Jerusalem. They DONT know how to run a state, and they are the LAST people who could manage to play off Pal factions against each other.

The timing would have to be carefully managed but I don't really see a whole lot of solutions in that region. Pals can't govern themselves and Jordan wants no part of them and the world (and Israel) don't want Israel to run the place. So what's left?

There are disadvantages to all courses (which ive discussed on other threads here) but the idea of a seperate state in the West Bank run by Jewish settlers is one of the worst ones.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-15 16:17|| 2008-08-15 16:17|| Front Page Top

#12 "It's an iron rule of history that peoples who can't coexist, don't."

what is coexist? Theyre "coexisting" now. Well not peacefully, to be sure, but really. I mean folks outside tend to read the news and think every israeli is cowering in their sheltered rooms 24/7. Its not pleasant in Sderot, but Sderot is a small town. I invite you to read an Israeli daily paper (in English). Or look at Israeli stuff on youtube. Plenty of focus on the economy (doing well, though fears ahead as prime markets like the US face troubles) on housing(way overpriced) on water, on traffic, on arts and culture, etc. And when its politics, well its corruption, personalities, jewish religious disputes, finances, etc as well as "Security"
And the biggest security issue by far is Iran. Day to day, unless you live in the territories, or in Sderot, the Pals arent as big a deal as you think reading the press here.

So any "solution" has to be better than "muddling through". Starting a war against the entire muslim world, one where ISrael would not have the support of the west, probably not even of the US, is hardly an appealing solution.

Posted by liberalhawk 2008-08-15 16:23|| 2008-08-15 16:23|| Front Page Top

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