Article

2005-01-07 Europe

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Posted by ed 2005-01-07 5:19:21 AM|| || Front Page|| [3 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Good article. It's hard not to conclude that the Euros are in for dhimmitude or a big war.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-07 8:32:46 AM|| 2005-01-07 8:32:46 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 This wouldn't be happeng if Palestinians weren't denied self determination.

Posted by gromgorru 2005-01-07 8:33:29 AM|| 2005-01-07 8:33:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 A glimpse of how the virus spreads at the retail level. Who needs bioweapons when you have such a brain-destroying meme?

Posted by HV 2005-01-07 8:36:33 AM|| 2005-01-07 8:36:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Is it just me, or is Europe turning into a machine for changing moderate Moslems (yes, I know the usual chorus here will say they don't exist) from places like Morocco and Turkey into wahabbi sympathizers?

Posted by Phil Fraering 2005-01-07 9:05:30 AM|| [http://newsfromthefridge.typepad.com] 2005-01-07 9:05:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 For once I agree with Chirac. By letting Turkey into the EU radical muslims will be allowed to travel all over Europe preaching their hate and discontent with very little interference. The new Battle of Tours, will need to happen in Europe whether it be ideological or military, in the near future. The muslims are subverting culture in much the same way the commies did in the 20th century. The only difference is the muslim pathology is a thousand times more savage. I hope Europe chooses to fight for their survival.

Posted by Rightwing 2005-01-07 9:15:41 AM|| 2005-01-07 9:15:41 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 What she found stunned and angered her. The teacher was saying that "women are for the house, for the children. And the girls were sitting like this," she says, placing her hands in her lap, slumping her shoulders in an imitation of a meek posture, and casting her eyes downward. "While all of the boys," she is yelling now, "they were talking and playing. This is fundamentalism."

What, did she imagine, that the teacher would be saying that women are also creatures created in the image of God, equally deserving of God's bounties? Did she think the teacher would be promoting free choice for the different kinds of lives girls can lead (all of which are valuable)?

Where do Europeans (and many Americans, for that matter) imagine they are going to be after a few decades of this "tolerance"? When the votes of Muslims do exceed those of native Europeans on such topics of taxes going for Islamic ~~education~~ indoctrination, the outlawing of mixed-sex workplaces, the violent and discriminatory kinds of "political expression" that are going to be considered legitimate, the primacy of Sharia in their governments-do they think Germany, the Netherlands and France are still going to be Germany, the Netherlands and France? Duh!

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 9:54:04 AM|| 2005-01-07 9:54:04 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 This article, like so much pseudo-analysis of Europe's muslim problem, ignores the crucial economic dimension. So long as European governments restrict labor markets, inhibit entrepreneurship and encourage dependency on the dole, unskilled muslim immigrants will incline toward separatism and radicalism.

Our experience is clear: provide real opportunities for religious minorities-- quakers, mormons, catholics, jews, muslims, sikhs-- to start their own businesses, accumulate capital and develop a real ownership stake in the larger society, and you develop loyal, law-abiding citizens, regardless of how separate or at odds their beliefs may be from those of the majority.

It's about the state offering real economic opportunity by getting out of the way. A lesson that will likely be lost on the Europeans, who will only suffer increasing muslim separatism and alienation as a result.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 10:38:00 AM|| 2005-01-07 10:38:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 *scattering chum*

I'm sure Aris and other EUcrat statists would disagree, Lex. State control of every facet of industry, trade, commerce, and communications seems to be their raison d'etre

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-07 10:55:27 AM|| 2005-01-07 10:55:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 *scooping up the chum*

Frank, please stop baiting Aris.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-07 11:26:09 AM|| 2005-01-07 11:26:09 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Lex-While your points are valid, this article isn't primarily about the economic impact of Muslim immigration. It's not about religious freedom in the home and a chance to make a living (we ought to know by now that the West is pretty adaptable in that regard)-it's about how an incoming religious culture is taking its hostility for the host nation's norms beyond the edges of home and lawn and injecting it into the general society, damaging the quality of life and rights of the citizens of the host nation.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 11:42:48 AM|| 2005-01-07 11:42:48 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Frank will keep on pissing all over Rantburg, until Rantburg decides it no longer accepts the piss of trolls like him.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-07 12:00:08 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-07 12:00:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#12 gosh Aris...who is the troll here? Do you want to respond to article or to the charge that you desire to remain a child in a nanny state, or do you want to piss on frank?

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 12:05:45 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:05:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#13 Frank started it 2b. And its becoming tiresome. Costing Fred an awful lot in bandwidth, too.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-07 12:17:59 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:17:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#14 "Do you want to respond to article"

Not particularly interested to do so, no.

"or to the charge that you desire to remain a child in a nanny state,"

Nope, I don't feel the need to respond to Frank's "charges", either.

who is the troll here?

You do know that "trolling" is a fishing term, don't you? And where forums is concerned, it's an exact synonym for "baiting"?

So, I'd say that the troll here is obviously the person who self-admittedly has made it his sport to "bait me", aka "troll for me".

Until the moment Rantburg decides to say no to trolls, Frank will keep on wrecking threads.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-07 12:20:04 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-07 12:20:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#15 This was shaping up to be a productive thread. Looks like it's going to get hijacked by the disfunctional coupling of Aris and his detractors. That's unfortunate.

Y'all have a good slugfest now. I'll come back tonight and see if anything worthwhile happened in other threads.

Posted by Classical_Liberal 2005-01-07 12:21:26 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:21:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#16 Thread after thread YOU wreck by wasting endless bandwith to respond. Here's a tip you are too stupid to comprehend: Ignore. That's what I usually do to you.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 12:22:36 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:22:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#17 nahhhh I just wanted to see if his bot was up and running.

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-07 12:29:12 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:29:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 Thread after thread YOU wreck by wasting endless bandwith to respond.

Never since Hamas have I seen such a perfect understanding of cause and effect.

I've myself offered a truce to Frank, where I'll ignore him if he'd ignore me. Frank keeps on setting his bombs to wreck the threads, though. The offer to Frank is constant. The moment *he* stops, *I* stop.

Cause and Effect, 2b: Not only Palestinians need understand it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-07 12:30:10 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-07 12:30:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 real comment, not baiting: Europe will have a real decision to make as the birth rates of the immigrant muslims FAR exceeds the native pop. Whether they choose to retain a western orientation or dhimmitude, it will get messy, and we shouldn't intervene. It's a question of national will.
k?

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-07 12:31:56 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:31:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 This wouldn't be happeng if Palestinians weren't denied self determination.

The Islamization of Europe would be happening regardless of what happened or is happening in Palestine.

Posted by John Q. Citizen 2005-01-07 12:35:20 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:35:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Aris, I'm sorry, I didn't realize Frank had such control over your ability to act like an adult.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 12:38:47 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:38:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 JQC - I think it was sarcasm - that's the stock response for any question about arabs or muslims - "we're not responsible, besides, look at the Zionist Occupier, yadda yadda"

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-07 12:39:46 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:39:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 JQC...agreed. I still hold out hopes that VDH was right, that Euro's have a long history of rising up against threats and that once pushed far enough they will respond in a manner consistent with their history.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 12:43:10 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:43:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 2b> You seem currently also incapable of acting like an adult, and you weren't even trolled for in this thread. How come?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-07 12:45:48 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-07 12:45:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 To Aris:
[ignore]

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 12:49:24 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:49:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Ah, ignoring is always easier when you express the fact you "ignoring" them. It allows the expression of smug superiority for starters.
[ignore back]

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2005-01-07 12:52:23 PM|| [http://www.livejournal.com/~katsaris/] 2005-01-07 12:52:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 You do know that "trolling" is a fishing term, don't you?
Wait a minute, Aris! Do you mean that you are not a nasty monster that lives under a bridge?!?

Posted by Tom 2005-01-07 12:53:49 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:53:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Ah, ignoring is always easier when you express the fact you "ignoring" them. It allows the expression of smug superiority for starters

So why don't you do that too, Aris? It would spare Fred's bandwith, stop ruining perfectly good discussions and end the lenghty, protrated tantrums with only one post.

Posted by anon 2005-01-07 12:59:14 PM|| 2005-01-07 12:59:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 Please take a moment and read the comments by Aris here. You might see him in a new light.

Posted by Dishman 2005-01-07 1:04:59 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:04:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Come on Dishman, this thread is about Europe's identity crisis. Let's not turn it into All About Aris. Let's get back on track here.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 1:09:53 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:09:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Interesting point Lex. Anecdotally, lack of terrorism on U.S. soil post Sep11 indicates a different attitude among America's proportionally much smaller but not neglible muslim population.

On the other hand, it is not an exacly random sample, the immigrants have a much harder time getting to the U.S., so probably are more self-deterministic. Opportunists go to the land of opportunity, and in that respect U.S. wins hands down.

An second generation Arab-American youth(or other muslim visible minorities) from what I have seen come across as American as apple pie other than certain family or religious obligation (and who doesn't have those). Euro youth on the other hand come across as disaffected and alienated. Too much dole and political correctness, coupled with the expected public backlash. A clear us versus them situation is created and perpetuated.

Thus to that point I agree Lex. But I am not sure the entire situation can be blamed on lack of opportunity and not on cultural problems. Anecdotally (and possibly ignorantly, one should be careful regarding stereotyping)I suspect that Muslim/Arab history bears responsibility. Arab commerce flourished and then descended into a zero sum corrupt tribal society. It seems the stung pride remembers the glorious past but shifts the blame where it doesn't belong: The West. And who can be blamed for such thinking, very few people understand economics and wealth creation. Euro governments certainly don't. The French idea of shortening the work week to decrease unemployment is the dumbest thing I ever heard of.

Overall its probably a combination of factors, but I think the constraint is more of a zero sum attitude than lack of opporunity, so I am not sure whether the remedies you propose will have the desired effect. Being an economic libertarian, I agree in the general sense though.

Posted by Babson 2005-01-07 1:22:24 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:22:24 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 I apologise to all for the following statement.

I am not up for this shit today. Frank, stop acting like a fucking asshole, and leave Aris alone. It isn't funny anymore.

Yes, I know I was shouting. As I said, I apologise, but that doesn't make it any less true. And I realise it isn't just Frank. But he's the one who started it. ON PURPOSE. AGAIN.

Posted by trailing wife 2005-01-07 1:41:41 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:41:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#33 The Euros will never confront the gathering danger but will continue to appease, much like France did with Germany during WWII.

There is a solid reason why UBL offered a "truce" with Europe in mid-2004, they are weak and jelly spined. I do not concur with VDH about Euros waking up and confronting the threat. Europe is much different today than in the past. Few believe in God, most believe in self aggrandizement.

These are the seeds of the next world war.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-07 1:47:17 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:47:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#34 or the collapse of a culture. The USSR went out with a whimper too.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-07 1:52:19 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:52:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 TW:
"*scattering chum* I'm sure Aris and other EUcrat statists would disagree, Lex. State control of every facet of industry, trade, commerce, and communications seems to be their raison d'etre"

is a valid comment in this thread/in response to Lex's comment prior, even if I knew Aris would take it and run. If you don't like it, TFB, UNDERSTAND? If you think I'll let you be the moderator of my comments, you've sadly mistaken your place.

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-07 1:52:27 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:52:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 can't we all just get along?

Posted by r king 2005-01-07 1:54:22 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:54:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 ok :-)

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-07 1:56:23 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:56:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 CA and Mrs. D. You may well be right. It required the intervention of the US to save them from the Nazi and Communist threat. In defense of your theory, they seem to have gone the way of the Paleo's looking for outside boogeymen (the US and Jews) to blame rather than to hold their own leaders accountable. The MSM feeds this destructive trend with lies. The clash of cultures between the Muslims and the Euros is sure to bring the issue to a head.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 1:58:40 PM|| 2005-01-07 1:58:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 2b - but are we (the Cowboy Americans) going to be called in again to "rescue" them?? I think not. It'll be 'sink or swim' time for European culture's western orientation. They make the call, and THEY fight the battle

Posted by Frank G 2005-01-07 2:01:02 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:01:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 You don't need an absolute majority to win control of a society. The Arabs in Egypt and North Africa were only a tiny minority and look at how many native Christian churches remain between the Nile delta and the Straits of Gibraltar: zero. The Copts in Egypt are a persecuted minority.

Hitler never won an absolute majority (37.3% was the best he ever did in a real election) until he won his peaceful coup and had his state apparatus firmly in place. The Bolsheviks were a tiny minority. Lenin was forced to disband the democratically Constituent Assembly after just a few hours when it became obvious that planned on acting like a true elected body. I think that the Islamists could come to power in Europe with much less than an absolute majority. Some of the factors in favor of this outcome:

* Aging European population. Old people don't make street fighters.
* Large, disaffected Muslim lumpenproletariat, ready for a charismatic leader to mold it into storm battalions (or should I say shahid brigades).
* European pacifism. Look at any picture of the Spanish peace marches after 3/11. Do I need to say anything else?
* Rigid class structure. The elites in several countries seem to be interested in manipulating the people rather than leading them. For example, I am consistently flummoxed by the cynicism of the ENArques in France, the tired acquiesence of the masses (pointed out by Babson above), and the seeming impossibility of motivating anyone to change the status quo. I cannot envision the masses in France, Spain, Italy, etc. going to the street to defend the existing order.

I agree with the consensus here, first put forward by PD, that the Islamist center or gravity (per Clauswitz, the source from which all enemy power flows) is that 40 km strip along the Persian Gulf under which lies the oil. But in the past few months, I have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the _decisive point_ in the immediate battle is Europe. We simply cannot allow the Islamist enemy to gain control of the capital, knowledge base, resources, nuclear weapons, and technology of Europe. They will squander those resources quickly (as they did 1,500 years ago) but the mere possession will give the Islamist movement 1-2 more generations of life from which to challenge the US before decline sets in.

Islamist victory in Europe does not guarantee defeat for the US, but it would make victory much more difficult. I have grown especially concerned about the former Soviet Union. Spain-level birth rates coupled with Third-World mortality rates and massive emmigration seem to indicate complete societal collapse within a generation. The question I keep asking myself lately is whether Chechnya is a legacy of Imperial Russia and the Soviet Union or whether it is the shape of things to come as hundreds of millions of land-hungry Muslims look eagerly northward.

Posted by 11A5S 2005-01-07 2:13:03 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:13:03 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 I think CA hit it on the head:

Europe is much different today than in the past. Few believe in God, most believe in self aggrandizement.

For cultures it doesn't really matter what transendence it holds but to survive, a culture must have a transcendent belief. The Muslims believe in Allah, the Euros no longer believe in anything. In the past they did and that made it an even match. We still do and that's why we're resisting.

Sink or swim? This tub's been sinking since at least July 1, 1916. We've tried, but she's taken on so much water there's no saving her. But the process is so subtle there won't be a ripple when the last bit goes under.

Interesting how powerful something that has no material presence can be.

Posted by r king 2005-01-07 2:13:33 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:13:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#42 Babson,

Of course it's a complex situation with causes that combine cultural, economic, political factors, plus the particular countries of origin for the muslim immigrants and the particular responses to immigration of various European host countries. Turks in Berlin are quite different from Moroccans in Amsterdam, who are different from Pakistanis in Bradford UK etc.

That said, it's quite clear that European muslims generally tend to be far more alienated from the larger society than their US counterparts, and this alienation tends to be greatest in the depressed neighborhoods surrounding the big European cities. The one factor that holds across country after country, regardless of national origin, is the very high correlation between radicalism and welfare or dole dependency.

Of course there are well-paid and satisfactorily employed muslim radicals in the US. But as a % of our muslim population they're far lower than in Europe, because for the most part people come to this country in order to build a business or a career, not to agitate on behalf of political causes or shit on their neighbors. It's not that the penalties for the latter are higher in the US than in Europe-- if anything, we're much more lax than, say, the French police and judiciary, whose powers make the Patriot Act look like sunday school restrictions-- but that the rewards for hard work and assimilation are vastly higher in the US.

We attract strivers; they attract resenters. Until they figure out why that's so, the Euros will be on the defensive. And, I would argue, doomed to fail.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 2:15:46 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:15:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 sigh...depressing. Very good points. Very depressing. It never really ends does it.

I think it was possible for us to save Europe from the Nazis, the Communists and even from Islamists. But I don't think that it is possible for us to rescue them from themselves.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 2:16:59 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:16:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 lex, They attract strivers too. They just don't reward them. So they are turned into resenters and for that they're rewarded by the socialist states of Europe.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-07 2:19:46 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:19:46 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 I think lex nailed the problem square on the head.

When you have socialist governments all too willing to give money to immigrants to form a surplus pool of labor, to subsidize industries of Europe, coupled with declining indigenous birth rates, you breed resentment, from all classes of people.

Were the government of Europe to have a moment of clarity, dismantle their welfare structures, lower taxes and build a strong national defenses, the Muslim problem would evaporate within a matter of months.

Muslims would see they are not second class citizens and that the government is out of the way.

In fact, I think it is the only way to stop Europe from becoming an Islamic superstate.

Posted by badanov 2005-01-07 2:20:04 PM|| [http://www.rkka.org] 2005-01-07 2:20:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#46 11a5s-Very profound regarding Russia and the Chechnya situation. Great point and even more frightening. Fighting Muslim incursions both ideologically and militarily will be the greatest challenge facing democracies and secular governments alike over the next century. Allies may become strange bedfellows. Who can't draw at least "some "comparisons between Slodoban and Charles Martel.

Posted by Rightwing 2005-01-07 2:21:33 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:21:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 Sarkozy's ridiculous attempt to co-opt French muslims with a muslim "parliament" and other statist institutions shows Euro-cluelessness at its worst. Their thinking is that the way to dampen radicalist and separatist ardor is to create state-dominated imams and other elites who will, I suppose, channel such frustration in healthy directions, whatever that means. Probably into rallies against Les Juifs.

What's eerie about this is how it mimics almost exactly the fascist corporatist approach to controlling social groups pursued by Mussolini in the twenties and copied by the National Socialists to the north a decade later. The goal is for independent, powerful social institutions-- labor, the Church, industrial groups-- to come under the control and direction of the state, which allows those groups' leaders a measure of autonomy so long as they keep the state's minders happy.

This is destined to fail. Any self-respecting muslim will of course view the state-sanctioned imams as stooges-- I certainly would-- and in case a democratic state cannot exercise much control over those elites anyway. Patronizing, dumb, above all, feckless.

But of course, it's a lot easier than liberalizing labor markets, cutting back welfare, making capital available to small businesses and encouraging capitalism generally.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 2:24:25 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:24:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 You're on fire lex, keep going.

Posted by JerseyMike 2005-01-07 2:25:59 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:25:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Looking at Europe's drooling and sniveling Socialist system it make me question if there were any winners in the Cold War except the French and their brand of inept Socialism.

Posted by Rightwing 2005-01-07 2:30:43 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:30:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Actually, the Euro approach can work when you have labor shortages and high economic growth, which is why the older generations of Euro muslim immigrants are less radical than the current one. France and other northern countries had very aggressive pro-immigration policies in the decades after the war because they were rebuilding their industrial economies at a rapid clip and had lost a great deal of manpower during the war. In a way, we in the US saw the same phenomenon in the post-Depression era regarding the great black migration north to the industrial centers: relatively peaceful assimilation of dark-skinned, unskilled migrants due to economic expansion and great demand for labor. Which went to shit in the 1970s as steel, autos, dockyard jobs, light factory work, etc all declined in the face of competition from abroad and from the sunbelt.

Of course radical ideologies matter. But they're kindling. The spark for radicalism is structural economic decline; far more important is the oxygen that fuels it: economic dependency, which perpetuates decline and makes radicalism relatively attractive.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 2:32:25 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:32:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 That said, it's quite clear that European muslims generally tend to be far more alienated from the larger society than their US counterparts, and this alienation tends to be greatest in the depressed neighborhoods surrounding the big European cities.

Their alienation is CAUSED by their radical religious ideas, not the reverse. I am not going to hire someone who yowls all day about how the Jews are at fault for their lot in life and how they are going to kill them all, nor I am going to hire some moron whose only way to not feel humiliated as a man is to mistreat women. Don't cafeteria religion and the treatment of women out of this argument because it makes you uncomfortable in self-examination. It is THE reason for some of the problems with Muslim immigration to Europe, take the high rate among Muslims of gang rapes and honor killings in France as two examples.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 2:32:58 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:32:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Typical of our clueless, idiotic MSM that this core aspect of the problem is completely ignored.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 2:33:26 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:33:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 Jules, I take your point: obviously cause and effect are intertwined here, and there's even a dialectic. An employed Muslim professional can be swayed by radical ideas, then quit his profession or otherwise get off track. And of course there are kids who are radicalized long before they enter the labor market.

But this line of thinking doesn't address why this particular generation of muslim immigrants. The older generation of Euro-muslims also was exposed to radical rhetoric, fundamentalist preachers, and images and accounts of the heinous Source-of-All-Evil Israelis humiliating their Arab brethren.

One could I suppose blame it all on the wildfire effect of the intifada from 2000 onward, but this still doesn't explain why the US has seen next to no violence domestically since then and the Europeans an orgy of violence. The best explanation is that muslim radicalism in Europe predated the intifada of late 2000.

So what was it that radicalized Euro-muslims pre-2000? Can it be mere rhetoric and ideology? I don't think so. There is a huge gulf between this generation and its predecessor, and that gulf is economic dependency on the state. The immediate postwar generation was just as culturally backward and fundamentalist, but they came to Europe for jobs, first and foremost, and jobs they received. This generation doesn't give a shit about economic advancement because it was raised in a society where no one really cares about striving to get ahead. White Euros fart around till they're thirty+, then slump off to a slacker's job; muslim Euros likewise slack around, because society encourages them to do so. Their parents didn't have time for radicalism; they were busy working their tails off in Lille and Manchester and Stuttgart.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 2:42:30 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:42:30 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Not to tout the Atlantic Monthly, which requires a subscription, but Niall Ferguson has written an article, entitled, "The Widening Atlantic" which is quite impressive. He identifies three factors for a widening gulf:

1. The basis for cross-Atlantic collaboration ended with the end of the Cold War;

2. The difference in how the US versus Europe views radical Islam. Americans view extreme Islam as the replacement for Soviet communism, while Europe sees Islamic terrorists as a lesser threat, deciding instead to distance themselves from the US, and

3. The "precipitous decline of European Christianity over the past three decades;" where less than 15 percent of people in Germany, Sweden, the Netherlands, Britain, and Denmark
attend church once a month. Nearly half in these countries believe God plays an important part in their lives.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-07 2:48:22 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:48:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 There is a huge gulf between this generation and its predecessor, and that gulf is economic dependency on the state.

We're on the same page with this.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 2:51:59 PM|| 2005-01-07 2:51:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 The last assertion, re Christianity, is false. In their social behavior and their attitudes toward world politics, native-born Americans do not differ significantly from white Europeans; in fact we're converging. Look at family structure: for both white Americans and white Americans, getting married and having children is seen by as many as a third of the population as intolerable burdens. On both sides of the Atlantic, whites are choosing to delay marriage and having children and opt for fewer children when they do. Divorce rates on both sides of the Atlantic are roughly equivalent. Homosexuality is tolerated, feminism entrenched, cohabitation widespread. No major differences here except in religious observance.

The real differences, socially speaking, between the US and the Euros are of course seen mainly in their nonwhite populations: theirs are mainly muslims from the middle east and africa, and ours are mainly latinos and asians who are overwhelmingly Christian in orientation, often much more conservatively so than their native-born Christian counterparts. So to the extent that each of these growing minorities is a swing vote, it will pull them and us in different directions in the foreign policy realm: the Euros will increasingly tilt toward the muslims in the middle east in order to appease their rapidly-growing muslim populations, and we will increasingly re-orient ourselves toward Asia-- US hispanics don't care much for either the Arabs or the Israelis and tend to be very pro-military in any case.

Which brings us to the most crucial divide of all, which Niall Ferguson ignores completely: the absence of any kind of a martial spirit or culture in Europe today. Europe instinctively opposes the use of miliatry force not only because it has no significant out-of-area capabilities but also because every young Euro is raised to equate soldiering with baby-killing. Whereas the vast majority of Americans, whatever race or creed or national origin, view military service as noble and necessary to the survival of freedom. That's a profound gap that no amount of OpEd pieces or change of presidents will close.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 3:02:42 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:02:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 oops, wrong thread. Never mind.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 3:03:53 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:03:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 Lex,

Your statement, "Sarkozy's ridiculous attempt to co-opt French muslims with a muslim "parliament" and other statist institutions shows Euro-cluelessness at its worst. Their thinking is that the way to dampen radicalist and separatist ardor is to create state-dominated imams and other elites who will, I suppose, channel such frustration in healthy directions, whatever that means.", jarred a memory.

That's exactly the same approach the old colonial powers took to try and co-opt the native populations they colonized. My G_d, for a culture so steeped in history, they don't learn much from it, do they?

Posted by Psycho Hillbilly 2005-01-07 3:19:19 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:19:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 They simply cannot grasp that this problem is not a failure of "society" requiring state intervention but the reverse. The US solution is still the best one: provide economic incentives to attract strivers, not resenters, and then leave them alone so long as they abide the laws.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 3:39:16 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:39:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 Lex:

I hate to challenge someone who is so committed in their position, but consider cause-and-effect for a moment.

Now, as for "an absence of any kind of a martial spirit or culture in Europe today," I would suggest that Feruson's point is that the US has been the protector for Europe since WWII. Therefore, this is not a "today" notion. My other point is that during WWII, France was largely a Hitler appeaser, and that Hitler steamrolled through Europe because they had no martial spirit back then either.

The absence of morals and Christianity has been manifested many times over in Europe. For example, last spring, the German government authorized same sex soldiers to sleep together on overnights in barricks. So, if there is (and I doubt that it is true) any commonality with the US on the God and moral issues, I don't see it in the military.

Americans "getting married and having children" has its genesis with the two wage earn families and the advancement of women in the workplace. This began in the early-1970s.

About differences between Europe and the US over Christianity and God, some 60% plus of the US population believe in God and equally high percentages exist for regular attendance at church. This well eclipses the European 15% attending at least once per month.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-07 3:39:28 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:39:28 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Damn Lex - your hot even when your in the wrong thread :).

The truely terrifying thing is that there are those (Mike Al-Moore, the LLL, MSM) who want to turn the USA into another european state. Look at how they want to pander to the 'illegal alien' vote - give them free medical, education, etc.... Also pandering to people on welfare and now they are trying to 'appease' the muslims and terrorists themselves. Dont think so: Just watch the MSM.

Posted by CrazyFool 2005-01-07 3:43:17 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:43:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 Cap'n, I hear what you're saying on situational morality etc; I guess as a pro-war non-believer I'm just personally loath to accept a rational link between Christianity and foreign policy stands.

Or to put it another way, I've never had a problem fitting into or getting along in social/professional environments on both sides of the Atlantic, whether it's Parisian atheistic colleagues or Texan born-again colleagues, so I tend to think that the differences between both sides are trivial relative to the social-political vast gulf between each side and our neighbors. in other words the we have more in common with the French than we do with the Mexicans or they do with the Russians. It would be far, far easier for a Frenchman to live here than anywhere in Latin America and for a Texan to live in France than anywhere in the former Soviet Union-- even though the Russians, like the French, are almost all atheists and the Mexicans, like us, are for the most part devout Christians.

So to my thinking the cause of the transatlantic undamentally be the belief or lack thereof in God

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 3:50:38 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:50:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 Amend last stmt: the cause of the transatlantic disconnect cannot be the belief, or lack thereof, in God.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 3:52:36 PM|| 2005-01-07 3:52:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 classic thread. Even though it was on the wrong thread, but I do think that Christianity does play a role in the divide. Christianity promotes ideals of acceptance and Islam promotes domination. Muslims must ultimately choose between their religion and the Christian values of tolerance in their host nations.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 4:05:37 PM|| 2005-01-07 4:05:37 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 I take the long view. The big social-demographic-political developments IMO are two:

1) on both sides of the Atlantic, the decline of the traditional family structure-- not values, but size, relations, structure-- among native-born whites, be they Christian Americans or post-Christian (or whatever) Europeans. See declining birthrate, high divorce rate, entrenched feminism, acceptance of homosexuality, and by far the most important, the aging of the white populations on both sides of the Atlantic.

2) what separates us and the Euros is our non-white, immigrant populations. Ours is (for the most part) well-adjusted, Christian and assimilates fairly easily to the majority protestant liberal capitalist pro-military culture. Theirs is (for the most part) increasingly alienated, overwhelmingly muslim and is hostile to the majority secular liberal accomodationist pro-"peace" culture.

Ours are (for the most part) relatively hostile to state socialism, having survived its ravages in China or India or Vietnam or elsewhere. Theirs are (for the most part) relatively hostile to liberal capitalism, having never seen its beneficent effects either in their home countries or in their adopted ones.

It's our rapidly-growing minority populations that ultimately pull us and the Euros apart. Long past time this nation shifted its attention away from Europe and toward Asia, IMHO. Asian Century now.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 4:18:36 PM|| 2005-01-07 4:18:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#66 Had Kerry been elected last November, the U.S. could have become Europhileistic with regards to U.S. policy and apathy towards growing dangers.

Posted by John Q. Citizen 2005-01-07 4:24:08 PM|| 2005-01-07 4:24:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#67 Using your own definitions for the traditional family structure, let's list their opposites: High birthrates, low divorce rates (which would include difficulty in obtaining divorces or remaining in unhappy or unhealthy marriages), unequal rights for women, bigotry against homosexuals...sounds like quite the golden days. Actually, sounds quite a bit like Islam to me.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 4:32:42 PM|| 2005-01-07 4:32:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#68 Jules, My point is that, outside of Utah, US Christians for the most part do NOT adhere to and impose a "traditional family structure". Family size among white Christians is shrinking, the divorce rate is close to 50%, and most Christian American families (such as the Cheneys) will tolerate an openly gay or lesbian son or daughter.

The paradox is that while we and the Euros are becoming more and more similar, our political priorities and options are diverging sharply.

Europe will without question become more and more muslim and without question will see more and more violence and failed corporatist, Sarkozian efforts to co-opt the muslims. Which means Europe is pretty much a lost cause, as is any effort to create a common front with Europe in the middle east: impossible. since they will for domestic reasons be forced to tilt to the other side. The Iranian farce is a taste of what we can expect.

Which suggest to me that we need to find a way to, over the long term, disengage from the middle east, albeit while aiding Israel's survival. The Euros will only screw us there.

Let's hope that in Bush's second term he begins the long-overdue re-orientation of this country's political focus, diplomatic energy, force structure, and intellectual efforts away from Europe and toward China Japan India Korea. It pains me to say it, but our destiny does not link us to Europe any more.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 4:43:39 PM|| 2005-01-07 4:43:39 PM|| Front Page Top

#69 There are also major issues with Asia-the highest rates of child trafficking and prostitution, child murder based on the gender of the child...But, there certainly seems to be more hope in orienting towards the Pacific than towards Europe, at least in terms of our national survival. How ironic, given Nagasaki, Hiroshima, Vietnam...But I agree-I think we share some common values with Pacific peoples-a strong impulse for civil interaction, hospitality, gratitude to people to whom you are indebted. And we could certainly readopt what we used to have and that they still have-honoring of elders and what they have learned through experience.

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 4:55:33 PM|| 2005-01-07 4:55:33 PM|| Front Page Top

#70 Jules..so true.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 5:00:12 PM|| 2005-01-07 5:00:12 PM|| Front Page Top

#71 Oops-forgot a great work ethic!

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 5:01:32 PM|| 2005-01-07 5:01:32 PM|| Front Page Top

#72 I don't really think the radicalism/antisocial nature of the European Muslim population can be blamed on their economic situation---it might be a confusion of cause and effect.
Muslims, particularly Turks, are valued in many European countries as menial laborers. They take jobs that a high sense of entitlement prevents native Europeans from taking. Now that barriers to their naturalization are being removed, particularly in Germany, one might think that the Muslims would be stepping up.

This is a great commonality between America and Europe--I can go almost anywhere in America, and to the depths of Eastern Europe, and find the same style Chinese restaurants, with food served by people speaking nearly perfect Mandarin. Some portion of the people in all of these Chinese families in foreign nations are almost always in school as tradesmen, or on their way to being academics.

Not so with Muslims.

And the Chinese are just one example. Here in America there are countless minority groups that have proven themselves, triumphed over "disadvantage," and earned themselves a place in society while preserving their ethnic separation. But Muslims seem incapable of adapting to contemporary workplace environments, the rigors of higher education, or even a prima facie integration into society as a whole. Instead, they must have concessions, lattitude, and exceptions for the integration of their religion into public life.

Perhaps it's too easy to get on the nanny-state dole in Europe. Or perhaps, we're looking at it from the wrong way. We hear about the disadvantages and bias faced by Turks in Germany, Libyans in Italy, Algerians in France, and Moroccans in Spain, but isn't it odd that they're all Muslims? Parsimony.

Posted by Asedwich 2005-01-07 5:02:54 PM|| 2005-01-07 5:02:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#73 Asedwich - good point. All contributing factors but I think that what criples Moslems the most is their culture of blame. Look elsewhere to blame your problems. No cultural support for self-reliance or introspection.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 5:09:00 PM|| 2005-01-07 5:09:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#74 Hey lex--glad you mentioned Utah. I may be offered a job there-would someone like me survive there, do you think?

Posted by Jules 187 2005-01-07 5:34:53 PM|| 2005-01-07 5:34:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#75 Utah is a beautiful state...and very little crime. From the people I know that have moved there, the only downside is the feeling of isolation that you get from being on the outside of the mainstream. Society revolves around Mormon activities. Being somewhat of an introvert that sounded good to me, but it could be hard on the kids.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 5:53:02 PM|| 2005-01-07 5:53:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#76
Re #33 (Captain America): The Euros will never confront the gathering danger but will continue to appease, much like France did with Germany during WWII.

When Germany invaded Poland, France immediately declared war on Germany. That's how WWII began.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2005-01-07 6:20:38 PM|| 2005-01-07 6:20:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#77 MS..your argument sounds a bit Vichy to me.

Posted by 2b 2005-01-07 6:42:19 PM|| 2005-01-07 6:42:19 PM|| Front Page Top

#78 When Germany invaded Poland, France immediately declared war on Germany

And that's about all they did, unfortunately. When both Poland and Finland asked for help, they received little.

Posted by Rafael 2005-01-07 7:12:48 PM|| 2005-01-07 7:12:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#79 World War II began when the Germans and Soviets invaded Poland, not when the French started talking. Words were all the French could deploy in an offensive fashion. When it came time for action they (the elites) froze. They're still frozen. That's why the muslims will overwhelm them.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2005-01-07 8:14:54 PM|| 2005-01-07 8:14:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#80 Jules - GO FOR IT. Assuming you're in a metropolitan area-- which I guess includes Provo as w as Salt Lake-- you'll be fine.

My guess is that because of the tech meltdown in California and the resulting dispersion of tech workers into NV UT CO AZ etc, you'll find the southwest to be more purple than red.

We left Silicon Valley for Dallas and have few regrets. The red-blue divide is bullshit. The real divide is between urban core and exurbs. College towns anywhere, regardless of the state, are bluish.

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 8:19:38 PM|| 2005-01-07 8:19:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#81 Ah! French whine. The more it ages, the more it stays the same.

Posted by Captain America 2005-01-07 8:24:18 PM|| 2005-01-07 8:24:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#82 Jules - I lived in Ogden for about 7 years. Joined the Army from there - and took a massive ration of shit from friends for not joining the Jarines - sheesh! No more patriotic place in the country -- Jordan, where Hassoun's family lives is bound to be in embarassment extremis, at the moment -- and yet they don't wear it on their sleeves. They go about their business, hike, ski, and raise their families. Once upon a time, it hurt you somewhat not to be a Mormon - no longer I am told. There are even girls like this - honest - without apologizing for it. Melike and have missed the mountains. Every place has its problems, in Utah it's called winter, lol!

Posted by .com 2005-01-07 8:27:34 PM|| 2005-01-07 8:27:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#83 2b, lex, .com-Thanks. I spent two weeks there for linguistics and ESL conferences and the only thing that seemed weird was that you have to have an i.d. to buy alcohol, and you can't have two drinks in front of you at the same time. But the country and the weather (I'm a snow bunny) was simply beautiful. My brother in law says the ski areas to the east of SLC would be a decent area to live in. He discouraged me from Park City (too Hollywood), but I'm not convinced. :)

.com-LOL-that's me, 15 years ago. You always have the best graphics. You must have had training on computer graphic arts somewhere.

OK-I won't take up any more of the thread on Utah.

Posted by jules 2 2005-01-07 8:44:07 PM|| 2005-01-07 8:44:07 PM|| Front Page Top

#84 Jules - One last tidbit or two. Park City is Party City mixed with snobs - the Vail of Utah. I loved Alta. Another place called Wolf Creek IIRC (ask BIL, heh), but your job will make the call. I always liked Utah Lake area, north beyond Ogden. Check out these links: Utah Maps and the Compare Cities DB in the Cost of Living / Best Places.net section. Best of luck to you - you'll be amazed by how much house you can afford, lol! Think 4-wheel drive...

Posted by .com 2005-01-07 9:02:11 PM|| 2005-01-07 9:02:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#85 .com,

Where would you buy a vacation house in Utah? Seek seclusion, sunshine year round, X-C skiing, aspens and alpine meadows... tx, L

Posted by lex 2005-01-07 9:43:12 PM|| 2005-01-07 9:43:12 PM|| Front Page Top

04:12 diaspora every 79 years
00:15 Mike Sylwester
00:03 .com
23:57 .com
23:55 .com
23:48 nada
23:47 SR71
23:45 AJackson
23:41 .com
23:39 AJackson
23:39 trailing wife
23:37 Shipman
23:35 trailing wife
23:34 gromky
23:16 Pappy
23:15 Atomic Conspiracy
23:13 Dave D.
23:13 Silentbrick
23:02 .com
22:59 Dave D.
22:57 .com
22:52 SwissTex
22:50 2b
22:45 Barbara Skolaut