Article

2005-07-31 Britain

Moderate Muzzy Thingy: Bombers count on a web of support

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Posted by .com 2005-07-31 06:47|| || Front Page|| [10 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 "Moderate Muzzy Thingy"

Well put. The supporters are part of that middle group -- not gonna blow themselves up, not gonna fight for reform in the muslim world. But more than happy to provide a little support here and there to a brother.

The fallacy is that the middle group is the moderate group. That's a western wish, driven by western values, not a geopolitical reality.

The majority of muslims would, in some way, support terror.

There IS no "moderate muslim" faction. If there were, we would have heard from them by now.

Posted by PlanetDan">PlanetDan 2005-07-31 08:16|| 2005-07-31 08:16|| Front Page Top

#2 I agree. This segment is much larger than the homicide bombers and in some respects more dangerous.

The thornier issue is how they are to be dealt with? Pulling of finger and toe nails is a start, but under general sentencing guidelines and liberal judges, they spent little to no punishment. Yet they are the enablers.

Posted by Captain America 2005-07-31 10:32|| 2005-07-31 10:32|| Front Page Top

#3 The thornier issue is how they are to be dealt with?

I vote for eviction to their home country of all non-citizens, revocation of citizenship and eviction to their home country of all naturalized citizens, and long jail sentences for American-born citizens for "aiding and abetting."

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-31 11:26|| 2005-07-31 11:26|| Front Page Top

#4 PlanetDan wrote:

Well put. The supporters are part of that middle group -- not gonna blow themselves up, not gonna fight for reform in the muslim world. But more than happy to provide a little support here and there to a brother.

The fallacy is that the middle group is the moderate group. That's a western wish, driven by western values, not a geopolitical reality.

The majority of muslims would, in some way, support terror.

There IS no "moderate muslim" faction. If there were, we would have heard from them by now.

Well, it might look that way if the only countries you look at are Britian and Pakistan (where most of the moslems in the UK come from).

OTOH, it appears as if the conflict in Iraq is mainly Al Qaeda trying to fight other moslems. I'd like to suggest that Al Qaeda is doing those attacks for a reason, and that they believe in "too moderate moslems" even if the westerners don't.

To some extent, terrorist attacks like the ones in London (and Israel, and even 9-11) are cheap parlour tricks. They let people like OBL, and Saddam Hussein, and the Assad Dynasty, pretend they're in business to "resist" western countries, when by the numbers they're mainly involved in killing Moslems. The Taliban killed many more Afghans than there were New Yorkers killed in the 9/11 attacks, and noone can claim that the Afghans were killed as part of a general resistance against Westerners, or Christians. Saddam Hussein's government killed many times more Kurds (who are Moslems) and Shi'ites than it did "Zionists." But financing blowing up a pizza kitchen in Tel Aviv lets him pretend he's Saladin (who by the way was a Kurd with an army with a substantial number of Turkish soldiers) fighting the Crusaders.

To date, it's a cheap parlor trick. We need to keep the governments in question (who are more intolerant than their populations) from getting enough WMD to cement their authority on their own populations; this is probably more important than doing anything wrt the moslems in the west.

Trailing wife allegedly wrote:

I vote for eviction to their home country of all non-citizens, revocation of citizenship and eviction to their home country of all naturalized citizens, and long jail sentences for American-born citizens for "aiding and abetting."

I was under the impression that your parents were naturalized citizens. Could someone check the IP on that message, make sure it's from the usual location?

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 12:36|| http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]">[http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-07-31 12:36|| Front Page Top

#5 Phil, Americas Muslims are so moderate the largest mosque on the east coast just selected a jihadi apologist as their imam.

And I'm unaware that trailing wife has been involved in supporting or committing acts of terrorism.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-31 13:30|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-31 13:30|| Front Page Top

#6 British television has provided the USA with many entertaining repackaged shows like Trading Spaces and American Idol. Maybe it's time for a British version of COPS and America's Most Wanted.

Posted by Super Hose 2005-07-31 14:27|| 2005-07-31 14:27|| Front Page Top

#7 Consider this as a naive first approach:

If a Mohammadan is trying to establish a universal caliphate, he is presumably loyal to a foreign power. We can choose not to allow such dual citizenship, and if someone is found advocating for the caliphate, revoke their citizenship and send them elsewhere.
They are free to practice their religion so long as it remains religion and not service to hostile governments.

OK, I'm sure I'm missing some details (and the devil is in the details), but what do you all think? Any lawyers in the house?
(Since the Pope hasn't been a secular power for a long time, this approach doesn't seem to apply at all to Catholics.)

Posted by James">James 2005-07-31 14:36|| http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com]">[http://idontknowbut.blogspot.com] 2005-07-31 14:36|| Front Page Top

#8 Phil, Americas Muslims are so moderate the largest mosque on the east coast just selected a jihadi apologist as their imam.

They're also more likely to have Al Jazeera available via satellite.

It's easy to find the modern radical moslems in the West because to a large extent it's an offshoot of a western-originated and taught-as-gospel-in-western-universities school of thought, namely leftism of the Marxist/Trotskyist/Maoist/Gramsci school. It just substitutes other rationales and a different elite than the "vanguard of the proletariat."

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 14:54|| http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]">[http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-07-31 14:54|| Front Page Top

#9 I don't why you would you would suggest TW's comments weren't hers. Terrorism is just the tip of a much larger iceberg of unassimilated minorities with many attendant social problems. This is a problem that is not going away and the numbers say is going to get progressively worse. Some of us have been saying for some time that expulsion is really the only answer. The only issue is how bad things will have to get before its generally recognized. And note that Europe has a long history of doing this.

Posted by phil_b 2005-07-31 14:58|| 2005-07-31 14:58|| Front Page Top

#10 The statement about a blanket deportation of naturalized citizens seemed out of character. Maybe she meant something else, but she's usually also clearer than that.

As long as there are people running around who think that Che Guevara t-shirts are cute there's going to be a serious problem with terrorism. And the answer to that problem isn't deportation, it's the other way around: maybe all the sane people should secede.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 15:13|| http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]">[http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-07-31 15:13|| Front Page Top

#11 How suprised would you be to find out that the guy who was trolling here last week (or the week before) from Oxford wasn't Moslem?

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 15:24|| 2005-07-31 15:24|| Front Page Top

#12 My distinct impression was that they were not. More like a member of the religion of commmunism. There is no way we can deport native citizens without preverting the constutition. If that is done the terrorists have won. Naturalized citizens can and have had their citizenship revoked however.

We need to start monitoring all religious instutions better than we have been as a nation. Not interfering with but monitoring. We then can be prepared to act against religiously inspired sedition. The is no legal restraint on monitoring public acts.

Posted by Sock Puppet 0â Doom 2005-07-31 15:57|| 2005-07-31 15:57|| Front Page Top

#13 Phil F., the statement in question did indeed come from me. I'm sorry I was unclear, but it is awfully sweet of you to be concerned -- I'm flattered!

I was responding to Capt. America's post, and I intended to give my answer to his question about how to handle those who deliberately shelter suicide bombers and their co-conspirators from capture. I am indeed the child of two naturalized citizens, so I take very seriously those who betray the trust of citizenship that they consciously chose.

Oh, and phil b and Robert, thank you, too. I feel very appreciated at the moment -- much more than I deserve. :-)

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-31 16:15|| 2005-07-31 16:15|| Front Page Top

#14 OK. I was suffering from missing context. Sorry.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 16:18|| http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]">[http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-07-31 16:18|| Front Page Top

#15 I'll try to make sure it isn't missing from now on, Phil F. I don't like worrying friends needlessly.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-07-31 16:32|| 2005-07-31 16:32|| Front Page Top

#16 It's easy to find the modern radical moslems in the West because to a large extent it's an offshoot of a western-originated and taught-as-gospel-in-western-universities school of thought, namely leftism of the Marxist/Trotskyist/Maoist/Gramsci school. It just substitutes other rationales and a different elite than the "vanguard of the proletariat."

Sorry, but while both Marxism/leftism in general and Islamism make the West the enemy, I don't think one has origins in the other. The Mahdi that Churchill wrote about had likely never heard of Marx, and the conquerors of Constantinople or the Barbary pirates certainly had not.

I'll grant they borrow language from one another, though I think that's because they find it useful.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-31 18:14|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-31 18:14|| Front Page Top

#17 But Bin Laden and Zarqawi and co. aren't following the Madhi's tactics and strategies. They follow Mao's.

BTW, you might find this interesting:

http://www.windsofchange.net/archives/007258.php.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 19:02|| http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com]">[http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-07-31 19:02|| Front Page Top

#18 Naturalized citizens can and have had their citizenship revoked however.

Yes but that course of action is vanishingly rare, among the rarest of all penalties meted out by the government and thus it is highly unlikely that it will become a common punishment for terrorist sympathizers. Far more likely (and far easier to accomplish legally) would be choking off the steady influx of reinforcements by closing our borders to the Islamist horde â¦ of course thatâs not going to happen either.

Posted by AzCat 2005-07-31 20:03|| 2005-07-31 20:03|| Front Page Top

#19 But Bin Laden and Zarqawi and co. aren't following the Madhi's tactics and strategies. They follow Mao's.

Tactics are not intellectual background. The US military was willing to adopt the Nazi's combined arms tactics without having politics rooted in Naziism.

Posted by Robert Crawford">Robert Crawford 2005-07-31 20:11|| http://www.kloognome.com/]">[http://www.kloognome.com/] 2005-07-31 20:11|| Front Page Top

#20

Tactics are not intellectual background. The US military was willing to adopt the Nazi's combined arms tactics without having politics rooted in Naziism.

I didn't mean tactics as in method-of-handling-a-firefight. I was thinking more of the "hold the headman of the village's family hostage" sort of tactics. Which is increacingly a political and ideological system of its own. The practicioners in Iraq don't really care about Islam any more than Mao really cared about the proletariat.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 21:45|| 2005-07-31 21:45|| Front Page Top

#21 More to the point, we adopted Nazi combined-arms tactics without adopting the forced-labor death camp.

The Maoist guerilla-terrorism hybrid strategy is a combination political/military strategy and death-camp-like political power enforcement system combined.

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 21:47|| 2005-07-31 21:47|| Front Page Top

#22 I also found this statement of Arthur Chrenkoff's over at Roger L. Simon's:

We are told that London bombings are a result of Tony Blair's decision to participate in the illegal invasion of Iraq. We are told that the continuing occupation of Iraq, and the carnage and humiliation inflicted upon Iraqi people by the United States, Great Britain and other occupying powers have radicalized some British Muslims to such extent as to push them into becoming suicide bombers on the buses and subways of their adopted country (in some cases their country of birth).

There are 250,000 Iraqis living in Great Britain - that's quarter of a million people, one of the biggest communities in Iraqi diaspora, and just under one sixth of the total British Muslim population of some 1.6 million.

So why, among the original 7/7 bombers, the next lot of recently captured bombers, and all the other people arrested in connection with the attacks, aren't there any British Iraqis?

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-07-31 23:15|| 2005-07-31 23:15|| Front Page Top

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