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2006-09-27 Home Front: WoT
AWOL Soldier Surrenders at Army Base
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Posted by Steve White 2006-09-27 00:00|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07]  Top

#1 In past wars, many genuine CO's chose to serve as medics, so as not to pick up a gun, and served honorably.
Posted by Grunter 2006-09-27 00:26||   2006-09-27 00:26|| Front Page Top

#2 Most oldstyle CO's didn't surrender with press coverage.
Posted by Super Hose 2006-09-27 00:58||   2006-09-27 00:58|| Front Page Top

#3 Look for the looney left to rally behind this volunteer traitor. He becomes the darling of MSM.
Posted by Captain America 2006-09-27 03:29||   2006-09-27 03:29|| Front Page Top

#4 CA, he already is. The first contact listed on aguayodefense.org is Elsa Rassbach, the same German anti-war nutjob who organized a Cindy Sheehan visit and anti-war protest outside the gate at Ramstein a few months ago (Aguayo was assigned to Schweinfurt).

He isn't on Code Pink's radar yet, but he is featured at couragetoresist.org.

This Stars & Stripes article gives a breakdown of C.O. approval/denial stats:
2001: 18 approved, 5 disapproved = 23 total

2002: 17 approved, 6 disapproved = 23

2003: 31 approved, 29 disapproved = 60

2004: 33 approved, 34 disapproved = 67

2005: 23 approved, 38 disapproved = 61

A roughly 50/50 breakdown indicates to me that the military does a pretty good job assessing C.O. applications in good faith. Too good, if you ask me, considering there is no draft.
Posted by exJAG 2006-09-27 04:59||   2006-09-27 04:59|| Front Page Top

#5 Of what value to the military are these guys if they've applied for CO and been denied?

It seems to me the problem is economic. It costs a lot to train a troop, whatever the service. If they want to opt out, there should be a liquidated damages clause in their contract that allows them to get a less than honorable discharge and re-imburse the government for their training cost if they decide their conscience can't take it. That would end up being a large number. Very large. But if they want to pay uncle back in 5 years, they can. If they don't pay off on time, wait till the day before the statute of limitations and sue to collect the money, forcing bankruptcy if necessary. Perhaps fraud charges can be added if they never make payments.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-09-27 06:30||   2006-09-27 06:30|| Front Page Top

#6 I'm not mil/ex-mil, but I sure would think that a medic has about the least claim to CO status, right next to the chaplain's assistant.

That's the traditional position for COs who are not traitors.

Of what value to the military are these guys if they've applied for CO and been denied?

Agreed. Anyone who doesn't get approved as a CO should be discharged. Isn't there a status that simply says "didn't complete service"?

Of course, with a volunteer military, it's hard to give a rat's ass about people who suddenly wake up and realize what they're expected to do.
Posted by Rob Crawford">Rob Crawford  2006-09-27 08:18|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/]  2006-09-27 08:18|| Front Page Top

#7 Conscientious objector? Here’s a real CO. He was drafted. He didn’t volunteer. Yet he upheld the oath he took upon entering the Army, unlike this person.

Punishment? For whom? Just creates more problems for other personnel. To take the words of Shakespeare’s Henry V -
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made,
And crowns for convoy put into his purse;
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.

Give the lad a General Officer Article XV and a bad conduct discharge. If the lad hesitates, then go ahead and courts martial him. He’ll enjoy the federal felony conviction. If he is naturalized, that then goes ‘puff’ too. And James Klimaski is full of it if he thinks that the CO appeal will have any effect upon AWOL charges. Separate offense, along with missing movement, disobedience of orders, etc. All compounding to an administrative discharge for bad conduct. Bye, bye VA entitlements and programs.
Posted by Glerong Unock6380 2006-09-27 09:18||   2006-09-27 09:18|| Front Page Top

#8 Fixed that link GC.

And your right - *that* is a hero!
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-09-27 09:38||   2006-09-27 09:38|| Front Page Top

#9 oops mean fixed that link GU....

No doubt this guy hopes to be a poster boy for the anti-war movement. Note that he joined after 9/11 (even after war in Afghanistan started...). He knew what he was getting into.
Posted by CrazyFool 2006-09-27 09:43||   2006-09-27 09:43|| Front Page Top

#10 As RC points out, the guy's a traitor and ought to get death for desertion in wartime. But he's gaming it very carefully, having turned himself in just before the 30-day mark (this being the point where AWOL becomes desertion).

Further, his name wasn't on the manifest when his unit deployed, so he probably won't be charged with missing movement either. I'd guess the command was well aware of his intentions and said, fuck it, who needs him. Unfortunately, that documentary proof was a key element of the offense, so a conviction on that will be one real hard to get.

No Big Chicken Dinners for Art. 15s or administrative separations either -- BCDs and DDs are possible only upon conviction by a general court-martial. I'm sure he's gunning for an admin sep, because the worst admin discharge is an OTH (under other than honorable conditions), which does not entail the loss of too many government benefits. Or count as a federal conviction.

From a legal point of view, this guy is being the biggest pain in the ass he can possibly be. He's not just a coward: those sorts piss hot, ask for an out in lieu of court-martial, and take the OTH like a man. Aguayo is an activist: he wants the publicity.
Posted by exJAG 2006-09-27 10:32||   2006-09-27 10:32|| Front Page Top

#11 The best interest of the Army is what we should be discussing and nothing more. This guy does not matter to any of us in DOD and I think it would be in our best interest to give the jerk a general discharge and wash our hands of him. Otherwise he will be the latest anti war poster boy, a hero for the upcomming elections and the left. This is an all volunteer Army, cut bait on him and let’s not waste any more assets and taxpayers dollars on this guy.
Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan  2006-09-27 10:52||   2006-09-27 10:52|| Front Page Top

#12 Ok, I never served, but I still don't see how someone in a volunteer military can claim conscientious objector status and get it approved. How would someone do that? (Would it generally be something like conversion to a religion that is pacifist, like the Quakers or Jains, or are there other ways to do it?)
Posted by Swamp Blondie 2006-09-27 11:16|| http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ]">[http://azjetsetchick.blogspot.com ]  2006-09-27 11:16|| Front Page Top

#13 Blondie,
The US military has always recognized - though usually in the breach - the right of even a volunteer to suddenly have a 'road-to-Damascus' moment and no longer wish to be part of a military force. The question that has always arisen is whether or not such moments are genuine as opposed to the 'oh-sh*t-I-could-get-shot-at' sort. But in any case, there is and has - as nearly as I can tell - always been a procedure to investigate and sort out such instances. It is FAR from pleasant, and in the case of the USAF I know it was usually a guilty until proven innocent mindset. I did 20 years in the AVM and knew several people who decided they could no longer be military, though only one was - IMHO - a genuine conversion.(That individual is now a full-time missionary, and has served in some nations that are best described as unpleasant to Americans.) The rest all got fair hearings at Government expense. All but one were sent home with General Discharges and the last got an Article 15 for falsifying Government documents - to wit, saying he wasn't a CO on his enlistment paperwork.

Mike
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-09-27 12:27||   2006-09-27 12:27|| Front Page Top

#14 49 Pan, I would tend to agree with you, but there'' a principle here that needs to be upheld loud and clear, or it will degrade the entire concept of Military discipline and structure. You don't have to volunteer. You don't have to swear an oath. But if you do, you WILL be held accountable for it. The moonbats be damned. Imprison the man.
Posted by mcsegeek1 2006-09-27 12:34||   2006-09-27 12:34|| Front Page Top

#15 He signed a contract and violated it. A dishonarable discharge and jail time is justified. If he is willing to suffer the consequences then it's his choice. So what if the Sheehan handlers want to make him a poster boy. That whole Sheehan thing did little more than to expose the aging lefties as a bunch of loons and losers from an era gone by. He's going to spend his life rationalizing his decision. A dishonorable discharge is no small matter - it follows you for life.
Posted by anon 2006-09-27 15:39||   2006-09-27 15:39|| Front Page Top

#16 OK lets back up a minute. He served a tour in combat. That is a life changing event in its own right. He did not run in combat, he served. It was only after he returned to the states he had his, Road to Damascas moment, (thanks Mike)when he heard he would have to go again. It does not seem to me to be CO thats driving him. My bet is it's fear. He's seen it, been there, done that, and he's scared to death to go back. Looking at the numbers of CO's it seems trivial and more of a consumer of jag manhours that they are worth to our system. Maybe after all these years I'm getting soft, or wiser, but from my perspective he's a waste of time for the Army, soldiers could care less about him and we don't need him, throw his ass out on a general and get back to spending the energy on troops that want to be here.
Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan  2006-09-27 16:27||   2006-09-27 16:27|| Front Page Top

#17 49 Pan,
I'm inclined to agree with you to a certain extent, insofar as the guy probably is just plain scared - and God knows I don't blame him. The kid was a medic, and even the most well-adjusted warrior would probably have nightmares given what he may have seen. But there are even programs in place for that, assuming he was willing to avail himself of them.

The Army, however, genuinely needs to land on these idiots with both feet. Political problems with court-martialing alleged CO's? Fine. Court-martial them for falsifying government documents and failure to obey an order unless they formally apply to be CO's. If they are truly COs, they'll go through the system and take their chances. At that point, if they still refuse, Leavenworth their as*es. A genuine CO will take retraining into a stateside job.
The UCMJ has many and manifold ways to take down someone who is trying to game the system, which is exactly what this lad is trying to do.

Mike
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-09-27 16:49||   2006-09-27 16:49|| Front Page Top

#18 Interesting date. September 2nd (this year, I presume) - if you're AWOL for more than 30 days, the charge becomes "desertion in a time of war."
Posted by mojo">mojo  2006-09-27 17:11||   2006-09-27 17:11|| Front Page Top

#19 I'm with you on that Mike. Good order and disapline will require The courts martial and probably some jail time. Our conversation will be the exact same one the panel at the courts martial will have. Should make good conversation when its over.
Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan  2006-09-27 17:18||   2006-09-27 17:18|| Front Page Top

#20 Prison will make them martyrs to the media and the people who put them up to it. No jail time. Make the penalty financial.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-09-27 17:21||   2006-09-27 17:21|| Front Page Top

#21 I have to wonder what this guys relationship was with his unit? I mean if I was deploying and one of my guys went AWOL I would be VERY upset. That angered would be tendered if I didn’t like the guy. He sounds like someone that wasn’t and won’t be missed by his unit. Finally, he could have accomplished the same thing by simple not going, facing his discipline, and he would have also found a willing soapbox in the media. I guess he wanted a few months to rant about the war, smoke pot, and bad mouth his country. DROP AND GIVE ME 20 SWEAT PEA!
Posted by Gunnery Sergeant Emil Foley 2006-09-27 17:26||   2006-09-27 17:26|| Front Page Top

#22 Mike and 49, soldiers do not create a legal clusterfuck of this magnitude just because they're scared. After his CO claim was denied, you'll notice that he filed suit in federal court -- in D.C., while stationed in Germany -- lost, and appealed. This would have required an investment of many thousands of dollars in legal fees (which he paid out of an E4's salary?) and many, many hours of writing, e-mailing, and on the phone. Add to this the legal shitstorm he'll have to deal with on the military side now.

Guys who are scared at least usually have the courage to admit it, and take their lumps. Further, guys who are genuinely COs are perfectly content as medics. Neither is the case here. Aguayo is a publicity hound who -- with the help of his attorneys, no doubt -- has calculated his every move to drag this out and create as many difficulties for the government as possible.
Posted by exJAG 2006-09-27 18:08||   2006-09-27 18:08|| Front Page Top

#23 That's why the penalty should be financial.
Posted by Nimble Spemble 2006-09-27 18:19||   2006-09-27 18:19|| Front Page Top

#24 There ya go exjag, buy ya a beer at the next RB meeting, gotta make one before I PCS to Mesa. Dump this guy, general discharge and move on to spending time and money on helping the warfighter, F*&k him.
Posted by 49 Pan">49 Pan  2006-09-27 18:19||   2006-09-27 18:19|| Front Page Top

#25 I agree with 49 Pan. Haul him to Ft. Sill, quick admin process, give him an OTH, and dump him. If you do it right, it can be done in a day (personal experience serving on a board). Okay it's Army - maybe three days... :p
Posted by Pappy 2006-09-27 20:50||   2006-09-27 20:50|| Front Page Top

#26 ExJAG,
Had not thought of that...wonders who got to him and how.

Mike
Posted by Mike Kozlowski 2006-09-27 21:29||   2006-09-27 21:29|| Front Page Top

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