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2007-05-18 Home Front: Politix

US senators strike deal on immigration overhaul

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Posted by Steve White 2007-05-18 00:00|| || Front Page|| [2 views ] Top

#1 Details, details, details, ...enforce details...uh..well, look at the record! NOT

Posted by Phineter Thraviger 2007-05-18 00:10|| 2007-05-18 00:10|| Front Page Top

#2 --The proposal would limit family-based migration to immediate family members and establish a merit-based system by which future migrants could earn points for skills, education, understanding of English and family ties.--

Kyl was on 1 channel saying lookie what we did and Reid and Pelosi on another saying we're changing that?????

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-05-18 00:16|| 2007-05-18 00:16|| Front Page Top

#3 Joe nailed it again on the last thread from yesterday. Selling out is not good, regardless of the price.

Posted by Phineter Thraviger 2007-05-18 00:19|| 2007-05-18 00:19|| Front Page Top

#4 Paying for 2 kids tuition I really do no appreciate free college for illegals.
This on top of TIF districts for new apt complexes with no school tax for 11 years - meaning those of us who own have to pay for imported kids...

On top of Eminent Domain for rich real estate developers...

On top of all no jobs for engr professionals over 45 so they fill the niches with scabs on H1B visas that render us competing against effective slaves...

I mean really... When will Marie A. come out and ask us to just eat cake?

Posted by 3dc 2007-05-18 00:34|| 2007-05-18 00:34|| Front Page Top

#5 I'm really tired of all the special privileges afforded the illegals. Not only are they not deported, we give them everything. Who will sustain all this welfare? We can't keep it up.
Here is another bill that may come into view here in Colorado making it a snap for illegals to obtain a Colorado Driver's License and with that be able to vote. To hell with this new legislation, who needs it with this;
link
"foreign documents as proof of citizenship in obtaining a Colorado drivers license" that's one of the 'proofs', you've got to be kidding me. We are the laughing stock.

I do hope that pledging allegiance to America is a big part of it, and embracing what America stands for.

Posted by Jan 2007-05-18 01:45|| 2007-05-18 01:45|| Front Page Top

#6 The Honorable Linda T. Sanchez
California's 39th congressional district
http://www.lindasanchez.house.gov/index.cfm?section=contact
562-860-5050
202-225-6676

The Honorable Barbara Boxer
California Senator
http://boxer.senate.gov/contact/email/policy.cfm
202-224-3553
213-894-5000

The Honorable Dianne Feinstein
California Senator
http://feinstein.senate.gov/email.html
202-224-3841
310-914-7300

RE: Funding the war in Iraq and the War on Terrorism comes first

The most important thing congress should do is support our troops and the War on Terrorism.

Until the War on Terrorism is won
all other issues like the environment and illegal immigration can wait.

The most important is getting Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles to our forces in Iraq, ASAP, at any cost.

I blame Democrats for not supporting our troops at war.
Our soldiers are dieing in Iraq at the hand of terrorists because the Democrats don't care.

While three of our soldiers are being tortured by al-Qaida terrorists,
and 4,000 of our fellow troops are trying to find and free them,
congress is in closed door session negotiating blanket amnesty and dual citizenship for millions of illegal alliens
and negotiating how to keep the border open for more illegals and terrorists.

Why not lead off a law-making session with a short prayer for our beloved soldiers?

"The fairness doctrine" is the Democrats attemp to impose sharia like laws on our free society.
We understand it to be the Democrats means of attempting to squelch opposing views and open debate.
We will not be cowed by Air America, Democrat values or the lack thereof.

If the Democrats have any grain of truth left in them
they will support the war on terror
or shrink back into irrelevance.

Posted by kristine kid 2007-05-18 01:56|| 2007-05-18 01:56|| Front Page Top

#7 Problem is BigLizards is wrong. That 375 replaces the 700 form my reading of the fragment I got on that part.

In other words they are cutting the fence in half. And there is still no FUNDING for it, nor any devices to prevent it from being held up in lawsuits indefinitely (Environmentalists, civil rights, wildlife, etc).

Posted by OldSpook 2007-05-18 02:34|| 2007-05-18 02:34|| Front Page Top

#8 And Daffyyd is a kissass when it comes to RNC policy, liek his mentor Hugh Hewitt. He's also not a conservative. He's more like a Rockefeller Country Club Republican in his treatment of this. I've been banned there for challenging him, so he;s pretty thin skinned.

Distrust immediately anything you read there.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-05-18 02:37|| 2007-05-18 02:37|| Front Page Top

#9 Steve, not that I'm an expert on it, but it seems you don't follow this issue too closely. There hasn't been the capacity, much less the will, to administer even a tiny portion of the amnesty program outlined here in decades (if there ever were). Talk to anyone with a pulse from the relevant federal agencies.

And the "round-up" thing is the worst sort of tired canard (cue up image of duck barely attaining flight ...). You nuke the incentives (make illegals ineligible for benefits, much less privileges, start securing the border, scare business with some jail terms and worse), and actually deport as many as you efficiently can (not too hard to figure out max-impact targets and methods or locations), and you'd see dramatic and rapid change.

We couldn't deploy INF systems in Europe, and we certainly couldn't put US troops in Saudi Arabia, and we couldn't imagine invading Iraq and taking Baghdad, and you can't reform welfare, and .... this is one of those "impossible" things that would be quite easy.

As it is, I now regard laws as something to be obeyed if I feel like it. Took a lot to drag me to that spot, but I made it (I certainly now regard all immigration/customs laws as meaningless, something to be gamed and violated). And I certainly will advise several friends who have foreign spouses-to-be in the picture to get them here quick and over-stay their visas, depending on what happens with the law.

Abandoning rule of law for convenience, or cowardice, will have its consequences.

Posted by Verlaine 2007-05-18 02:53|| 2007-05-18 02:53|| Front Page Top

#10 The USA will be the equivalent of a third world country in under 20 years with this approach. The Pubs have kissed off US national sovereignty.

Next stop: "compromise" on gun control.

Posted by SR-71 2007-05-18 06:26|| 2007-05-18 06:26|| Front Page Top

#11 With family reunification, that should clear the majority of the population out of Mexico.

Posted by ed 2007-05-18 07:08|| 2007-05-18 07:08|| Front Page Top

#12 Either we create a southern border by erecting the entire proposed fence or we will merge with Mexico, paramilitary drug gangs and all.

As for this immigration reform proposal, I could never support it until I see the entire fence built, a computerized validation system in place for employers and the financial benefits for illegal immigrants entirely eliminated.

Posted by Knuckles Thromoling6063 2007-05-18 07:40|| 2007-05-18 07:40|| Front Page Top

#13 The fence and the new enforcement provisions are just more mealy-mouthed lip service like we got with the 1986 amnesty bill. The existing laws would have been more than adequate to end the invasion if the will had existed to enforce them. How will new laws and provisions make any difference?

Fact is, El Presidente Jorge Arbusto and his Demonrat accomplices have sold this country out and signed the death warrant of the United States as a great nation, and perhaps as a nation at all.

I don't think the Chamber of Commerce fatcats and other immigration traitors really have any inkling of the level of anger this has generated in the rank and file.

They probably figure they can drag out gay marriage or some platitudes about family values, or some other religious right bullshit, and we will fail to notice the third-world hordes and their openly racist leadership taking over our jobs, our schools, our streets, and the government itself.

With amnesty in place, the Latino racists will try to institutionalize the kind of perferences and favortism that already exist wherever they are in charge.
They and their Fatcat/Moonbat enablers will press hard on the "hate-speech" and "fairness doctrine" fronts in an effort to criminalize all opposition.
This combination of RINO fatcats and leftist vermin, btw, is an alliance made in Hell, the twenty-first century's version of the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact of 1939. Its goal is the same, the dismemberment and subjugation of an independent country. In some ways the present deal with Satan is worse. It wasn't the Polish leadership itself that sold out its own country to foreign invaders, but that is what Bush and his fellow invasion instigators have done.

The RINO fatcats and the loathesome 'rats are oblivious to what the masses think or believe, as long as the depraved media cults love them and the donations roll in from cheap-labor profiteers and liberal foundations, but that does not mean the people have lost their will altogether.

Where there is no recourse, there is revolution.

No later than halfway through President Hillary Clinton's term, at the latest, we will have literal civil war in this country.

It may come sooner if African-Americans in Los Angeles in particular realize that they have sold down the river just as surely as their ancestors were in slave times. Legal immigrants, especially those who have paid through the nose and waited years to get in, are also furious at this, yet their attitudes barely register on the political- media radar screen.

Something else to think about: The sudden infusion of twenty million ignorant, pliable, and therefore mostly leftist voters could easily spell the end of US support for Israel.

Forget Pakistani nuclear weapons, what happens to OUR nuclear weapons when this dark age alliance of greed and ignorance effectively destroys our Constitution and national sovereignty?

Next Stop for the Arbusto gang: "Compromise" on gun control.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2007-05-18 07:53|| 2007-05-18 07:53|| Front Page Top

#14 Any pol who supports a temporary worker program is really saying that his loyalty is to Mexican workers and cheap labor, not to Americans.

Who'da thunk the coming job flight would be the one thing which causes our estranged Democratic and Republican electorates to come together again. A smart pol would jump on this. I guess Mitt Romney has. There is no downside in him doing so-it may well be law by then-but it has made me take a second look at voting for him in 2008. At least his goal is not to sacrifice the American workforce.

Posted by Jules 2007-05-18 08:10|| 2007-05-18 08:10|| Front Page Top

#15 No 'immigration reform' in Washington will solve the fundamental social economic problems created by the Mexican ruling caste. They have absolutely no incentive to alter business as usual to dump their uneducated, unskilled, unwanted masses on the US to avoid real reform, which they've given lip service to for over three decades. Communist China which doesn't have a border to ship its masses across has chosen real reforms which have brought real opportunity for their people in less than ten years than what the corrupt family cartels in Mexico will ever commit to.

This act solves nothing other than to alienate the people of the US from their government through the betrayal of what is America. One more day closer to Sulla.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-05-18 08:13|| 2007-05-18 08:13|| Front Page Top

#16 I just wrote Senator Dorgan to thank him for moving to strike the temporary guest worker program and I urge you to do the same. From his website:

(WASHINGTON, D.C.) --- U.S. Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) said Thursday he will offer an amendment to strike the guest worker provision that apparently will be included in the immigration legislation announced earlier in the day. The provision says the number of guest worker visas each year would be limited to 400,000, but that cap would be increased depending on demand.

"The guest worker program would bring millions of new immigrants over a period of years to take jobs in sectors of our economy like construction, manufacturing, and transportation. It is just a fiction that these are jobs Americans aren't willing to do -- the fact is that the overwhelming majority of these jobs are currently done by Americans. The main reason that big corporations want a guest worker program is that it will drive down U.S. wages," Dorgan said.

"America's workers have enough downward pressure on their wages because of unfair trade deals and corporate outsourcing of millions of jobs every year. The last thing they need now is to have an inflow of millions of more immigrants competing for their jobs at substandard wages.

"We already have a system that allows for legal immigration under a quota system. It needs to be respected. Beyond that, what we really need is to enforce our borders. The last thing we need is a guest worker program that pretends to prevent future illegal immigration by just declaring it legal."

Write him at:
senator@dorgan.senate.gov

Posted by Jules 2007-05-18 08:40|| 2007-05-18 08:40|| Front Page Top

#17 P2K,

The first time a saw you mention Sulla, I had one of those, "No kidding, aint that the truth" reactions. Slowly, each time I saw you reference him I started to really come around to it. After seeing it this time, I'm a full fledged convert.

Someday, he's comin.

Posted by Mike N. 2007-05-18 08:43|| 2007-05-18 08:43|| Front Page Top

#18 One thing "we" (meaning private activists, not the disgraced Arbusto regime or its Rodent successors) might want to examine is the possibility of helping Mexican revolutionaries who would close the border in return for our assistance.
I am not sure who these would be or how we could guarantee that they would keep their word, but it does not seem that these things would be impossible on their face.
The support the US provided to Benito Juarez during his struggle against the French and their toadies paid huge dividends for the US for the remainder of the 19th century.
Radical reform in Mexico is certainly a major key to ending this disastrous situation but we have to begin at home.
At the very least, everyone involved in the Bush immigration sell-out must be expelled from public office at the first opportunity.
The Bush wing of the GOP is completely discredited and it will be interesting to see who picks up the pieces on the right.

Posted by Atomic Conspiracy 2007-05-18 08:50|| 2007-05-18 08:50|| Front Page Top

#19 steve I tend to agree with what youve written, and would also like to see more details.

I think one of the more difficult points is the question of favoring the trained over the untrained. That certainly makes them more socially assimilable. And it clearly adds more to US GDP. OTOH, it particularly hurts certain members of the lower middle and middle middle class in the US, depending on what skill sets come in. The unskilled are at least doing work that few Americans would take at wages that make the work viable. The skilled really ARE hurting some Americans pocketbooks, even as they improve the lot of upper middle class and wealthy Americans. And of course it doesnt help the economies of developing countries if we take their most skilled (countries like India, with a glut of grads, being the exception)

Expect that to be a very divisive issue.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-05-18 09:48|| 2007-05-18 09:48|| Front Page Top

#20 Let's just get it over with and annex Mexico.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-05-18 10:07|| 2007-05-18 10:07|| Front Page Top

#21 You nuke the incentives (make illegals ineligible for benefits, much less privileges, start securing the border, scare business with some jail terms and worse), and actually deport as many as you efficiently can (not too hard to figure out max-impact targets and methods or locations), and you'd see dramatic and rapid change.

Verlaine, Seems like the way to go. I'm just afraid no one in Washington has the will to defend this country. We have gone from a notion of the rule of law to capitulation to the group making the biggest noise. If Verlaine's approach is taken, the illegals will not be so willing to come to the U.S. People will not be hiring illegals. We have created a gravy train for illegals that rapidly we won't be able to afford.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-05-18 10:29|| 2007-05-18 10:29|| Front Page Top

#22 Let's just get it over with and annex Mexico.

Now there's an interesting idea ...

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-05-18 10:44|| 2007-05-18 10:44|| Front Page Top

#23 where's the "smells like bull shit" pic?

Signed,

El Capitán América

Posted by Captain America 2007-05-18 11:08|| 2007-05-18 11:08|| Front Page Top

#24 The heat needs to be put on this band of anti-American employers; from Fox News:

" a group of Colorado restaurants, hotels and landscape businesses are banding together to urge Congress to change immigration laws, including increasing the number of foreign workers brought in on temporary visas.

The new group -- Colorado Employers for Immigration Reform -- is similar to ones that have been established in Texas, Arizona and Florida. Members say they're unable to find enough Americans interested in the temporary, labor-intensive jobs their industries depend on."

Posted by Jules 2007-05-18 11:10|| 2007-05-18 11:10|| Front Page Top

#25 Members say they're unable to find enough Americans interested in the temporary, labor-intensive jobs their industries depend on."

I simply do not believe this.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-05-18 11:31|| 2007-05-18 11:31|| Front Page Top

#26 You know, these farm-work employers could have taken a different track to get American workers. I bet if they had collaborated with more thoughtful, fiscally responsible and nationally loyal congressmen, they could have fashioned together a farm-worker employment program/welfare reduction program. But then, they would have to pay a decent living wage, so instead they bring in 2nd and 3rd world workers who will work for pittance and house 3 or 4 families to an apartment to make that wage livable.. Do these business owners and politicians imagine their motives are not transparent and do they imagine they can escape being held accountable by the American people?

I actually think it would be a good thing for more Americans to understand when and how to seed and nurture and harvest crops. That knowledge is slipping away from most of our populace.

Posted by Jules 2007-05-18 12:03|| 2007-05-18 12:03|| Front Page Top

#27 Members say they're unable to find enough Americans interested in the temporary, labor-intensive jobs their industries depend on."

I simply do not believe this.

It's called supply and demand. Till the employers raise wages sufficiently to attract employees, they'll keep using this excuse. Under a real market system, that's why there is no need for minimum wage. However, since the businessmen collude with the pols of both stripes to make sure that the labor market is in practice unlimited as exhibited by this very action, there is no need to raise wages or substitute technology to do the job.

If the job is that important, the market will support the consequential raise in prices correlated to increase in wages. If the product or service isn't that important, it'll disappear.

That's why in the end this hurts American minorities and others with limited skill sets. It artificially keeps wages down at the same time shifting costs [education, welfare, medical] upon the public and, given the resources are limited, decreasing the availability and access to those same 'minorities'. Watch the usual suspects who claim to be the leaders of those 'minority' communities support this act which throws their own constituency under the bus.

Posted by Procopius2k 2007-05-18 12:30|| 2007-05-18 12:30|| Front Page Top

#28 Listening to Rush, last report is the phones are 'going nuts' at the capitol.
Keep up the assault, show no quarter.
Rush calls it the Comprehensive Destroy the Republican Party Bill of 2007. He gets it. After the party is gone, the war retreat will become effective, and the second ammendment will be repealed. Kiss your asses goodby.

Posted by wxjames 2007-05-18 13:11|| 2007-05-18 13:11|| Front Page Top

#29 A little comparison on just how critical this amnesty bill is:
Scenario 1; Congress fails to fund war effort, troops withdraw, in a few years, terrorism becomes common in the streets of American cities.
Result, people take action and eliminate Islam.
Scenario 2; Congress passes a huge tax increase, economy falls on it's face, tax revolts begin. Result, the republican party retrieves power and fixes tax code.
Scenario 3; This amnesty bill passes, illegals are immediately legal, Social Security collapses, identity theft out of control, borders overrun.
Result, America can never recover...all is lost.

Posted by wxjames 2007-05-18 13:29|| 2007-05-18 13:29|| Front Page Top

#30 So raising the minimum wage was a good thing? If it went still higher, all the employees would be legal?

I don't think I've heard that here before.

Posted by Bobby 2007-05-18 13:30|| 2007-05-18 13:30|| Front Page Top

#31 US Amnesties For Illegal Aliens
Until 1986, the United States had never forgiven the act of illegal immigration in other than individual cases and had never rewarded large numbers of illegal aliens with the opportunity for U.S. citizenship.

Congress has passed 7 amnesties for illegal aliens, starting in 1986.

1. Immigration and Reform Control Act (IRCA), 1986: A blanket amnesty for some 2.7 million illegal aliens

2. Section 245(i) Amnesty, 1994: A temporary rolling amnesty for 578,000 illegal aliens

3. Section 245(i) Extension Amnesty, 1997: An extension of the rolling amnesty created in 1994

4. Nicaraguan Adjustment and Central American Relief Act (NACARA) Amnesty, 1997: An amnesty for close to one million illegal aliens from Central America

5. Haitian Refugee Immigration Fairness Act Amnesty (HRIFA), 1998: An amnesty for 125,000 illegal aliens from Haiti

6. Late Amnesty, 2000: An amnesty for some illegal aliens who claim they should have been amnestied under the 1986 IRCA amnesty, an estimated 400,000 illegal aliens

7. LIFE Act Amnesty, 2000: A reinstatement of the rolling Section 245(i) amnesty, an estimated 900,000 illegal aliens

Illegal alien amnesties #2-7 were a complete surprise to me.

Posted by ed 2007-05-18 13:48|| 2007-05-18 13:48|| Front Page Top

#32 "Congress should coalesce behind sweeping new compromise immigration legislation despite steep political obstacles because opportunities to confront the problem head-on are rare", Sen. Edward Kennedy said Friday.
In other words, suck it up and take your medicine 'cause we ain't gonna do nuthin. We're scared shitless of the Latino voteand besides, we need the Democratic voters.
12 million new citizens the vast majority of whom will vote Democrat will be the end of the Republican Party. We will have a one-party system. This is an earth-shattering event in terms of voting demographics. If this passes the Republicans will have signed the death warrant of their party.

Posted by Deacon Blues">Deacon Blues 2007-05-18 14:48|| 2007-05-18 14:48|| Front Page Top

#33 I am just so pissed right now it is making me surly to the wife and kids. And its not just this piece of trash either. Cripes the solution to this problem is obvious...take away the demand by putting the heat on the employers and making sure that NO benefits can be received and they won't come here.

But it is more than this. I read in the WSJ about how the deal with NKOR is just going sideways (surprise, surprise), I see our lack of resolve in Iraq or doing much of anything truly decisive anywhere against the islamonuts, I see the friggin dems being well nigh traitorous and the pubs following closely behind. It all makes me very worried for our future as a country.

Posted by remoteman 2007-05-18 15:18|| 2007-05-18 15:18|| Front Page Top

#34 (1) Joint Congress totally fails it.
(2) Executive Branch totally fails it.
(3) We are screwed.

Posted by Sock Puppet of Doom 2007-05-18 15:28|| www.sockpuppetofdoom.com]">[www.sockpuppetofdoom.com] 2007-05-18 15:28|| Front Page Top

#35 Well, folks, as much a I rant and rave about this issue the fact is I really gave up on it a long time ago. My problem now is convincing my wife that we need to leave California because it's about to go right down the toilet. I don't know about Texas, Arizona or Massachusetts but Bush and these senators have to be awfully damned ignorant not to know what they've done to my state.

Posted by Ebbang Uluque6305 2007-05-18 16:14|| 2007-05-18 16:14|| Front Page Top

#36 Fjordman wrote that the movie biz wants to move out of LA cos it's getting to be 3rd world-like.

The true test of our movie elite is what will they do?

They'll move all their platitudes for naught.

Posted by anonymous2u 2007-05-18 16:46|| 2007-05-18 16:46|| Front Page Top

#37 A foundation repair company owned by a white American business man just finished repairing a foundation of a white home owner. I was there working on putting in a new floor for the homeowner.

The greedy white business man hired a bunch of illegal alliens to do the work under his supervision for nothing, also knowing that after the job, he could cut the workers immediately until the next job. What a DEAL.

Except that the next day, one of the illegals, who could not speak a lick of English, stopped by the house to try to sell us a whole assortment of tools he just stole from the white business man for pennies on the dollar. No worries, the greedy white business man could get in more trouble for hiring illegals than the illegals who just stole from him.

Plus, as soon as these illegals get amnesty, now that they know how to do the leveling, they will just under bid white boy on every future job and put him out of business.

Posted by Lampedusa Glaimble2526 2007-05-18 17:00|| 2007-05-18 17:00|| Front Page Top

#38 The American citizens and taxpayers, the rule of law, and the Republican Party are the losers with this bill. The existing lower and middle classes are systematically being destroyed in this country.

Posted by JohnQC 2007-05-18 17:52|| 2007-05-18 17:52|| Front Page Top

#39 Our government appears to be totally owned!

It is no longer of by and for the people rather it is emulating the EU as a Nanny state that just knows better.

Jerks I call them.

Posted by 3dc 2007-05-18 18:38|| 2007-05-18 18:38|| Front Page Top

#40 Looks like if we make enough noise they may actually hear us. Tony Snow has been catching crap all day long - and hes a smart guy, if anyone can cut through the fog in W's head, and his bubble of insiders in the Potemkin village known as the White House, it would be Tony Snow.

Posted by OldSpook 2007-05-18 19:49|| 2007-05-18 19:49|| Front Page Top

#41 In the long run, we're going to let in someone who's going to blow up a large piece of US real estate. The donkeys and the elerants are going to blame it on something else, but the majority of the American people are going to know it was the total abrogation of responsibility in Washington, and start going after politicians. Once they've finished with the pols, they're going to go after recognizable groups. Mexican-Americans are going to be one such recognizable group. It's going to get VERY ugly, very fast. The people to blame are the fat cats and pols in Washington, New York, Boston, Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, Dallas, Houston, Lost Angeles, San Fransisco, Phoenix, Seattle, and elsewhere that spent the money to get this passed. May they be cursed forever in all they do. May their lives become a worse hell than the most destitute beggar in Calcutta. May hell freeze over before anyone offers them a helping hand.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-05-18 21:13|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-05-18 21:13|| Front Page Top

#42 I remember when Tony Snow on his talk show was mulling over the possibility of being the WH press secretary. What a mistake that was! Trying to communicate what the President, et al were trying to say.

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2007-05-18 21:22|| 2007-05-18 21:22|| Front Page Top

23:47 Stop the madness
23:37 DMFD
23:23 JosephMendiola
23:15 Mike N.
23:15 JosephMendiola
23:13 USN, ret.
23:02 Zenster
23:01 Natural Law
22:58 Seafarious
22:55 Zenster
22:54 DMFD
22:54 Phineter Thraviger
22:52 Mike N.
22:50 Zenster
22:49 gromgoru
22:42 Mike N.
22:31 JosephMendiola
22:29 Lampedusa Glaimble2526
22:22 JosephMendiola
22:17 JosephMendiola
22:11 JosephMendiola
22:08 JosephMendiola
21:58 trailing wife
21:56 JosephMendiola