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2005-08-28 Iraq-Jordan

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Posted by Dan Darling 2005-08-28 00:22|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Steaks, na, already eat.

everythingisgointohell v.108.2

Posted by Captain America 2005-08-28 03:01|| 2005-08-28 03:01|| Front Page Top

#2 I didn't check to see, but I sure hope this wasn't an original from the North County Times. Normally that small paper has provided much better coverage (i.e., nothing from the idiot Cole and nothing from the generalist Pike, who merely recycles the glibbest tidbits of conventional wisdom).

Saddam didn't social engineer -- he merely went with the pre-existing tribal/regional flow, as he had to, post-1991.

Meanwhile, the "loss" of Anbar would be quite acceptable, if the major towns of the area were to be properly cordoned and anti-governmnet activity in the area suppressed. The war is and always has been 95% a civil war -- one which our de facto clients (Shi'a and Kurds) are exceptionally well-positioned to win decisively. A rare and happy arrangement -- though one that can only be exploited with the patience and sacrified the Marines have shown.

I'd bet at least $20 that in 10 years there will still be trouble in Ramadi and Anbar generally -- many countries are able to function fairly well while still containing some troublesome areas. Fortunately "Sunnistan" is, indeed, oil-poor. And the trucking companies of Kuwait and Turkey and Iran will not mind getting all that Aqaba-Baghdad business. If the new Iraqi government had the spine (and the ability to use our firepower), they could obtain Anbar's submission in far less time. But we've long since abandoned the only sensible strategy (break the will and capacity of the enemy to fight), and the other Iraqis apart from some Kurds have rarely shown any backbone.

Posted by Verlaine in Iraq 2005-08-28 05:57|| 2005-08-28 05:57|| Front Page Top

#3 Thank you, Verlaine - it's refreshing to hear a calm and realistic view of the situation - and the players. First-hand knowledge of Arab behavior flips several Western assumptions on their heads. Sigh. Jafaari & Co aren't worth warm spit - to Iraq's future, anyway. I'm sure Tehran appreciates them - and no doubt they keep the Sunnis in stitches. Otherwise... Where's Allawi...

I appreciate and echo all of your comments, today. I would only presume to add 3 observations while strongly echoing you thoughts on the Sunnis...

1) The old international bugaboo, faux "stability" - combined with the idiot notion that anything but a "whole" Iraq is failure, is at the heart of the current wasted motion / treading-water approaches.

2) If none of the participants in the constitutional process is actually willing to step out of character and work for the good of all, if the participants can see no further than the interests of their own group, then the existence of "Iraq" is as artificial as "Yugoslavia". Make it so, number one.

3) There is a limit to the number of strategies we have the time and treasure to try.

Thanks for your posts - they insert a breath of reality that has been missing more often than not.

Posted by .com 2005-08-28 07:51|| 2005-08-28 07:51|| Front Page Top

#4 Verlaine and .com are right and I would add that if the Sunnis want to boycot the referundum on the constitution then let them. It just means it will pass and they are screwed. Better practice herding goats for a living cos that will be the main source of Sunni employment thereafter.

Posted by phil_b 2005-08-28 08:07|| 2005-08-28 08:07|| Front Page Top

#5 Oh, no, No, NO! Don't you see? The MSM has it right. EVERYONE must all follow the same theme, which (come to think of it), is the same as it is here. Follow MY theme!

Anybody remember that Bush won 52% to 48%, and if the Iraqis read the papers here, this country is torn by racial/political/economic divisiveness. Ask Al Sharpton. Ask Jesse Jackson. Ask Cindy was-her-face. Teddy, John-Boy, or Turan Dick. Why, this country is nowhere NEAR perfect!

If a 2/3's no vote was required in 10 states (3 of 18 provices ~ 10 of 50 states)to block something, John Roberts would be confirmed tomorrow, and ... and....

Is Las Vegas taking odds on the Iraqi Constitution passing?

Posted by Bobby 2005-08-28 09:02|| 2005-08-28 09:02|| Front Page Top

#6 Sunnis are gonna stonewall themselves into a non-entity when it comes to players. Either sign the constitution or accept you'll be left out . assholes

Posted by Frank G">Frank G 2005-08-28 09:47|| 2005-08-28 09:47|| Front Page Top

#7 Anyone that quotes John Pike and Juan Cole has an agenda, and it's not pro-American. John Pike is also head of the Coalition of Concerned Scientists, which has pushed the Global Warming stupidity, and more conspiracy theories than Jesse Jackson. Juan Cole is just a pro-Arabist idiot.

There is still the option to use overwhelming force. Give the Sunnis a week to get their house in order. If they don't, pull back and let the entire city be bombed until the only thing the bombs do is churn rubble. Set up blocking forces to ensure nobody leaves. Let the entire WORLD know that our patience is limited, and we will use whatever force we believe necessary to accomplish our objectives. Too bad about the women, children, baby ducks and whatever: they had no choice. They're just as much the victims of Sunni stupidity as everyone else in Iraq. Too bad, so sad.

Posted by Old Patriot">Old Patriot 2005-08-28 14:21|| http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/]">[http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2005-08-28 14:21|| Front Page Top

#8 The Iraqis have been given the chance of a lifetime to have a decent life. But so much is tribal. The Sunnis are in the middle of a sand pile, whereas the Kurds in the north and Shiia to the south have the oil in which to create wealth and a thriving economy.

Our main objective in attacking Saddam and Co and to overthrow the machine was to eliminate Iraq as a source of global terror and the resources to create terror and instability and the possibility of passing WMD to terrorist proxies worldwide. We have done that.

The terrorists thrive and move around only in a population that aids them. The Sunnis have aided and abetted the terrorists. However, they do respect power. Old Patriot is right. Only the intelligent and concentrated application of overwhelming force will break these nutcases' will to resist. If that is not done, then we are just mucking about, using up troops and national treasure in a futile attempt at nation building.

Germany and Japan had to have the will to fight broken before we could even think about rebuilding. The same with Iraq. Unfortunately we went the PC way, getting our knickers in a knot over Abu Grabass, too much or too little air conditioning at Club Gitmo, and the mishandling of ~~Sauron's Operations Manual~~ the Q'u'or'a'n.

Posted by Alaska Paul">Alaska Paul 2005-08-28 14:49|| 2005-08-28 14:49|| Front Page Top

#9 Let's be realistic here. The enemy lost the war. The Sunnis, Baatists in particular, should no longer have sway. Moreover, the freely chose to vote with their feet and not vote.

Meantime, you have brave Iraqis who risked their lives in order to vote. This included old men who had to be carried to the voting stations in wheel barrows, etc. This is THEIR government and constitution. The elected officals are THEIR representatives. The Coaltion has lost many brave men and women so that these same people can determine their own destiny.

These are the same people who were killed in the millions under the Baatist/Saddam Regime. Damn it, let these people make their own determinations.

The Baatists were at a minimum willing accomplices to Saddam & Co. But the Baatist elements extend well into Syria. The insurgency and the terrorists stream into Iraq through Syria. Sure, it would be nice to recognize that Al Anbar province is a shit hole and leave it at that.

But the Coaltion should not leave Iraq unless and until adequate border security is provided for by trained and well equipped Iraqis and Syria has been cleaned out.

As for the political side. The Sunnis still live in DeNile and the atroscities they committed are still very fresh in the minds of Kurds and Shias. It may take a decade or more of good behavior by the Sunnis before they are capable of playing a meaningful role in the new federation.

Posted by Captain America 2005-08-28 16:08|| 2005-08-28 16:08|| Front Page Top

00:03 Vlad the Muslim Impaler
00:01 ed Your bastard kid
23:52 Bomb-a-rama
23:51 Sobiesky
23:46 eye witness
23:30 C-Low
23:23 Redneck Jim
23:09 phil_b
23:05 Halliburton Hurricane Control
22:54 Barbara Skolaut
22:35 Sock Puppet OÂ´ Doom
22:27 C-Low
22:22 Anonymoose
22:21 muck4doo
22:18 Shipman
22:16 Shipman
22:14 Poison Reverse
22:12 muck4doo
22:10 C-Low
22:09 Shipman
22:04 Shipman
22:03 Jackal
22:02 Shipman
22:02 Frank G