Article

2004-11-25 Europe

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Posted by tipper 2004-11-25 12:27:28 AM|| || Front Page|| [1 views since 2007-05-07] Top

#1 I think I might have the A.N.S.W.E.R. Funded by communists.

Posted by Attaboid 2004-11-25 1:20:54 AM|| 2004-11-25 1:20:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#2 Bush: "I've got a good relation with Vladimir. And it's important that we do have a good relation, because that enables me to better comment to him, and to better to discuss with him, some of the decisions he makes. I found that, in this world, that it's important to establish good personal relationships with people so that when you have disagreements, you're able to disagree in a way that is effective."

Instead of the article bizarrely finding a way of comparing the ineffective anti-war protests to some kind of (supposedly effective) participation that supposedly Western people will have in the Ukrainian demonstrations (oh yeah, give ammo to Yanukovich that it's not really the Ukrainian people that are protesting, that it's foreign Western agents that had to be brought in to increase the size of the crowds), I suggest that Bush shows us the effectiveness of his good relationship with Vlad the Terrible.

Not that *Putin* doesn't find it very effective, I'm sure.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 2:08:07 AM|| 2004-11-25 2:08:07 AM|| Front Page Top

#3 Glad to see you're not expecting the Mighty EU to be able to influence anyone, Aris.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-25 3:37:36 AM|| 2004-11-25 3:37:36 AM|| Front Page Top

#4 Such is life. In Asia we have China and Taiwan. In Europe you have Russia and Ukraine. What's a diplomat to do?? Ms. Rice better re-think whether to take Powell's job or not.

Posted by Rafael 2004-11-25 3:38:08 AM|| 2004-11-25 3:38:08 AM|| Front Page Top

#5 Bulldog> The EU's more powerful or relevant than the UK or France or Germany alone, that's for certain. And it's trying to do more. Why don't you support the European Constitution in order to help it in that effort? Why don't you stop trying to have it both ways, at the same time attacking EU for its weakness and yet opposing any effort to make it stronger? You've already declared your desire to use Trojan horses to destroy the EU, so lack of might isn't your problem with the EU, its existence is.

But perhaps your mocking attack concerning "Mighty EU" shows the moral quality of your character and the importance you give on might as opposed to right. I wish I'd seen one tenth as many condemnations of Russia on your part as I've seen of the EU. But I guess the might of Russia is (according to you) to be sucked up to, rather than opposed.

The EU has already shown the effectiveness of its influence in several places, in Turkey, in Cyprus, in reforms in Bulgaria and Romania. I believe it could have done more in Ukraine, but it wimped out.

Yet Bush has already declared the effectiveness of his relationship with Putin, and he's not yet put his money where his mouth was. The last four years have been the period of vast consolidation of tyranny in Russia and in the neighbouring regions -- *that's* how effective Bush's good relationship with Putin seems to me to be. As effective as Chamberlain's relationship with Hitler.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 10:25:02 AM|| 2004-11-25 10:25:02 AM|| Front Page Top

#6 But perhaps your mocking attack concerning "Mighty EU" shows the moral quality of your character and the importance you give on might as opposed to right.

nice personal atack, loser

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-25 10:27:56 AM|| 2004-11-25 10:27:56 AM|| Front Page Top

#7 Frank are you trying to make this a Frank G thread? I deplore this sort thing. Is it true your Alohas are made by Omar the Tent Maker?

Posted by Shipman 2004-11-25 10:30:23 AM|| 2004-11-25 10:30:23 AM|| Front Page Top

#8 Frank> If someone jabs, then they can expect to be jabbed back.

Bulldog can prove me wrong by reminding me of a time he ever attacked Russia. Neither memory nor google search shows me such an attack but I freely attack both can be flawed.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 10:34:51 AM|| 2004-11-25 10:34:51 AM|| Front Page Top

#9 Freely *admit*, I meant. Freudian slip.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 10:35:27 AM|| 2004-11-25 10:35:27 AM|| Front Page Top

#10 nope, Cooke Street - Costco

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-25 10:41:54 AM|| 2004-11-25 10:41:54 AM|| Front Page Top

#11 Freudian slip, right.

Posted by Raj 2004-11-25 10:48:47 AM|| 2004-11-25 10:48:47 AM|| Front Page Top

#12
Re #5 (Aris Katsaris): Why don't you stop trying to have it both ways, at the same time attacking EU for its weakness and yet opposing any effort to make it stronger?

Well put. And one could also replace the abbreviation EU with UN.
.

Posted by Mike Sylwester 2004-11-25 11:34:33 AM|| 2004-11-25 11:34:33 AM|| Front Page Top

#13 LOL - saw that one coming...

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-25 11:44:21 AM|| 2004-11-25 11:44:21 AM|| Front Page Top

#14 ~~Incoming!~~ UN-coming! Take cover, Frank

Posted by Alaska Paul 2004-11-25 11:54:30 AM|| 2004-11-25 11:54:30 AM|| Front Page Top

#15 Aris and Mike, you are soooo concerned with the weaknesses of the EU and UN...

People who love liberty would rather have a government weakened by constitutional limits (the American model) than multi-national structures strengthened by absence of individual rights and motivated by corruption. That's why lovers of liberty make fun of the EU and the UN.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-25 11:56:15 AM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-25 11:56:15 AM|| Front Page Top

#16 There is still hope for a peaceful, democratic solution. Just like in Serbia in 2000, after the now indicted war criminal Slobodan Milosevic tried to cling to power by making up election results, people are pouring in to the huge demonstrations from the entire country.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the National Archives set aflame in Yugoslavia's "peaceful" transition? And building's ransacked, and Milosevic life threatened?

Aris: FrankG never said Russia needed to be sucked up to. In fact, Rantburg has stated repeatedly that Russia's "might" is in decline on articles concerning it's Navy. And the EU has been on the table for how long now? Seriously, it's hard to make an equal constitution when the countries making up the EU don't respect eachother. You can't blame FrankG for ruining negotiations between European allies on the budget.

Unless FrankG is really working for Halliburton, ordering Bulldog through secret posts here on Rantburg to poison Tony Blair with Hallucigens to make him more suceptible to Bush's ideas. But you didn't hear that from me.

Posted by Charles 2004-11-25 11:59:10 AM|| 2004-11-25 11:59:10 AM|| Front Page Top

#17 ixnay on the alliburtonhay!

Posted by Frank G 2004-11-25 12:00:36 PM|| 2004-11-25 12:00:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#18 People who love liberty would rather have a government weakened by constitutional limits (the American model) than multi-national structures strengthened by absence of individual rights and motivated by corruption.

Except that we're not talking about the EU having a single power over citizens than national government have over them. We're instead talking about the EU having power over national *governments*, which in practice and reality has meant that the liberties of the EU *citizens* are increased since the primary way that the EU has acted in its integration processes is the lifting of the *barriers* that the national *governents* placed. The EU restricts the powers of the *governments*, not the powers of the people, the same way that the federal government of the United States has sometimes acted to stop abuses and violations of rights in individual states or groups of states (e.g. deep South and segregation)

So that whole line of argument is a false diversion on your part. This isn't about rights of citizens. This is instead about the power of the EU in comparison to national *governments*, and about the power of the national veto to block and sabotage the rest of the Union. When a single country can block decisions then the EU is weak. When that single country more often than not tends out to be UK I have a reason to be angry at it for not leaving the EU and letting the rest of the countries alone.

So it's not people who love liberty, but rather people who love nationalistic tyrannies that tend to be the ones that most oppose the EU. Aka, the reason why both communists and neonazis hate the EU.

So, don't even start on the "lovers of liberty" pretend-game. I can see through such Bull (pun intended).

Charles> Aris: FrankG never said Russia needed to be sucked up to.

My comment was to Bulldog. But hey, if Bulldog has any negative comment to make about Putin, let him make it and prove me wrong. Come on, Bulldog, do you consider Putin a supporter of tyrannies yes or no? Comparing CIS and the EU which block is more democratic? And given all that, why is it only the EU that you attack and never Putin, Russia or the CIS?

And I have no idea what you are talking about supposed breakdown of negotiations. The Constitution has already been agreed and signed, and the ratification process has started.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 12:27:54 PM|| 2004-11-25 12:27:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#19 I believe it could have done more in Ukraine, but it wimped out.

I think that means we agree wrt my observation. As for your onanistic ranting - maybe you should keep it short? Straw men don't need to be thirty feet tall, you know.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-25 12:55:22 PM|| 2004-11-25 12:55:22 PM|| Front Page Top

#20 I think that means we agree wrt my observation

No. Your observation was "Glad to see you're not expecting the Mighty EU to be able to influence anyone, Aris" My observation was that the EU was capable but *wimped out* of trying to influence *Ukraine*. Atleast in the past. It's trying to do something now, though too little too late perhaps.

But point remains that unless we ratify the Constitution that'll allow the EU to keep on functioning with more member states, then the EU will be not only unwilling but incapable of bringing Ukraine into the fold or promising anything to that point.

This isn't an unrelated issue. EU *is* the West in the region, will all the good connotations of that word. To weaken EU's capacity to make Ukraine a member-state is to increase Russia's power and to diminish Ukraine's long-term chances for freedom, democracy and independence. If the European Constitution fails ratification or the EU stagnates (and *definitely* if the EU is dissolved) then Ukraine has little to look forward to than further integration with the CIS.

This is a battle between two vast geopolitical arrangement, not just a battle between Yanukovich and Yushchenko. Choose your side Bulldog. Even if you loathe the EU and consider it a tyrant, let us atleast know if you see it as the Hitler or the Stalin of the situation.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 1:06:42 PM|| 2004-11-25 1:06:42 PM|| Front Page Top

#21 Aris sez "we're not talking about the EU having a single power over citizens ... [instead] the EU having power over national *governments*, which in practice and reality has meant that the liberties of the EU *citizens* are increased..."

False. The EU directs member states to change their laws according to its directives, thereby acting on individual people's lives. It persecutes those individuals who try to report fraud in its institutions. It pressures low-tax countries to raise their taxes on individuals who happen to enjoy a modicum of freedom in their private property. It also has an executive and judiciary with absolutely no representative legitimacy.

The rest of your rant, in particular your vile attacks on the UK, demonstrate your lack of respect for freedom -- whether embodied in the rights of individuals or the powers of separate States.

I'd start to believe in a freedom-oriented EU if they adopted a simple, clean Bill of Rights, including the inalienable individual right to own and carry weapons (guns, rifles, etc.).

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-25 2:04:11 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-25 2:04:11 PM|| Front Page Top

#22 we're not talking about the EU having a single power over citizens ...

Why don't you quote that sentence in full, Kalle? I spoke about the EU not having a single power over citizens *that national governments don't already have*. Are you intentionally trying to quote me out of context?

You tried to frame this issue as a topic between big-governent vs individual rights. This is ofcourse bogus. It's about EU vs national governments, and only that.

False. The EU directs member states to change their laws according to its directives, thereby acting on individual people's lives.

Ofcourse -- and if you hadn't intentionally cut my sentence in half you'd have known I never disputed this. The point is that national governments already have that power. And the point that *EU's* laws tend to be towards the increase of individual freedom. How about freedom of movement of people, of goods, of capital, and of services, or freedom of establishment and residence? How about free trade?

It also has an executive and judiciary with absolutely no representative legitimacy.

Really? "Absolutely no" legitimacy? This is really a bad time for you to try and claim something like such.

Have you even heard of the name Buttiglione? Have you?

I'd start to believe in a freedom-oriented EU if they adopted a simple, clean Bill of Rights, including the inalienable individual right to own and carry weapons (guns, rifles, etc.).

If that's your criterion then you can't believe in a freedom-oriented United Kingdom either, since it doesn't have such a bill of rights that includes such an inalienable right either. In fact you couldn't believe in anything freedom-oriented outside the US borders. That's probably the definition of parochialism.

Not to mention that it's ofcourse only the United Kingdom that prevented the Charter of Fundamental Rights from having direct application to the member states, and instead it will remain something that only binds the EU's instruments. So that's a bit ironic.

And also ironic is your mention of "freedom whether embodied in the rights of individuals or the powers of separate States" -- ofcourse I believe in both the rights of individuals and the powers of separate States, and that's why I believe the UK should have the power to leave the European Union, instead of stay and sabotage the rest of those separate States that do want to move forward but are stopped by the UK who in fact DOESN'T respect the inalienable power of separate states to willingly tranfer sovereignty to a common body if they so choose to.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 2:32:08 PM|| 2004-11-25 2:32:08 PM|| Front Page Top

#23 Good God, Kalle! Can't you see he's raving? Just step back, calmly, and walk away...

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-25 2:52:31 PM|| 2004-11-25 2:52:31 PM|| Front Page Top

#24 You keep on failing to condemn Putin's and Russia's policies on the region, Bulldog.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 2:54:13 PM|| 2004-11-25 2:54:13 PM|| Front Page Top

#25 And you keep yabbering crap, Aris. Of course I'd condemn Putin. You really must be some sort of moron to think otherwise.

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-25 2:58:34 PM|| 2004-11-25 2:58:34 PM|| Front Page Top

#26 Not a moron, Bulldog, merely a person who remembers who you have attacked in the past and who you haven't, and wonders about the selectiveness.

Now second question in the effort to reach some agreement: Do you think that West-leaning Yushchenko is a villain or an idiot for wanting EU membership for his country?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 3:05:41 PM|| 2004-11-25 3:05:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#27 This crisis shows one of the few areas in which the West is united, the EU and US are working seamlessly toward the same end, and US power and EU carrots are completely complementary. And yet the Grand Transatlantic Pissing Match begins again. Why?

Two explanations: 1) the Aris principle; 2) (more likely) for the EU mainly, it's all about pissing rights. We're here, we're queer, get used to it! We're big boys now and we're going to handle this by ourselves, so butt out!

Meanwhile, Powell and Kwasniewski patiently, soberly sternly set about solving the problem. Also, note which major EU nation's leader is absolutely silent on this crucial issue that unites the US and EU.... gimme an 'F'...

Posted by lex 2004-11-25 3:25:41 PM|| 2004-11-25 3:25:41 PM|| Front Page Top

#28 Aris, you're dishonest.

The EU has direct, negative and positive impact on individual freedom in Europe. To claim that it only impacts States is ridiculous. The individuals persecuted by the EU because they are denouncing fraud in its institutions are not States, are they?

Free trade existed without the EU, thanks to the AELE (which included Israel and Switzerland). Freedom of movement is a good thing, and btw it already existed in Scandinavia long before the EU pushed it onto the rest of Europe.

As for your hatred of UK resistance to abrogation of the freedom it protects, it's rather telling. If Greece and France want to violate the rights of residents there (note that it's different from citizens), they don't need to ask for permission from the UK. The problem they have is that they want all EU members to always go along with their tyrannical goals.

Finally, where do I --as an EU citizen-- vote to choose the EU executive? never? nowhere? some representation that is.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-25 3:39:47 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-25 3:39:47 PM|| Front Page Top

#29 To claim that it only impacts States is ridiculous.

Oy, vey. I never claimed that. Start reading what I actually say instead of what you imagine me of saying. This discussion can't go any further if you don't do that.

As for your hatred of UK resistance to abrogation of the freedom it protects, it's rather telling

How am I hating the UK when I want it to leave the EU and keep as much freedom as it likes outside the European Union? I hate the UK's effort to stop the freedom of the *other* countries to do what they wish -- I hated it for example when the UK imposed this extremely watered-down Constitution on the rest of us. Once again, start reading what I actually write instead of the echoes in your own head.

Finally, where do I --as an EU citizen-- vote to choose the EU executive? never? nowhere? some representation that is.

EU has a democratic deficit -- too bad that none of the EU's opponents actually gives a damn about it except in deceitful rhetoric. If the anti-EU folk truly cared about the democratic deficit, then they'd have supported rather than opposed all moves made to reduce this deficit. For example why haven't Bulldog or you ever said that you *want* the President of the Commission to be directly elected by the public? I *have* stated that, why do none of the anti-EU folk I meet have?

If you care so much about the democratic deficit, why aren't you supporting the Constitution which for the first time contains processes of EU-wide direct referenda? No matter how small, this Constitution's a step towards improving democracy in the Union.

Why did none of the UK's objections to the Constitution concern a lack of democracy and why did it make no proposals in efforts to increase it?

Because, it's mere *deceit* (though in many cases a self-deceit I guess) that the europhobes' fear of the EU has anything to do with a lack of democracy. You aren't afraid of the lack of democracy, you aren't afraid of the "bureacracy" --- you are simply afraid of the *other nations of the EU*.

Which means that you oppose European unification in *principle*, and which explains why you don't want it improved, democraticized, whatever, you merely want it disbanded.

The problem they have is that they want all EU members to always go along with their tyrannical goals.

Screw you dearie. The so-called "tyrannical goals" of the EU have probably done more for freedom of the Kurds in Turkey than the US invasion of Iraq has done for the Kurds there.

As a sidenote I can't find anything about AELE? Sure you spelled it correctly?

lex> And yet the Grand Transatlantic Pissing Match begins again

Really? Where?

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 4:17:36 PM|| 2004-11-25 4:17:36 PM|| Front Page Top

#30 Not a moron, Bulldog, merely a person who remembers who you have attacked in the past and who you haven't, and wonders about the selectiveness.

Putin doesn't pass 40% of new laws affecting me, does he? Can you see the difference? Please try. I know it's hard for you to understand but the EU is a more pressing concern for me than is the provincial rearguard scheming of the wannabe dictator of an ailing former power. I don't comment on Putin much. You don't comment on Castro much. I don't assume you support Castro. It seems I have to point out again that absence of evidence does not constitute evidence of absence.

Do you think that West-leaning Yushchenko is a villain or an idiot for wanting EU membership for his country?

He's, quite sensibly, choosing the lesser of two evils. I would support him if I were Ukranian. I sympathise with him and his supporters. Me: I do not want to be in a federal union with Belgium, France, Greece, Germany, Ireland, Spain, Portugal.... Britain is not the Ukraine, and has far less to gain, much more to lose, than the Ukraine, when it comes to trading sovereignty with the EU. Get it yet?

Posted by Bulldog 2004-11-25 4:29:00 PM|| 2004-11-25 4:29:00 PM|| Front Page Top

#31 Aris, here's more about AELE (may be EFTA in English?).

For the EU Constitution, I'd rather not see a president, but a triumvirate or small collegial group, following either the Swiss or New Iraqi models. I'd rather see an imitation of the original US electoral college than direct democratic election of a president, Further, my purpose is to promote freedom in a republic through representative government. I oppose democracy, if it means unlimited majority rule.

I would have liked to see public European arguments as thorough and freedom-oriented as The Federalist Papers (and Anti-federalists). Maybe in the next century? or shall we start now?

I don't care what or how the UK may have dealt, or not dealt, with the EU Constitution. I care about freedom. The EU is a force for freedom in a few ways, but not enough to my taste. Hard to avoid when France dominates so much of the EU policies.

I also oppose a Constitution that dictates specific policy details. It should only uphold individual rights, define institutional structures that promote multiple checks and balances to prevent the usual drift of government into tyranny. 10-20 pages should be amply sufficient.

Posted by Kalle (kafir forever) 2004-11-25 5:44:54 PM|| [http://radio.weblogs.com/0103811/categories/currentEvents/] 2004-11-25 5:44:54 PM|| Front Page Top

#32 He's, quite sensibly, choosing the lesser of two evils.

Or perhaps he's choosing the good over the evil.

Well anyway atleast we have an acknowledgement on your part that the EU is not as bad as Putin -- it was rather frustrating to hear EU referred to as practically the worst thing since Hitler.

But given how's nobody forcing Ukraine to become an EU member, (the opposite, EU's seems to be trying to dissuade it from membership -- hence my "wimped out" remark), I wonder why you think independence from the EU wouldn't be a possible and even better scenario.

Kalle> EFTA, which still exists, but Israel was never a part of it. And the EEC was created *first*. EFTA could only function based on the EU (then EEC) framework. My understanding is that EFTA only works through a number of countries agreeing to comply EEC's (now EU's) regulations in regards to trade but having no say in creating these regulations. It's not really that nice a position for countries that value their pride. Which is probably why you don't see long lines of candidates for the position of EFTA membership, you only see such lines for EU membership.

But I'd love to see UK simply an EFTA member again.

Posted by Aris Katsaris 2004-11-25 7:50:04 PM|| 2004-11-25 7:50:04 PM|| Front Page Top

00:22 lex
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