Article

2004-12-18 Home Front: WoT

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Posted by tipper 2004-12-18 05:59|| || Front Page|| [2 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 Great article, tipper. I discuss this at my website

Money quote:

If the genesis of all this danger -- to our troops abroad and civilians at home -- lies simply in our refusal to leave bin Ladenâs âneighborhood,â doesnât it make sense to negotiate with al-Qaeda and accommodate the terroristsâ desire for U.S. non-interference in the Middle East?

The answer is no. Al-Qaedaâs objective is not limited to U.S. withdrawal from the Middle East. Rather, the network views this pull-out as a necessary prerequisite to the attainment of its ultimate goal: the establishment of an Islamist super-state ruled by the harshest version of Islamic law, primed to re-conquer formerly Muslim lands and pursue an aggressive expansionist agenda.

This broad agenda will not change if the West chooses to negotiate with terrorists and give ground on some issues. Those who favor negotiation and appeasement generally overlook the theological dimension of al-Qaedaâs thought. The group has articulated political grievances and stated some goals, to be sure. Ultimately, though, these aims are rooted in an overall theology that is unlikely to waver. Al-Qaeda leadership and affiliated theologians influencing believe in a return to a pristine form of Islam that they think existed in Muhammadâs time, stripped of all the alleged bida, or âinnovations,â that have crept into the practice of their religion in the intervening 1400 years. This commitment to weeding out bida runs so deep that al-Qaeda members often brand as infidels those Muslims whose practice of the faith allegedly includes too much bida. The worldview of al-Qaeda is fixed; this is not a theology given to adaptation.

Posted by Ptah 2004-12-18 7:48:21 AM|| [http://www.crusaderwarcollege.org] 2004-12-18 7:48:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 History is judged by people who do not waiver in the face of sheer evil .
We will not bow to terrorism in the UK , just as we didnt bow to nazi's in 1940's when every other Eurotrash country rolled over .. The Islamo fruitcakes must know we are strong and do not negotiate with scum .
If boths sides dont waiver then we square up ...and we like a challenge ..End of story IMHO ..

Posted by MacNails 2004-12-18 8:41:38 AM|| 2004-12-18 8:41:38 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 "just as we didnt bow to nazi's in 1940's when every other Eurotrash country rolled over"

It's convenient having a sea separate you from your enemies: It allows you to insult nations not as geographically lucky as you. I'm sure that Poland for example appreciates being called a Eurotrash country that "rolled over".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 9:22:27 AM|| 2004-12-18 9:22:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 the 40's? Poland? nice try. I think he was referring to the "southern eurotrash"

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 9:35:32 AM|| 2004-12-18 9:35:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Whatever Aris . *yawn* . Just recently , you havent even been worth responding to :)

Posted by MacNails 2004-12-18 9:36:00 AM|| 2004-12-18 9:36:00 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 I can't speak for MacNails, Aris, but when I read his comment the country that popped into my mind was Frogistan.

Interesting that you first thought of Poland; that would have never occurred to me.

Guess that's the difference between a sophisticated, nuanced European and an uneducated, simplisme American cow~~boy~~girl.

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-12-18 9:36:45 AM|| 2004-12-18 9:36:45 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 I thought he meant that Euro Trash were the ones that did roll over.... Poland, Greece and YugoSlavia are not among the number.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-18 9:50:59 AM|| 2004-12-18 9:50:59 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 The Wehrmact suffered a mere 150 dead in the invasion of Yugoslavia.

Posted by Ebbavith Gleack2775 2004-12-18 10:01:32 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:01:32 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 The Wehrmact suffered a mere 150 dead in the invasion of Yugoslavia.

Posted by JFM 2004-12-18 10:02:02 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:02:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 Ms Skolaut. I'm with you. France was my first thought, Belgium my second and Greece my third. Britain sent troops to both France and Greece to assist to no avail. The Greek efforts to repay the British have been as memorable as the French. The Polish effort is simply not in the same class.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-18 10:14:03 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:14:03 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 not to mention Il Duce...

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 10:16:05 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:16:05 AM|| Front Page Top

#12 Barbara> Interesting that you first thought of Poland; that would have never occurred to me.

When someone says "every other", you must think of "every other". And see where it doesn't apply.

I thought he meant that Euro Trash were the ones that did roll over

On my part I thought he meant Eurotrash as your common substitute-for-continental-European insult.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:19:17 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:19:17 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 The ROLLING OVER that matters took place prior to September 1, 1939. (though yes, the Frogs surrendered as quickly as they could when it came to it). But it's the pre-September '39 period that is analogous to today.

THAT period, as Japan, Germany, Russia and Italy grew ever more oppressive and conquest-hungry was when the world AND AMERICA went into deep-denial. A lot of the world and a lot of AMERICANS are in such denial today!

Bin Laden issued his "letter to the world" a couple years ago. He's real clear about what he wants/needs us to do: "KNEEL or DIE". The Jews don't even get the "KNEEL" option...they just get to die. I keep wondering what part of Bin Laden's diatribe people have trouble understanding?!?

Posted by Justrand 2004-12-18 10:19:29 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:19:29 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 Bin Laden issued his "letter to the world" a couple years ago. He's real clear about what he wants/needs us to do: "KNEEL or DIE".

That, more or less, was one of my first thoughts as I watched the WTC come down: "Oh, great, another asshole wants us to worship his fucking deity."

Posted by Dave D. 2004-12-18 10:27:39 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:27:39 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 I think they understand, they just don't wanna let that "kneel or die" thing disrupt the worldview and lifestyle they've built up so precipitously. After all, somebody else will sacrifice to protect them and their right to criticize....

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 10:27:42 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:27:42 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 France was my first thought, Belgium my second and Greece my third.

Half a million dead Greeks appreciate your always selective memory.

JFM> "The Wehrmact suffered a mere 150 dead in the invasion of Yugoslavia."

The Yugoslavian resistance may have played a great part in Hitler's crucial delay in launching his attack on Soviet Union. For nations that supposedly "rolled over", they did their part in winning us the war.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 10:29:26 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:29:26 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 well rolling over was always easier when you had collaborators and willing communists, right Aris?

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 10:34:57 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:34:57 AM|| Front Page Top

#18 Belgium didn't foll over, they got rolled over. They got complacent, true, but those that could fight did.

The French could have invaded Germany from day 1, yet chose to hope that it would all pass by without violence. They layed there with their bellys showing and got gutted for it. Then they decided it was worth resisting (some of them).

Austria was too close to Germany from the get-go.

Czechoslovakia got sold for empty promises, but did not resist when appropriate (better to die with a pile of enemies around than to stand the firing squad).

Romania, Hungary come to mind for rolling over.

Greece did not roll over, put up a good fight and delayed the Wermacht (but Italy is to blame here as well . . . for getting their butts kicked).

Oddly enough, Italy (active Axis) is now working with us. Germany is reluctant to be involved (understandable with their track record in the last century). Switzerland is taking its usual stand (not our problem). France is also taking its usual stand . . . there is no problem big enough that it requires action until there are enemy troops menacing Paris.

Spain is actually the biggest dissappointment. They got hit by the terrorists and think that rolling over will do anything to save them in the end. They claim to have stood up to terrorism for many years . . . but they have never done much to discourage ETA, either. Content to let the problem stew as long as things never get too bad. This is the country that really betrayed themselves.

Posted by Jame Retief 2004-12-18 10:52:24 AM|| 2004-12-18 10:52:24 AM|| Front Page Top

#19 Frank G> Still haven't learned anything have you? Poor googling results I'm afraid. "When you had collaborators and willing communists"?

Dude! When we "had" collaborators? You can't even see the ludicrousness of this phrase, do you? Yes, I'm sure we also "had" child molestors, wife beaters, rapists, lepers, and all other kinds of people that every other nation in the world has also had. But googling a piece about communists being willing to take in slav-Macedonian collaborators and seeing this as a condemnation of Greece rather than a condemnation of the communists -- that's really a poor show.

Atleast you could have tried to find a page about Greek collaborators -- it's not as if I ever claimed none of them ever existed.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 11:08:15 AM|| 2004-12-18 11:08:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#20 The ROLLING OVER that matters took place prior to September 1, 1939. (though yes, the Frogs surrendered as quickly as they could when it came to it). But it's the pre-September '39 period that is analogous to today.

Justrand nailed it. Nazi Germany's neighbors rolled over or did nothing when they saw the threat. When they finally reacted they were weak and unprepared to meet the challenge of Nazi Blitzkreig.

Now we face a similar challenge in the ME. Two religious fanatic regimes with unprecidented wealth to buy any weapon of mass destruction that they wish or to finance any mischief are doing it right now. The world has financed its own destruction with petro dollars or euros or whatever.

Negotiation with True Believers of Islam that have been given the green light by their book to lie to infidels is madness. This is 30's Europe all over again.

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-12-18 12:13:58 PM|| 2004-12-18 12:13:58 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Arisâ goals are deconstructionist in nature. If he can influence toward an anti-American ideology, heâs done his bit. Heâs said so himself. Thatâs it on Aris.

About the article:

I believe the drive to compensate for sexual abuse is quite prevalent in the sociopolitical constructs of the Islamofascists.

Example: âYou must choose between two ways of dealing with Muslims -- either on the basis of respect and mutual interests, or treating them as if they were legitimate spoils, pillaged lands, and permissible sacrilege.Â This is your problem, and you have to make your own choice.âÂ

Reflected here is the dire need for ârespectâ and a vague cry for a repair of grievances that are outside the bounds of the political--their references to âspoils, âpillaged landsâ and âpermissible sacrilegeâ are other clues as to what they are really talking about. There is also an interesting and rather underdeveloped attempt to place blame and assign responsibility for the âabuseâ in the statement âThis is your problem, and you have to make your own choice.â

âThe obvious way to redress the perceived harms that were inflicted by the collapse of the old caliphate (the Ottoman Empire) is to establish a new one . . .
bin Laden âurged Muslims to find a leader to unite them and establish a âpious caliphateâ that would be governed by Islamic law and follow Islamic principles of finance and social conductâÂ . . . Al-Zawahiriâs treatise explained that the goal of al-Qaedaâs jihad was to establish a religious state throughout the Muslim world and âreinstate its fallen caliphate and regain its lost glory.â

The desire to establish a new kingdom to correct the damages done by the âcollapse of the old caliphateâ and the proposed âreinstatementâ of a âfallen caliphateâ can only refer to their need to correct their own abused sexuality and sexual identity, and their desire to âregain lost gloryâ and to reinstate their the âfallen caliphateâ amounts to the very same desire to âundoâ the effects of sexual abuse.

I donât think the psychological and emotional drive toward personal recovery, coupled with a religion/political authoritarian structure that promises to deliver on that need, should be taken lightly. The most dangerous âpoliticiansâ are the ones who are using the world stage in an attempt to compensate for personal grievances. The Islamofascists cannot realize that a supposed political solution will not come close to solving their actual problems. We should realize that they cannot, and will not, stop. The damage done to the psyche through sexual abuse creates unrelenting constructs that demand redress. They will continue this, and it will help if we realize that they will continue.

Unfortunately, we will have to defend ourselves (unwaveringly) in the face of their pathetic and doomed attempt to right personal wrongs emanating from their collective childhoods.

Posted by ex-lib 2004-12-18 1:05:56 PM|| 2004-12-18 1:05:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#22
Re #18 (Jame Retief)
The French could have invaded Germany from day 1, yet chose to hope that it would all pass by without violence. They layed there with their bellys showing and got gutted for it.

The UK and France warned Germany that they would declare war if Germany attacked Poland. Immediately after Germany attacked Poland, the UK and France declared war on Germany.

At the time that the UK and France declared war, they had endured almost a decade of a major economic depression. During that decade, government revenues fell deeply, and government budgets were greatly redirected from military to social-support programs.

In response to Germany's growing threat, the UK and France began to significantly increase their military expenditures and war planning in about 1937. The rebuilding of military capability had made significant progress by the time they declared war, but they were not yet ready to attack into Germany. Such an invasion required the assembly of an overwhelming force that the UK and France simply did not have at that time.

Eventually, yes, Germany did attack France and defeat the UK and French military forces there. I am not aware, though, that any serious historians have explained that defeat along the lines that "they layed there with their bellys showing and got gutted for it."

I'm not sure where Jame Retief gets his explanations for historical events. He seems to have strong emotions about the events, and his explanations seem to manifest themselves out of those emotions. His historical knowledge seems to be very scant.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-12-18 1:43:18 PM|| 2004-12-18 1:43:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 I, too, wonder why they call it the Phoney War.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-18 1:56:01 PM|| 2004-12-18 1:56:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 actually Aris, I would expect a statist EUnik like you to appreciate the rigid social order brought by the Nazis. No dissent, no exceptions....sounds positively EUnish

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 2:07:02 PM|| 2004-12-18 2:07:02 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 Everything you write in an attempt to excuse the lameness of the Allies' military powers can equally be applied to Germany, Mike. Do you think we're all idiots, or what? And as for:

Such an invasion required the assembly of an overwhelming force that the UK and France simply did not have at that time.

Germany didn't wait for that. The Allies had more men and more and many better tanks. The armour advantage was to be wasted due to tactical inadequacies, but that wasn't known to Allied commanders at the time. The Germans only had a numerical advantage in the air. Arguably that made the sides roughly even, but the threat of German air strength ought to have made the Allies more inclined to make the first strike rather than less. So assembly of an overwhelming force is a meaningless red herring on your part, and doesn't excuse the effectively supine behaviour of the Allied forces, the French in particular. Are you trying to deceive, or is your historical knowledge just scant?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-12-18 2:12:23 PM|| 2004-12-18 2:12:23 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Thank God for Chamberlain, it gave the UK the breathing room it needed for France to be overrun.

Posted by Shipman 2004-12-18 2:14:57 PM|| 2004-12-18 2:14:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 "Thank God for Chamberlain, it gave the UK the breathing room it needed for France to be overrun."

LOL. It also ensured that the Allies could begin killing Nazis the very moment they landed in Normandy, instead of having to wait til they'd crossed the Rhine...

Posted by Dave D. 2004-12-18 2:20:14 PM|| 2004-12-18 2:20:14 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 of course, the above was meant with all due respect

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 2:20:15 PM|| 2004-12-18 2:20:15 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 The Poles fought bravely, but had an enemy on both borders - Germany to the west, Russia to the east. They also had absolutely antique military equipment. The French hid behind the Maginot line, thinking they were safe. The Germans simply ran through Belgium, as they had in 1914. The French collapse on all fronts resulted in the debacle at Dunkirk. The British saved their troops, but lost several divisions' worth of equipment. As for the Germans invading Yugoslavia and only losing 150 people, that may be true. The resistance AFTER invasion cost them several thousands, and tied down at least three divisions the Germans desperately needed elsewhere. The Danes and Norweigans rolled over. The Danes had no choice, the Norweigans were betrayed by members of their own nation. Greece was crushed by overwhelming force. The biggest mistake the Germans made was to act like conquerors in Russia, instead of liberators. None of this, however, has anything to do with the Middle East, or Islam. The overriding factors in the current war is the insistance by one group of wild-eyed fanatics that they have the RIGHT to conquer and do as they please, and everybody's just supposed to roll over and let them get away with it. The "second caliphate" to them is some kind of sacred right. That's BULLSHIT. It's time to show these people that the only way to get respect is to earn it by acting like civilized human beings. Anything less will result in their being totally destroyed. There is no middle ground, no compromise. Either the nations of Islam learn to live in peace with their neighbors, or they cease to exist.

Posted by Old Patriot 2004-12-18 3:23:26 PM|| [http://oldpatriot.blogspot.com/] 2004-12-18 3:23:26 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 OP - Door #2 is beginning to look good....

Posted by Barbara Skolaut 2004-12-18 3:42:45 PM|| 2004-12-18 3:42:45 PM|| Front Page Top

#31
Re #25 (Bulldog): Everything you write in an attempt to excuse the lameness of the Allies' military powers can equally be applied to Germany ... and doesn't excuse the effectively supine behaviour of the Allied forces, the French in particular.

The UK and French should have and could have fought more effectively, but that does not mean that they didn't resist Germany's aggression at all. They declared war on Germany and went to war against Germany and eventually participated in the defeat of Germany. All that shouldn't be forgotten.

After World War One, Germany remained angry about the outcome while the UK and France were basically satisfied. Germany was much more resolved and determined to fight again. Germany was more aggressive with regard to borders and territory within Europe.

Germany did not have colonies abroad that it had to militarily defend, as the UK and France had.

Also, by 1930 Germany had become a one-man dictatorship, while the UK and France were democracies.

For those reasons, Germany was eventually able to attack with greater surprise, resolution, and effectiveness. At that point of the war, Germany simply outfought the UK and France. That does not mean, though, that the UK and France did not fight against Germany -- that the UK and France were "supine".
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-12-18 4:07:57 PM|| 2004-12-18 4:07:57 PM|| Front Page Top

#32
Re #29 (Old Patriot): The French hid behind the Maginot line, thinking they were safe.

France, along with only the UK, declared war on Germany immediately after Germany invaded Poland. France's determination to go to war against Germany had built up during the previous two or three years. Given France's overall situation and available resources during that period, the decision to invest heavily in the Maginot Line was reasonable. France's intention was use the Maginot Line as a fortress from which it could strike out at Germany at times and places of its own choice.

France initially intended to extend the Maginot Line north along Belgium's east border. Belgium initially agreed to that arrangement, which included military plans whereby Belgium would allow France to concentrate French forces along that sector in case of war between Germany and France. In the months before the war broke out, however, Belgium wavered in its resolve. France therefore had to belatedly establish a second fortified line along Belgium's west border too.

France did not foresee Germany's new ability to concentrate modern mobile, armored forces, to punch through one part of the Line, and to rapidly destroy France's rear areas. At various points in the war, each country that participated was variously surprised and sometimes overwhelmed by opponents' abilities and tactics.

In that regard, France was not unique, and the USA was not an exception.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-12-18 4:25:53 PM|| 2004-12-18 4:25:53 PM|| Front Page Top

#33
Re #29 (Old Patriot): It's time to show these people that the only way to get respect is to earn it by acting like civilized human beings. Anything less will result in their being totally destroyed. There is no middle ground, no compromise. Either the nations of Islam learn to live in peace with their neighbors, or they cease to exist.

That's just blow-hard tough-talk. "These people" are many, many millions of people. They are not completely uncivilized. They all are not to blame for the actions of their most radical individuals and groups.

They are not going to be totally destroyed. They are not going to cease to exist.

There is middle ground. There is compromise.

It does feel good to rant, though, doesn't it?
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-12-18 4:40:31 PM|| 2004-12-18 4:40:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#34
Re #27 (Dave D): It [Chamberlain's performance] also ensured that the Allies could begin killing Nazis the very moment they landed in Normandy, instead of having to wait til they'd crossed the Rhine...

Don't be so sure that if the UK had declared war against Germany when Germany moved troops into the Rhineland in 1936 that Germany would have been defeated. The UK [and France too] wasn't ready to fight such a war then. A premature war against Germany well might have ended in a fiasco that might have decisively discouraged the UK and France and encouraged Germany.

After Germany moved its troops into the Rhineland in 1936, the UK and France began major efforts to improve their military capabilities and their military cooperation for a future war against Germany. Because of those efforts, the UK and France eventually felt much more ready to fight against Germany in late 1939.

It's just a fantasy that if the UK and France had simply resisted the Rhineland occupation, then Hitler would have been discredite, the German generals would have removed him from power, and then World War Two would have been easily prevented. Sure, it might have happened that way. It also might have happened that the the hawks in the UK and France would have been decisively discredited and would have lost practically all influence.

If you're not ready to fight now, then it might be better to wait and spend your time and resources getting ready to fight later. That's what Chamberlain did.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-12-18 5:04:10 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:04:10 PM|| Front Page Top

#35 actually Aris, I would expect a statist EUnik like you to appreciate the rigid social order brought by the Nazis. No dissent, no exceptions....sounds positively EUnish

When I call you an enemy, Frank, that's exactly the kind of moral depravity in you I'm referring to. If you'd met me and slashed me with a knife I don't think I could be much more angry with you than I am right now.

"Statist"? I'm afraid that I'm probably much more liberal than you. And by liberal I mean the actual meaning of the word.

But keep on calling me a Nazi when you've been defeated in any argument of wits or logic or factual information. *That* will shut down discussion in a hurry, you coward and moral midget.

ex-lib> "Arisâ goals are deconstructionist in nature. If he can influence toward an anti-American ideology, heâs done his bit. Heâs said so himself."

I "have said so myself"? Quote with link and reference, or immediately recant you vile and slanderous bastard.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 5:28:20 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:28:20 PM|| Front Page Top

#36 Mike Sylwester

Go on Google and type "French Military victories" anf click on the first link

Posted by SwissTex 2004-12-18 5:45:13 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:45:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#37 I did say all due respect. Thanks for your reply

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 5:48:17 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:48:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#38 I hope you get tortured to death, Frank. With "all due respect".

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 5:49:42 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:49:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#39 Merry Christmas to you as well ;-)

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 5:50:27 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:50:27 PM|| Front Page Top

#40 May they be your last.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 5:51:38 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:51:38 PM|| Front Page Top

#41 and a happy New Year.

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 5:53:36 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:53:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#42
Re #36 (Swiss Tex):

Here's another interesting link.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-12-18 5:57:48 PM|| 2004-12-18 5:57:48 PM|| Front Page Top

#43 Napoleon was Corsican

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 6:04:55 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:04:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#44 Web Wide Blogging presents the tag team of Aris & Mike. Can they hit triple digits on a Saturday night? Keep reading tonight's featured postto find out.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-18 6:06:47 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:06:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#45 I hope someday you marry a girl just like yourself, Aris

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 6:08:31 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:08:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#46
Re # 43 (Frank G): Napoleon was Corsican.

That was a long time ago. Now the entire family is based in New Jersey.
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Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-12-18 6:13:40 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:13:40 PM|| Front Page Top

#47 pretty good, Mike :-)

but reading down I find this disturbing news:
The other, NapolÃ©on-Lucien (1803-72) returned to France during the 2d Empire, after having married an American, Caroline Georgina Fraser, and his posterity still lives in France, bearing the title of prince Murat????

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 6:19:18 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:19:18 PM|| Front Page Top

#48 Oh ho! Frank detects a triple team as the evil Murat makes an unannounced appearance.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-18 6:25:11 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:25:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#49 Mrs Davis, when you opt for a laugh, you keep on having the nasty habit of not caring about truth or falsehood instead. Blame *me* and Mike, instead of Frank's continuing trollery?

Your choice and indicating your character.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 6:48:06 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:48:06 PM|| Front Page Top

#50 Frank, I'd love to team up with you, but I've got to make a pickup at the airport.

Aris, Easy on the Ouzo, baby.

Posted by Mrs. Davis 2004-12-18 6:53:16 PM|| 2004-12-18 6:53:16 PM|| Front Page Top

#51 advice: leave Mrs. D alone - she's too much for you, Aris

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 7:00:01 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:00:01 PM|| Front Page Top

#52 Why don't you kill yourself, Frank? I *would* like to know what keeps on motivating the life of a miserable specimen of humanity such as yourself.

Does trollery and the cheap amusement you get out of it become a worthy substitude for warm blood in your veins, or any shred of decency in your conscience?

And ex-lib!! I keep on expecting proof on the blatant slander you just uttered. I'm gonna also be asking it in other threads you may frequent, until you come forth with your evidence or you apologize for the lie. Slander is not forgotten or forgiven without an apology.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 7:07:43 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:07:43 PM|| Front Page Top

#53 BTW - you need to update your homepage

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 7:07:59 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:07:59 PM|| Front Page Top

#54 Do I? Why? I don't feel any great need towards it.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 7:10:44 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:10:44 PM|| Front Page Top

#55 just a helpful hint, knucklehead. May 2004? Jeebus

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 7:18:05 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:18:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#56 Just a helpful hint, asshole boy -- my site's a static page, not a journal or a blog. It's a collection of fannish pursuits and info I've cared to gather over the years or of stories I've written.

As such it's updated whenever I have the mood and time to update, and until then its kept up, serving its purpose as is.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 7:23:29 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:23:29 PM|| Front Page Top

#57 asshole boy? From a Greek?
Bwahahahaha!

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 7:29:05 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:29:05 PM|| Front Page Top

#58 How original.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-12-18 7:33:55 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:33:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#59 Valium anyone ?

Posted by MacNails 2004-12-18 7:37:04 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:37:04 PM|| Front Page Top

#60 oooh the joy:P

Posted by MacNails 2004-12-18 7:42:49 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:42:49 PM|| Front Page Top

#61 Don't let him get to you, Frank. I'm sure his buttplug is just irritating him a little tonight.

Posted by Angash Elminelet3775 2004-12-18 7:44:17 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:44:17 PM|| Front Page Top

#62 get to me? LOL - I'm enjoying it. Sometimes I worry that I enjoy it too much. But then, I get over it :-)

OTOH: I did kick in guilt money via paypal to Master Fred to cover my excesses

Posted by Frank G 2004-12-18 7:49:56 PM|| 2004-12-18 7:49:56 PM|| Front Page Top

#63 :)

Posted by Angash Elminelet3775 2004-12-18 11:44:55 PM|| 2004-12-18 11:44:55 PM|| Front Page Top

#64 never mind the valium, Talisker, baby

Posted by lex 2004-12-18 11:46:25 PM|| 2004-12-18 11:46:25 PM|| Front Page Top

#65 Being a half-breed Amerikkkan, and having spent some of my finest hours in life with other half-bred mongrels (God I love America!), I feel uniquely qualified to spot an embittered self-selected outside loser in a nanosecond : Areee.

I recall a 1985 journey to the "cradle of Western Civilization," where about 40% of my encounters dealt with how Saudi concubines were far preferable to my mongrel Yanqui presence. All the while P3's and the dollars they dropped were safely mocked, and accepted, by the 40%.

Think Ottoman Greece, useless whiner.

Live what you wish.

Pursuit of happiness, Areeee.

Posted by Red Lief 2004-12-19 12:38:58 AM|| 2004-12-19 12:38:58 AM|| Front Page Top

00:38 Red Lief
00:15 Floting Granter5198
23:59 SC88
23:58 lex
23:56 Poison Reverse
23:53 Sock Puppet of Doom
23:53 lex
23:47 lex
23:46 lex
23:45 Frank G
23:45 trolling for allen
23:44 Angash Elminelet3775
23:44 lex
23:44 Aris Katsaris
23:43 True German Ally
23:42 lex
23:40 Wo
23:40 True German Ally
23:40 lex
23:39 True German Ally
23:38 trolling for allen
23:37 Frank G
23:36 Frank G
23:35 Aris Katsaris