Article

2008-02-28 Science & Technology

Marines Call New Body Armor Heavy, Impractical

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Posted by GolfBravoUSMC 2008-02-28 00:00|| || Front Page|| [8 views ] Top

#1 Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway wants to know who authorized the costly purchase

A telling, but not surprising admission. Followed the field testing closely did he?

Posted by Besoeker 2008-02-28 00:24|| 2008-02-28 00:24|| Front Page Top

#2 Now can they start working with the dragonskin armor? I've heard it may have a problem with the heat, but with some concerted effort, if it is a problem, I'll bet they can fix it.

Posted by gorb 2008-02-28 03:07|| 2008-02-28 03:07|| Front Page Top

#3 Michael Yon doesn't like the Dragonskin (but RB's very own Old Spook does, IIRC), and as far as the heat and assorted issues go, it is my understanding from Defense review and similar website this was mainly the DOD rigging the test and muddying the water for its own reasons.
Still, even if the Dragonskin itself is not the panacea, I can't help to wonder why the reasoning that went into its conception is not used to steer modern body armor design in other directions, getting inspiration from the very long tradition of ancient armors to get better mobility, better weight distribution, rather than sticking trauma plates in the front and back. Anyway, sooner or later, new materials will allow improved protection and/or weight reduction, so general design should make benefit of this.

Posted by anonymous5089 2008-02-28 03:23|| 2008-02-28 03:23|| Front Page Top

#4 That Navy SEAL guy on the Military Channel went out and played with some Dragonskin. He must have shot it 50 times and it didn't penetrate. Some of it was 7.62mm! Then he got the bright idea of using the same shot-up armor and setting it up over a grenade to see if it could absorb a blast if someone had to throw themselves on a grenade. It did. Of course, there's no way on earth it would be good for anything but a souvenier after that, but I defy anything else to even come close to that level of performance. The ceramic stuff would crack after the first round or two and isn't flexible at all. IIRC, he had the head of LA SWAT there and he was absolutely floored by the stuff.

Why didn't Michael Yon like it? I understood he wore Dragonskin over there quite a bit. Am I wrong? Any other problems with the Dragonskin? Any other armor out there that is any kind of contender?

Posted by gorb 2008-02-28 06:58|| 2008-02-28 06:58|| Front Page Top

#5 That is the problem with armor, it slows you down. The slower you are, the more you become a target. I wouldn't mind really heavy armor if I was at a stationary guard post and snipers were around, but for all other purposes I would not wear armor.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2008-02-28 07:32|| 2008-02-28 07:32|| Front Page Top

#6 The Pentagon and Marine Corps authorized the purchase of 84,000 bulletproof vests in 2006 that not only are too heavy but are so impractical that some U.S. Marines are asking for their old vests back so they can remain agile enough to fight.

Someone is skipping over all the hysterics performed by the anti-war Copperhead Donks and their lapdogs in the MSM about body armor back then which was never really about about the grunt but only meant to blister Bush. [Governor William J. Le Petomane: We've gotta protect our phoney baloney jobs, gentlemen! - Blazing Saddles]

That is the problem with armor, it slows you down

As the French nobility found out at Argincourt.

Posted by Procopius2k 2008-02-28 07:58|| 2008-02-28 07:58|| Front Page Top

#7 Marine Commandant Gen. James Conway wants to know who authorized the costly purchase

A telling, but not surprising admission. Followed the field testing closely did he?>

Conway wasn't Commandant when this purchase was authorized. He was running J3 - ops.

Conway's no desk warrior. He was a combatant commander twice in Iraq - in the initial assault and runup to Baghdad and in Anbar at Fallujah - and before that in Desert Storm and before that off of Lebanon during the Beirut bombing in 83.

Posted by lotp 2008-02-28 08:23|| 2008-02-28 08:23|| Front Page Top

#8 The extra weight comes from the side, deltoid and throat armor. I believe the new chest and back SAPI plates actually weight a bit less. Those (and the groin plate) can be removed, but higher ups may not allow it due to possible bad press. You can't defeat Monday Morning quarterbacks.

United States Marine Corps forensic study concluded that the Interceptor OTV body armor system was inadequate, noting that "as many as 42% of the Marine casualties who died from isolated torso injuries could have been prevented with improved protection in the areas surrounding the plated areas of the vest. Nearly 23% might have benefited from protection along the mid-axillary line of the lateral chest. Another 15% died from impacts through the unprotected shoulder and upper arm ...".

By late 2005 Marine Corps Systems Command was fielding both the Enhanced SAPI plate, with a greater degree of ballistic protection, and a new Interceptor system with additional SAPI plates to protect the sides of the torso from small arms fire. Four levels of add-on armor are now available for the Interceptor that offer the same degree of ballistic protection as the OTV for extremities, including the neck, shoulders, arms, groin and legs. The new armor can be configured for specific mission requirements and covers up to 75 percent of the body with four levels of add-on armor with ballistic protection for extremities, including the neck, shoulders, arms, groin and legs.

Posted by ed 2008-02-28 08:45|| 2008-02-28 08:45|| Front Page Top

#9 There has never been, and there will probably never be, armor that is good in all times and all places.

Most people think that traditional metal armor's day ended with the advent of the gun, but that is not entirely true. It ended with the advent of the epee. Someone skilled in its use could poke through every joint in armor so fast that it was no contest.

From that point, it was far more desirable to have no armor, but wear tightly woven garments, that while they couldn't stop a poke, could reduce a slash, a potentially far more dangerous wound.

In turn, this was what opened up the development of the hand gun and musket.

As far as the US military is concerned, it needs three different types of armor. Offensive, defensive and casual.

Offensive must be light, and "forward oriented", and should include things like face and rifle mounted shields. Defensive is much heavier, and designed to resist the enemies weapons. Casual is light, and meant for rear areas where there is still risk of indirect enemy fire.

Posted by Anonymoose 2008-02-28 09:49|| 2008-02-28 09:49|| Front Page Top

#10 I like DS, but only for occasional wear.

Police and other usage is usually 12 hours or so at the most, then its hung up, cleaned and aired out in a cool armory or air conditioned home.

I've worn it 48 hours at a time, but not in hot conditions (it was autumn and winter).

What I gather is that its really not as durable as it needs to be for military use, and there are some quality issues since they ramped production.

From ops guys in the field, extended wear in rough conditions (72+ hours straight, in and out of water and heat) after a dozen or more cycles tends to wear it out (loose scales, seams loosening, etc). In terms of the field, that means after a couple months of typical combat usage you will start to see problems.

So I can understand where DoD had some issues, aside from the personal animus some pentagon deskbound paper pushing REMF had of being ticky-tack with the testing, and not helping them correct their problems like they do with normal contractors. Usually if there is a no-go, they will tell them why, and usually point out the problem and give them ideas on how to fix it. The testing guys are good like that on a lot of things, because they have seen a lot of stuff and have insight into failures and how to fix them. They did not extend that courtesy to the DS guys from what was told.

Bottom line:

Making a couple thousand pieces of body armor a year for police, SoF and private purchase is one thing, making a hundred thousand of them quickly for military use is something different, and lack of quality processes and experience will get you every time when you try to scale up.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-02-28 10:29|| 2008-02-28 10:29|| Front Page Top

#11 Why didn't Michael Yon like it? I understood he wore Dragonskin over there quite a bit. Am I wrong?

He actually had a "stunt" to express his dislike of it :
For Sale: Dragon Skin

See also how this ebay sell made a bit of a stir (I take this was the same one), but since Yon is an embedded freelance reporter, and not a soldier selling gvt issues, this was most probably much ado about nothing.

Also :
Pinnacle Armor Files Federal Lawsuit Against DOJ and NIJ: The Plot Thickens...
U.S. Army Stops Independent Testing of Interceptor Body Armor (UPDATE 1)
Why the U.S. Army Acquisition Mafia Fears Side-By-Side Body Armor Testing

Again, I simply cannot judge who's in the right, and who is not, but here are the links anyway, if you can find something useful from them.

Posted by anonymous5089 2008-02-28 10:44|| 2008-02-28 10:44|| Front Page Top

#12 Gorb, I could say more about what-to-do to fix dragon skin, but I don't have time:

Just check these two links:

Link1.

(So you can figure out who Allen Bain is)

AND:

http://www.evolutionarmor.com/index.html.

(in particular, http://www.evolutionarmor.com/Rifletile.htm.)

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-28 10:46|| 2008-02-28 10:46|| Front Page Top

#13 Oh hell, could someone fix that top link? I didn't realize the link was that long when I pasted it in.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-28 10:48|| 2008-02-28 10:48|| Front Page Top

#14 Abdominal: I'm so used to tinyurl.com that I catch myself using it as an original source link, which makes the mods blue and sad. However, inline text it's no problem.

Fortunately my photobucket links are not so long as to create a margin problem.

Posted by Anonymoose 2008-02-28 12:37|| 2008-02-28 12:37|| Front Page Top

#15 Telling remark from an article on the testing:

"here were reportedly many penetrations on various environmentally conditioned vest units."

And there you have it - just what I was talking about above. Also there are some remarks about bullet angles being designed to specifically hit it at its weakest point, but to get there with DS requires someone to be shooting you from underneath and at a 30-45 degree angle from the straight down vertical. If you are taking shots like that, you are more likely to catch a round in your feet or ass. So I do question the validity/utility of that particular test.

Posted by OldSpook 2008-02-28 16:58|| 2008-02-28 16:58|| Front Page Top

#16 IIRC two problems with the dragonskin were:
1) Contamination with oil weakened the plates.
2) Extended exposure to heat made the plates brittle.

Al

Posted by Frozen Al 2008-02-28 17:00|| 2008-02-28 17:00|| Front Page Top

#17 I understood from the article on the rifle plates that the weakest point was from above at that angle from the vertical.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-28 17:26|| 2008-02-28 17:26|| Front Page Top

#18 Frozen Al: Not the plates _themselves_.

It's more a matter of the adhesive attaching the plates and keeping them in place, and the fabric they used itself.

OS: I think you're looking at the diagram wrong. I could be mistaken, but I think in the diagram on the third link I posted, right is towards the top of the vest, not the bottom.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-28 17:32|| 2008-02-28 17:32|| Front Page Top

#19 OOPS, I didn't mean to post the same idea twice. I don't know why it didn't show up the first time.

I guess I'm a hominid of very little brain today.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-28 17:35|| 2008-02-28 17:35|| Front Page Top

#20 Thanks, Abdominal!

Posted by gorb 2008-02-28 18:16|| 2008-02-28 18:16|| Front Page Top

#21 Light armor? Why not titanium and be done with it.

Posted by Icerigger">Icerigger 2008-02-28 20:09|| 2008-02-28 20:09|| Front Page Top

#22 The first generation of dragonskin was titanium, and it was pretty heavy. They then went to ceramic, which is lighter than titanium for a given level of protection.

Posted by Abdominal Snowman 2008-02-28 22:26|| 2008-02-28 22:26|| Front Page Top

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