Article

2007-02-08 Israel-Palestine-Jordan

Israeli Arabs Call on Israel to Shed Jewish Identity

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Posted by PlanetDan 2007-02-08 08:21|| || Front Page|| [7 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "And we want Sharia for everybody."

Posted by Anonymoose 2007-02-08 10:25|| 2007-02-08 10:25|| Front Page Top

#2 There are always people like ~~Herr~~ Mr. Dichter around, aren't there.

Posted by Steve White">Steve White 2007-02-08 10:27|| 2007-02-08 10:27|| Front Page Top

#3 "....and a pony!"

Posted by Steve">Steve 2007-02-08 10:28|| 2007-02-08 10:28|| Front Page Top

#4 Reminds me of that (arab) minorities rights she-activist who asked that France "denationalizes" its identity in a debate, that is that France stops refering to itself as an european, french country, with an History and an heritage.

The Borgs don't assimilate, you assimilate to the Borgs.

Posted by anonymous5089 2007-02-08 10:35|| 2007-02-08 10:35|| Front Page Top

#5 "its symbols of state, some core laws, and budget and land allocations."

the sympathy is based on the issue of budget allocations, which are complex, and where there are some legitimate grievances. The lack of sympathy is for the attempt to pole vault from the question of budget allocations to the identity of the state and its symbols.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 10:49|| 2007-02-08 10:49|| Front Page Top

#6 I think a consensual democracy with equal opportunity and justice for all, whether Muslim, Jewish, Christian, atheist, or any other flavor would be an incredible step toward modeling peace in the Middle East. The American democratic republic alone ensures equal rights for everyone, but convincing the ultra-Orthodox Israel to relinquish their religious identity in exchange for a national one is another civil war simmering in the region. Continued polarization with nukes doesn't further anyone's interests, either. I find the debate very interesting.

Posted by Danielle 2007-02-08 11:17|| 2007-02-08 11:17|| Front Page Top

#7 I call on Israeli arabs to shed their Islamic identity.

Only fair, right? See how far that flies.

Posted by DarthVader">DarthVader 2007-02-08 11:26|| 2007-02-08 11:26|| Front Page Top

#8 That's bloody nonsense, Danielle. Israel was founded by Jewish identity socialists as the culmination of a national liberation movement, not ultra-religious Jews, who still refuse to accept a Jewish nation not founded by the Messiah as part of the final in-gathering. Israel is a secular nation with secular laws equally binding on its citizens of all religions and none, not a Jewish version of Sharia. Functionally Israel is a Jewish nation much like the US is a Christian one, in that the majority are of one religion and the government shuts down for its key holidays. But unlike the US, Israel also allows religious minorites certain priviledges not afforded the majority, eg neither Arab Muslims nor Arab Christians are drafted into the Armed Forces, although there certainly are volunteers. The ultra-orthodox Jews are also exempt from the draft as it happens, but atheists and homosexuals are not.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-02-08 11:37|| 2007-02-08 11:37|| Front Page Top

#9 "The ultra-orthodox Jews are also exempt from the draft as it happens"

NOte - the Modern Orthodox are not exempt, and the exemption for the Ultra O is a matter of huge controversy.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 11:49|| 2007-02-08 11:49|| Front Page Top

#10
Hmm how many mosques in israel, how many synagogues in saudi arabia?

Posted by flash91 2007-02-08 11:51|| 2007-02-08 11:51|| Front Page Top

#11 "I find the debate very interesting"

Im glad you do, but as TW has pointed out, there's alot you need to learn about Israeli society and politics to make sense of it, as well as the complex relationship between national and religious identity in Judaism. I would suggest Howard Sachar for a good (but long) history of Israel. Otherwise there are a number of good websites. If youre really interested I would look for some.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 11:52|| 2007-02-08 11:52|| Front Page Top

#12 Yeah right. Let's begin by all Arab countroes of Maghreb shed their Arab uindentity in order to make place for their opressed Berber minorities.

Posted by JFM">JFM 2007-02-08 11:53|| 2007-02-08 11:53|| Front Page Top

#13 "the ultra-Orthodox Israel to relinquish their religious identity in exchange for a national one is another civil war simmering in the region."

Orthodox, in Judaism, means religious Jews who assert that Jewish law is binding and can usually not be changed. Ultra O are a subset of O who oppose any compromise between religion and modernity, and largely reject modern culture.

The founders of the Zionist movement were largely (esp in Eastern Eur) either Jews who were completly secular, whose identity was a matter of culture and community, and who accepted only the ethical aspects of the Jewish religion, or (in central eur) Jews whose religiositiy was neither intense nor Orthodox. Some support was given them by some of the Modern Orthodox (Orthodox Jews who do embrace modernity, as long as it doesnt conflict with Jewish law)

Even secular Jews saw a need for a state for the Jewish people, which they saw as a real historical entity, of which religion was only part of its culture.

When the state was founded, being Jewish for purposes of immigration (jews and their immediate relations are not subject to immigration restrictions, having an automatic right of return) the traditional Jewish def of who is a Jew was adopted - anyone with a jewish mother, or a convert to Judaism. Denying folks of Jewish descent those rights would have contradicted the function of the state, which was to allow Jews to return home after thousands of years in exile. To exclude converts might have been more consistent with the secularism of the founders, but would have alienated the Modern Orthodox, and even those centrist Jews who valued the tradition without actually being practicing Orthodox (im thinking more of traditionalist Jews than of affiliated Cons or Reform, of whom there were few in Israel at the time)

The quibbles about national and religios identity have been of limited practical application for most of Israels existence. Most Israeli arabs are NOT Hebrew speaking Israelis who happen to be of Muslim faith. They are Arabs by language, culture, and self identification, and any attempt to secularize Israeli identity, by saying that anyone who speaks Hebrew and identifies with Hebrew culture and society is a member of the majority group, while it would be very important to certain non-Jewish Russian immmigrants (who came in as relations of Jews) and to some fringe muslim groups like the Circassians, and might appease those in Europe for whom a hint of relgious identity is repulsive, would mean little or nothing to the vast majority of Israeli arabs.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 12:08|| 2007-02-08 12:08|| Front Page Top

#14 "the ultra-Orthodox Israel to relinquish their religious identity in exchange for a national one is another civil war simmering in the region."

Orthodox, in Judaism, means religious Jews who assert that Jewish law is binding and can usually not be changed. Ultra O are a subset of O who oppose any compromise between religion and modernity, and largely reject modern culture.

The founders of the Zionist movement were largely (esp in Eastern Eur) either Jews who were completly secular, whose identity was a matter of culture and community, and who accepted only the ethical aspects of the Jewish religion, or (in central eur) Jews whose religiositiy was neither intense nor Orthodox. Some support was given them by some of the Modern Orthodox (Orthodox Jews who do embrace modernity, as long as it doesnt conflict with Jewish law)

Even secular Jews saw a need for a state for the Jewish people, which they saw as a real historical entity, of which religion was only part of its culture.

When the state was founded, being Jewish for purposes of immigration (jews and their immediate relations are not subject to immigration restrictions, having an automatic right of return) the traditional Jewish def of who is a Jew was adopted - anyone with a jewish mother, or a convert to Judaism. Denying folks of Jewish descent those rights would have contradicted the function of the state, which was to allow Jews to return home after thousands of years in exile. To exclude converts might have been more consistent with the secularism of the founders, but would have alienated the Modern Orthodox, and even those centrist Jews who valued the tradition without actually being practicing Orthodox (im thinking more of traditionalist Jews than of affiliated Cons or Reform, of whom there were few in Israel at the time)

The quibbles about national and religios identity have been of limited practical application for most of Israels existence. Most Israeli arabs are NOT Hebrew speaking Israelis who happen to be of Muslim faith. They are Arabs by language, culture, and self identification, and any attempt to secularize Israeli identity, by saying that anyone who speaks Hebrew and identifies with Hebrew culture and society is a member of the majority group, while it would be very important to certain non-Jewish Russian immmigrants (who came in as relations of Jews) and to some fringe muslim groups like the Circassians, and might appease those in Europe for whom a hint of relgious identity is repulsive, would mean little or nothing to the vast majority of Israeli arabs.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 12:08|| 2007-02-08 12:08|| Front Page Top

#15 I, for one, am ready to shed part of Jewish Identity---the part that, so far, prevented Israel from dealing with Arabs in terms that they understand and respect.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-02-08 12:51|| 2007-02-08 12:51|| Front Page Top

#16 You wouldn't happen to mean the part that's reluctant to use incredible amounts of violence, would you?

Posted by Secret Master 2007-02-08 13:07|| 2007-02-08 13:07|| Front Page Top

#17 Functionally Israel is a Jewish nation much like the US is a Christian one, in that the majority are of one religion and the government shuts down for its key holidays.

I agree that in practice that's true. Unlike the US, however, Israel was overtly intended to be a Jewish homeland. Jews are immediately granted citizenship, regardless of country of birth. Orthodox Jews are afforded a special status (e.g., exemption from military service). So I think religion plays a more visible and central role in Israel than in the US, where the determination of citizenship and civic responsibilities do not vary across populations. Having said that, while religion plays such a role in Israel, it manifests itself significantly differently in Israel than in self-identified muslim countries.

Posted by PlanetDan">PlanetDan 2007-02-08 13:07|| 2007-02-08 13:07|| Front Page Top

#18 Good point, PlanetDan. Thanks for that.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-02-08 13:15|| 2007-02-08 13:15|| Front Page Top

#19 #16 It's not the amount, it's how (and where) the force is applied. To put it another way. IMO, reciprocity is the basis of morality. Hence, restricting yourself by applying civilized conventions to people who do not reciprocate in kind is immoral.

Posted by gromgoru 2007-02-08 13:22|| 2007-02-08 13:22|| Front Page Top

#20 "Orthodox Jews are afforded a special status (e.g., exemption from military service). "

sigh, once again Modern Orthodox Jews not only are NOT exempt from military service, they are among the Israelis who are MOST unhappy about the exemptions for ultra-Orthodox Jews. The Ultra-O were a population who had been living in the land before the beginnings of Zionist promoted immigration, who largely opposed the State, who were few in number, and who were largely not ideal candidates for the military anyway. Letting them study religious law in their yeshivas and be exempt from military service seemed like a reasonable idea in 1949. After all they were an anachronism, sure to die out as their young people were drawn to modern life, like so many children of Eastern Euro Jews who had left Ultra-Orthodoxy for modern life. Except it didnt happen that way, they didnt leave (mostly) and they DID have huge families. So now theres a huge population of ultra-O, and the number of young men who study in Yeshiva (since if they get jobs they cease to be exempt from military service) has become a serious drain on the state. and a matter of considerable controversy.

Like with MOST things discussed here, its never as simple as it seems.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 13:45|| 2007-02-08 13:45|| Front Page Top

#21 once again Modern Orthodox Jews not only are NOT exempt from military service

Yes I know. I was taking a shortcut, lumping all Orthodox together, to make my point -- but as you clearly point out, sometimes shortcuts don't get you where you want to go. Thanks for the clarification.

Posted by PlanetDan">PlanetDan 2007-02-08 15:07|| 2007-02-08 15:07|| Front Page Top

#22 Gosh, I can't believe that Arabs would want to even set foot in Israel, what with the jew-cooties and all that hemoglobin flavored matzoh. Could it be they have a secret agenda?

Posted by SteveS 2007-02-08 15:16|| 2007-02-08 15:16|| Front Page Top

#23 Let's skip all the talk about Jewishness and cut right to the chase - this is an attempt by the arabs to destroy Israel from within. They know they can (and will) out-breed the Israelis. They know that if they can force these changes, they will become the dominant factor in Israel. They know that if they persist, they can change the very nature of Israel from within, from being a homeland for the Jews to being just another failed arab state. They need to be expelled.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2007-02-08 15:32|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2007-02-08 15:32|| Front Page Top

#24 I didn't mean to ignorantly offend anyone. I'm pro-Israel and watch the news with angst. I'm on RB to learn and I have already learned immensely. Thank you all. I've been watching all the Paleo infighting and was just surprised that debate was even beginning regarding the state of Israel. Recognition that it is a Jewish state in the first place is progress. Getting them to relocate outside the current borders is even better, where they can breed all they want, Old Patriot. I'd be just as happy to help them relocate to Jordan, solving the Arab Muslim problem in Israel once and for all, maybe as a sort of Christian goodwill mission trip. Jimmah's Habitat for Humanity can start by building homes. I just can't figure out how to convince them to go!

Posted by Danielle 2007-02-08 16:49|| 2007-02-08 16:49|| Front Page Top

#25 If the state quits feeding the muslims and stops all welfare payments, I think the problem with the rapidly exploding muslim birthrate will cease.

Posted by RWV 2007-02-08 17:05|| 2007-02-08 17:05|| Front Page Top

#26 I didn't mean to ignorantly offend anyone.

Forgiven, Danielle dear. We know you're one of the good guys. But it's a hot button issue, and you said almost all the wrong things.

Remember, these are Israeli Arabs -- full citizens -- not "Palestinians" like their cousins in the territories. Their ancestors chose to stay put when the "Palestinians" ran away in 1948. They've nothing to do with the Paleo infighting... or they shouldn't, anyway, although since the first intifada they've been presented with the idea that PA Palestinians are more authentic than they, paralleling the idea that ghetto/gangsta blacks are more authentic than (forgive the insult)"Oreo" middle class African Americans.

Finally, birth rates amongst both Israeli Arabs and Palestinians have fallen dramatically. That outbreeding thingy isn't going nearly as well as planned for them. If I recall correctly, Palestinians now tend toward 4-5 children per family vs. historical 8-9, and I think Israeli Arabs are at a similar level. However, while the descendents of the European Jews tend to have 1-2 children, the descendents of the Jews of the Middle East and Africa generally have larger families, and also marry younger.

Posted by trailing wife 2007-02-08 19:13|| 2007-02-08 19:13|| Front Page Top

#27 "Finally, birth rates amongst both Israeli Arabs and Palestinians have fallen dramatically."

not nearly as dramatically as elsewhere in the arab world, like Egypt, Jordan and Tunisia, but that doesnt stop people from fearing mass migrations to create Eurabia.

Actually IIUC the birthrates have come down faster in the West Bank than in Gaza, probably reflecting worse social conditions in Gaza. One more reason its in Israels interest to improve conditions for Pals.

Oh, and IIUC the birthrate for sephardic jews is now not signigificantly higher than for ashekenazic jews, though for both among the non-Ortho its settled abit above replacement (which is higher than for non-O ashkenazic jews outside Israel) The Jewish group with the highest birth rate is the Ultra O, which brings us full circle.

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 22:37|| 2007-02-08 22:37|| Front Page Top

#28 should have been "not significantly higher anymore"

Posted by liberalhawk 2007-02-08 22:38|| 2007-02-08 22:38|| Front Page Top

#29 Danielle: I think a consensual democracy with equal opportunity and justice for all...

Israel more or less achieves that...

http://www.lectlaw.com/files/int19.htm

Upon attaining independence (1948), Israel passed the Law and Administration
Ordinance, which stipulated that the laws prevailing in the country prior to
statehood would remain in force insofar as they did not contradict the principles
embodied in the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel and would not
conflict with laws to be enacted by the Knesset. Thus, the legal system includes what
has remained of Ottoman law (in force until 1917), many British Mandate laws (1918-
48), which incorporate a large body of English common law, elements of Jewish
religious law and some aspects of other systems. However, the prevailing
characteristic of the legal system, which is still in the process of development, is
the large corpus of independent statutory and case law which has evolved since 1948.
The general approach follows the Western concept of the rule of law, the development
of which is entrusted to the democratically elected Knesset and an independent
judiciary.

Posted by Angaviling Thomoter8773 2007-02-08 22:50|| 2007-02-08 22:50|| Front Page Top

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