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2008-03-23 Olde Tyme Religion

German Jewish leader criticizes Pope over prayer

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Posted by Fred 2008-03-23 00:00|| || Front Page|| [10 views ] Top

#1 "Jews criticized the new version because it still says they should recognize Jesus Christ as the savior of all men."

We Catholics (and Christians in general) insist on the belief in Christ as part of conversion and salvation. Its fundamental to our faith. We pray for the conversion of ALL peoples - Jews, Atheists, Agnostics, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and yes, Jews too. Jews have a special place in our faith because they were the seed from which our religion grew. We see our religion as the fulfillment of your prophecies. We acknowledge the God of Abraham, and the old covenant, and wish everyone to participate in the New Covenant established by Christ that fulfills the Abrahamic covenant and establish a broad new one to all people, Jews and Gentiles alike. So of course we hope and pray that people will convert.

And this conversion is individual, and voluntary. Unlike the Muslims we do not use swordpoint to convert. Nor do we shun people who do not wish to convert, not in the modern Catholic Church. If you do not wish to be one of us, then we do not want to force the issue.

We appeal to the reason and heart of the individual, and work with him or her throughout the conversion process, allowing them to back out at anytime prior to the actual batptism. In the normal form of adult conversion, we require months of education and study, and introspection, as well as scrutiny, before we move to complete a conversion.

As a matter of fact, we just finished with such a set of classes for RCIA, that started in September of last year.

But requesting that we do not declare Christ to be the Savior of all? That is what we believe! You want us to change a core tenet of our faith because you have the stupidity to be offended by it?

Moron. Bigot. Idiot. What you ask of us is like asking a Jew to deny that God Moses and Abraham ever existed and declaring the whole of the pentateuch to be falsehood. Its that fundamental.

Tell ya what - go work on the bigger problems first: talk to the Muslims and see if you can get them to change their book about slaughtering Jews. Seems slaughtering might be a tad more important to be concerned with than conversion. We can discuss conversion once you and the Muslims get the "kill the Jews" stuff worked out, like we Christians already have done.

Fool.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-03-23 02:05|| 2008-03-23 02:05|| Front Page Top

#2 And this conversion is individual, and voluntary.

Even in Cortez times. Even in the Cortez expedition: Diaz del Catillo, one of Mexico's conquerors say in his "History of the conquest of
New Spain" says "Only voluntary conversions are valid" (Now asking Spaniards to allow cults who between other things made massive human sacrifices, massive as in the tens of thousands victims for a single event, and allowed canibalism was another thing).

BTW, even in Inquisition times there were no forced conversions in continental times. You were free to remain a Jew... as long as it was out of Spain. The thing who was not tolerated was people
who falsely converted while still practicing Judaism or Islam in secret.

BTW, Diego Lainez, cofounder and second general (head of the order, directly under the Pope) of
the Jesuits (the more papist of any catholic order) was son of converted Jews and Tomas de Torquemada (the most well known of the inquisitor) had a coverted jewish grandmother.

Two small notes: AFAIK jesuits were rarely or never members of inquisition tribunals. That was domenican thing. So Diego Lainez cannot be accused of headingan order who prosecuted Jews.

The Spanish name for a burned thing is quemado, when the thing is feminine (Spanish and French have no neutral) it is "quemada". Thus Torquemada
looks like a shortening of "Torre quemada" (burned tower". An appropriate name for someone whose job
involved burning people.

BTW: Fourt years of witch hunt in protestant Europe: 40,000 victims. A thopusand per year.
Three centuries of Spanish inquisition: twelve thousand victims (fourty per year). Even inquisition courts were better than "justice" imparted by hysteric mobs.

Most people got far lighter sentences: eg the grand father of Saint Theresa of Avila had to walk around the city for a number of Sundays wearing a distinctive garment who identified him as a sinner. Nothing more.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-03-23 05:45|| 2008-03-23 05:45|| Front Page Top

#3 TW I hope you don't take offense but I see nothing wrong in praying for the conversion of Jews or even just as I see nothing wrong in praying for Democrats seeing the light and becoming Republicans.

Ditto for preaching Jews to convert to catholicism and Democrats to vote GOP.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-03-23 05:54|| 2008-03-23 05:54|| Front Page Top

#4 Ahah, the problems.

Posted by g(r)omgoru 2008-03-23 06:23|| 2008-03-23 06:23|| Front Page Top

#5 We see our religion as the fulfillment of your prophecies.

TW I hope you don't take offense but I see nothing wrong

We do not, OldSpook. Nor Islam, which sees itself as the true replacement of both our faiths, nor Baha'i, which sees itself as the replacement of all three. Do you pray for the conversion of all Muslims by name, too, led astray as you must think they've been by their false prophet?

JFM, it's rude. As for those who would convert me, when we lived in an inner suburb, they'd ring our doorbell starting 9 a.m. every Saturday. Now that we live in an exurb, they tend to come at dinner time. And not one who's rung my doorbell or accosted me in my front yard has known enough of Jewish prophesy and the regional and philosophical history at the time each book of the Old and New Testaments were written to give me a sound reason, besides his or her own faith, to question my own understanding of the matter.

I don't pray that Democrats become Republicans. Our country is better off when different ideas fight it out in the public square. I don't even want them to vote Republican if they believe the Democratic candidate would be better for the country. I want to challenge and be challenged until our ideas and candidates are refined and strengthened, like the progression from ore to iron to steel.

No, the Catholic prayer for conversion is not like the convert/submit/die choices offered by Islam. But it smacks mightily of claiming to fully understand God's mind on the subject. Nor, if it had been discontinued for over 40 years, was there need to reintroduce that particular prayer on this particular anniversary of the Christian god's crucifixion at the judgment a Roman governor so odious he was recalled by the emperor Nero for abuse of power.

So let's approach this differently: by what reasoning does this most erudite and subtle of popes justify decreeing this prayer be resurrected now, after more than a generation?

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-03-23 15:47|| 2008-03-23 15:47|| Front Page Top

#6 tw, I stopped having problems with people ringing my doorbell wanting to witness to me when I started offering them a beer or a glass of wine. I have no problem with people letting their lives be a witness to their faith but I do not want people to try to convert me. I do not pray in public. What I have to say to God is between God and me. When asked how they should pray didn't Yeshua say, "get ye in a closet" ? When Yeshua told the parable of the poor sinner and the rich man praying in the Temple the poor man went to a corner to be by himself.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2008-03-23 15:54|| 2008-03-23 15:54|| Front Page Top

#7 And there were, too, forced conversions. If I recall, the last Jewish child taken by the Catholics as their own, because his nanny had secretly baptized him, was still alive and a monk in Rome when Mussolini took office. I don't think, JFM, that you would contend a toddler had voluntarily chosen? Tortures, too, as many Jews were only allowed to leave Spain, and later Portugal, after being tortured to reveal the treasure they were firmly believed to have hidden.

Were they the only ones? No, of course not. By law in Arab Muslim countries, the orphans of Jewish or Christian families are considered Muslim, and given for adoption to Muslim families, a much more common situation than secret baptism by maids. Thus an Egyptian friend of mine was adopted at birth by his uncle. He was grateful for that custom when he was orphaned at 14. Even yet in Egypt Coptic children are taken when the father dies.

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-03-23 16:04|| 2008-03-23 16:04|| Front Page Top

#8 Deacon Blues, I assign homework -- books to read and questions to ask their minister (no Catholic has ever proselytized to me), that they might better understand what they're trying to sell. Besides, I figure at that point they'll go home for the night, and leave my neighbors in peace.

Posted by trailing wife ">trailing wife 2008-03-23 19:53|| 2008-03-23 19:53|| Front Page Top

#9 TW. People tortured in order to force them to tell where was the treasure that was not about conversion
and probably not Church's action or even initiative. You can see it as a case of jesuitry/hipocrisy but the Church didn't execute people: those found guilty
were handed to the King's justice. I think but I am not sure that same applied to tortures. Anyway I am not and was not justifying the expulsion of
Spanish Jews.

About Spanish antisemitism in that age. The Arab invasion had succeeded due to betrayals in Christian ranks. Legend says it was a Count Julian whose daughter had been raped by the King.
However it is told that after the battle and the death of the King it was Jews who opened the doors of Toledo (the Visigothic Kings had persecuted them. BTW they also had persecuted Catholics) to the invaders. Christians remembered that (true or false), remembered that it took eight centuries to liberate Spain and preferred to forget that
the main treason had risen from their ranks.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-03-23 20:02|| 2008-03-23 20:02|| Front Page Top

#10 TW. Of course I don't consider secretly baptizing a toddler as a legitimate conversion.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2008-03-23 20:27|| 2008-03-23 20:27|| Front Page Top

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