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2005-12-18 Europe

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Posted by Jackal 2005-12-18 00:00|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "Le Pen is known for advocating tough law enforcement policies, possibly including the reinstatement of the death penalty; strong restrictions on immigration to France from countries outside Europe; and withdrawal or at least far greater independence from the European Union."

So far so good. However, he also has connections to Nazis and Vichy France officials, hates America, and as soon as the muzzies were dealt with, he'd finish off the Jooos too.

Europeans know no such thing as "moderation."

Posted by ST 2005-12-18 06:34|| 2005-12-18 06:34|| Front Page Top

#2 What I read about Le Pen, I assume it is as unbiased reporting as a story read in Europe about President Bush, first filtered by the NYT, and *then* re-filtered by the Independent (UK), and *then* re-re-filtered by La Monde.

In other words, distorted beyond recognition.

I wonder how many Europeans actually think that Bush is as extreme as Americans think Le Pen is?

Is what we know of the man solely from the French equivalent of Moveon.org? Remember the utter hysterics the US left has been shrieking, calling Bush a "fascist".

Unless I read an in-depth piece in the American Spectator or National Review about Le Pen, I don't think I can say one way or another.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-12-18 09:43|| 2005-12-18 09:43|| Front Page Top

#3 Here's a 2002 analysis of Le Pen and the refusal of other French politicians to address immigration issues. Written by National Review's Dalrymple and published in the Manhattan Institute's City Journal.

Posted by lotp 2005-12-18 09:50|| 2005-12-18 09:50|| Front Page Top

#4 There is very little un-opinionated information out there about Le Pen or his party. I am starting to suspect that much of what has been said about him and them is propaganda. If I am wrong on this, please let me know.

Here is one of the less obviously biased bits of information I have found about his party:

This is from the (disputed) Wiki about Le Pen's Front National:

The party describes itself as a mainstream conservative party. The Washington Post has called it an anti-immigrant party and the New York Times has described it as far-right. The Weekly Standard has called it fascistic.

The political platform of the Front National is mainly focused on the control of immigration, the repatriation of illegal immigrants and the priority of French citizens over foreigners for access to jobs and social services: in a standardized pamphlet delivered to all French electors in the 1995 presidential election, Jean-Marie Le Pen proposed the "sending back" of "three million non-Europeans" out of France, by "humane and dignified means". However, in the campaign for the 2002 French presidential election, the stress was more on issues of law and order â one of the recurrent themes of the National Front is tougher law enforcement and higher sentences for crimes, and the reinstatement of the death penalty.

The National Front regularly campaigns against the "establishment", which encompasses the other political parties as well as most journalists. Le Pen lumped all major parties (PC, PS, UDF, RPR) into the "Gang of Four" (an allusion to Communist China's "Cultural Revolution"). According to Front rhetoric, the French right-wing parties are not true right-wing parties, and are almost indistinguishable from the "Socialo-Communist" left; the corrupt "establishment" is betraying France, and it opposes by all means the coming of the Front.

Other main positions include:

* greater independence from the European Union and other international organizations; in 2002, withdrawal from the Euro was suggested, but the suggestion was then largely withdrawn;
* the establishment of tariffs or other protectionist measures against cheap imports threatening the local agriculture or industry;
* a return to more traditional values
-in the family area: making access to abortion more difficult or even illegal; paying parents (mainly mothers) who raise children; refusing gay culture;
-in the cultural area: refusing "aberrant" modern art and promoting local traditional culture.

Again, I am wondering about the "extreme right-wing" and "fascist" labels being applied here.

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-12-18 16:04|| 2005-12-18 16:04|| Front Page Top

#5 Wiki discussion about the Front National:

http://tinyurl.com/7u7zv

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-12-18 16:12|| 2005-12-18 16:12|| Front Page Top

#6 'Moose, google "le Pen" and "holocaust" to understand some of the labels applied to him.

Posted by lotp 2005-12-18 19:17|| 2005-12-18 19:17|| Front Page Top

#7 #4 'moose - From what you've described, I can certainly see why the Euros think he's an extremist.

Promote traditional values (or any values at all)? Limit abortion? Refuse "gay culture"?

The Euros are more interested in feeling superior than in their own survival. If the other parties don't like what Le Pen is selling, they'd better get a platform that addresses the average Frenchman's fears, or the people will vote for the person who does. And right now that's Le Pen.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut">Barbara Skolaut 2005-12-18 19:18|| http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html]">[http://ariellestjohndesigns.com/page/15bk1/Home_Page.html] 2005-12-18 19:18|| Front Page Top

#8 I have to side with Anonymoose here: his point is that the MSM in France is worse than ours here in the USA, and so there really is no telling what the truth is AS THE FRENCH MSM REPORT IT.

I second Anonymoose's doubts, and suggest we wait until we hear JFM's opinion on this. Listening to the man on the French street, rather than the elite, is part of the process of clearing away the BS and getting to the truth of how that man on the street will likely vote.

I ask silent French vistors to Rantburg to speak up and register your opinion: unlike the liberal english elites, we're able to get past the inevitable stumbles of grammar and make an honest effort to communicate. Heck, you can't get worse than Mucky, and we not only understand him, but chew the ass of anybody who mocks him on our site.

Posted by Ptah">Ptah 2005-12-18 20:07|| http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org]">[http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2005-12-18 20:07|| Front Page Top

#9 I do what lotp suggests because ~~I've seen her with a whip in her hand~~ I respect her opinion. First hit on google was from the Washington Times, not your standard MSM outlet:

The second mockery of Europe's tragic past that occurred this week was French neo-fascist Jean-Marie Le Pen's dismissal of the German occupation of France as "not especially inhumane." In an interview with the far-right journal Rivarol, the National Front leader said: "If the Germans had carried out mass executions across the country as the received wisdom would have it, then there wouldn't have been any need for concentration camps for political deportees." Le Pen, who has previously described the Holocaust as a "detail of history," added that the limited Nazi excesses that did take place during the war were "inevitable in a country of 550,000 sq km (220,000 sq miles.)"

Over 70,000 Jews were transported from France to the killing factories of occupied Poland, and in Le Pen's homeland thousands of resistance fighters were murdered for opposing the Nazis. In total, six million Jews were killed by Hitler's henchmen during World War II, including over a million in the Auschwitz-Birkenau camp in Poland. These are hardly "inevitable" excesses or details of history; nor are they things to make light of by dressing oneself up in the garb of murderers.

The problem with the right in Europe is that it doesn't share the bed with libertarians, but with fascists, literally.

Posted by Jock Elmavising2283 2005-12-18 20:26|| 2005-12-18 20:26|| Front Page Top

#10 Where there's a whip, there's a way ....

More seriously, while I have sympathy for some of the concerns Le Pen articulates, I find him slimy and repulsive overall - a dangerous demagogue.

Posted by lotp 2005-12-18 20:39|| 2005-12-18 20:39|| Front Page Top

#11 Jock Elmavising2283: Okay, place what you said in perspective from the point of view of France. The Germans carried off 70k Jews, that the French didn't care for much anyway. A sidenote is that Jews had been hated throughout Europe since the Middle Ages, so what had changed?

What Le Pen pointed out was that the Germans did NOT slaughter the French en masse. They could have, but in the many wars the French and the Germans had fought, neither side ever did slaughter the other like that. Though both the French *and* the Germans slaughtered Jews like that, going way back.

It sounds weird, but from the French point of view, they, the French, didn't do too badly. To this day, the French do not see the Jews who lived in France for centuries as "French", any more than the Moslems who have recently arrived. They were ghetto-ized outsiders throughout Europe.

As far as describing the Holocaust as a "detail of history", that too is a French concept, not uniquely a fascist one. It was just another genocidal slaughter in a long history of European genocidal slaughter. From the French point of view, no more impacting them than the recent ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia.

From the French point of view, Hitler was not "special" in any way. He was just another German leader. Eventually, they will just rate him as much the same as Kaiser Willhelm II. Just another German who invaded France. I suppose they might put them both in the same catagory as Henry V of England.

In fact, Le Pen was probably thinking very much of Hitler when he made his statement about kicking out the Moslems. He was very particular in stating that it would be done as "humanely" as possible, clearly a reference to the brutality of the Nazis in their initial efforts at ethnic cleansing--kicking out the Jews.

He was actually trying to reassure *someone* that while he had the same goals, he would not use the same methods. So, "fascist ends" without "fascist means", perhaps.

But some could claim that the US is in the same boat, wanting to expel huge numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants. Would we, in our wildest imaginations, think that such an expulsion would be "fascist?"

Posted by Anonymoose 2005-12-18 21:31|| 2005-12-18 21:31|| Front Page Top

#12 unlike the liberal english elites, we're able to get past the inevitable stumbles of grammar and make an honest effort to communicate.

Well said, Ptah.

History is ideology decorated with facts.

Years ago when I was at university, I recall a friend of mine explaining to me how, the history of WW2 was being rewritten. It was understood at the time as a war between nation states seeking dominance in Europe. Twenty to thirty years later it was rewritten as a crusade against an evil ideology, with the Holcaust as the primary evidence.

The Holocaust was real, but had nothing to do with the war and its conduct. Since hardly anyone knew it was occuring. In fact, at the time we knew far more about Stalin's mass deportations and killings of Cossacks, Chechens, Balts, etc. And were such atrocities the reason for the war it should have been fought against the Soviet Union.

Posted by phil_b">phil_b 2005-12-18 21:46|| http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/]">[http://autonomousoperation.blogspot.com/] 2005-12-18 21:46|| Front Page Top

#13 But some could claim that the US is in the same boat, wanting to expel huge numbers of illegal Mexican immigrants. Would we, in our wildest imaginations, think that such an expulsion would be "fascist?"

What???! Talk about not getting it. Americans LIKE Mexicans, we even like and admire the illegals who come here to put in a hard days work. Most of us, were we in their shoes, would be doing exactly the same thing that they are doing - crossing the border and coming to America. What we don't like are the problems that their being illegal creates. We have no desire to deport them because they are Mexican - we have a desire to get the illegal immigration and border situation back under control.

There is absolutely no comparison to our desire to deal with problems of ILLEGAL immigration with the French desire to rid themselves of Jews who are and have, for generations been French citizens. We LIKE the Mexican culture. We like their happy Mexican music. We LIKE the hard working Mexican people. They are our welcome friends and neighbors. We just need to get the immigration issue under control.

Your comparison is sooooo totally invalid.

Posted by 2b 2005-12-18 22:19|| 2005-12-18 22:19|| Front Page Top

#14 interesting point, phil. It strikes me that you could say the same about the civil war. Disagreement about slavery was the flashpoint of disagreement - however ultimately it was a war of states rights.

Posted by 2b 2005-12-18 22:26|| 2005-12-18 22:26|| Front Page Top

#15 Note to self: do not skim and then post rants.

Moose - I thought you were saying that LePen was talking about expelling Jews. You can see why I might have been outraged :-) As for the Muslims - it is a far more difficult problem for reasons I don't have time to discuss but are fairly obvious when considering Saudi foreign influence and jihad.

Soooo for now...um...sorry...never mind...just fergetit.

Posted by 2b 2005-12-18 22:36|| 2005-12-18 22:36|| Front Page Top

#16 ok..and one more clarification so that nobody misreads my mess in the wrong light.

The reason I jumped to the wrong conclusion was because I have been hearing that Le Pen is avidly anti-semetic and I also just read another very interesting piece about how many Jews in France are becoming very concerned about the increase in anti-semitism not just from Muslims, but from the French population in general. So it was shocking but in my head that Le Penn could have said that.

Which kind of makes the point that about jumping to conclusions about Le Pen based on newsreports that could be as biased as those about GW.

Hey, if Le Penn had said that, my post would have made sense. But he didn't so ....Doh!

Posted by 2b 2005-12-18 22:56|| 2005-12-18 22:56|| Front Page Top

23:47 3dc
23:43 3dc
23:33 Alaska Paul
23:28 Alaska Paul
23:22 yeah man
23:22 Alaska Paul
23:18 yeah whatever
23:15 Besoeker
23:08 Besoeker
23:02 Besoeker
23:00 Besoeker
22:56 2b
22:41 Frank G
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22:06 Fred
21:55 Phil
21:53 trailing wife
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21:46 phil_b
21:31 Anonymoose
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21:07 mhw